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Wow! Am I hearing right? NTN ski boots will work in hardboot bindings!???!!!!??? This would be nervana! We've been waiting (while salivating substantially) for NTN to get it's issues sorted so we have a boot for Tele', and hopefully (although unlikely) it will work in an AT binding, and with a boot crampon that will cope with the flex. How would snowboard bindings cope with the NTN boot flex?

Nils; why the focus on duck? Wouldn’t we need more positive angles to develop freecarve?<O:p</O:p Softbootsailer/Bobdea…<O:p></O:p> When starting the thread, I asked about 45+ angles because I was looking for the best softboot bindings for high angles....to really examine the cutting edge of the technology; how far the concept could go. I realise, as recommended by several on here, that in making the transition into carving, much lower angles will be more relevant..but I don’t want a binding that restricts to only that; but rather one to enable pushing the limits higher on the learning curve.<O:p></O:p> I prefer to buy kit that doesn’t become redundant when skills grow.<O:p></O:p> I have really found both of your ideas extremely helpful (the drama/outspeak has been an unexpected and additional perk!..love americans!). Bobdea has done a great job warning against retro’ as far as function is concerned (a sound principle), but it is interesting to see what went before (3 strap). ..and sometimes the older stuff disappears before anything better has been developed; due to marketing pressures. <O:p></O:p> ….An example of this resonating with windsurfers here, might be the absence of versatile fast rough water boards when “wide style” developed / took over.<O:p></O:p> While the new stuff opened up learning for beginners, and increased manoeverability and versatility in poor waves / inconsistent winds, there was a decade before anything came close to matching the late 90’s/early 2000's high end narrow fast freeride boards like the Fanatic Bee or mistral Flow for speed and comfort in high winds and rough water. Those boards that do now challenge them are twice the price.<O:p></O:p> I lost count of the number of sailors, unable to come anywhere close to my speed and control offshore, who came up to marvel at my 8 year old boards.<O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> Dano/ others, maybe I didn’t say when I started the thread; but I recognise that hardoots are the business…. spending my savings on Sidewinders and Deeluxe in the euro sales ..to experiment.<O:p></O:p> …But that setup is maybe a tad ambitious after a weeks snowboarding. I want to plan out the tools to steepen the learning curve in the early stages, since I don’t get much time on snow.<O:p></O:p> Learning carves with a softbinding and small angles on a freeride/ freecarve board will ease a rider in, but also, It’s good if kit doesn’t become redundant once a learning stage has passed. Hence the desire to explore options for progression, and versatility at a higher skill level. I.e. Once having dialled carving and able to lay EC carves on a specialised board (e.g. Swoard EC), It will be good to use the kit one progressed carving on to enjoy hybrid performance in soft boots.<O:p></O:p> The pro euro carvers developed the dual specifically for this latter role.<O:p></O:p> Also, yes, I am prejudiced against hardboots for other than high adrenalin EC. They are heavy, they are clutter, it’s a pain to get the liners in and out to dry, and they are a general inconvenience in my lifestyle.<O:p></O:p> I seem to spend a long time changing footwear. Softboots make life easier. Get up 5 am. In softboots, take dogs over icerink yard (boots warm in minus 20 celcius) to check animals /chase off / shoot coyotes, indoors in softboots again to feed dogs and get kit/breakfast, softboots to feed and water stock, drive to hill, board, pick up groceries, round up escaped stock, take dogs out..back to trainers: easy! <O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> Boardski, do you still use AT boots for hardbooting?<O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p> Zoltan, I’ll check those SPis.<O:p></O:p> <O:p></O:p>

Estimate bootout dual with 28.5 mondo softboots (32 cm external) 168 model: 15 degrees=3.8cm 20 degrees = 1.0 cm 175model: 15 degrees = 2.8 cm 20 degrees = zero

Nils, Softboots, Catek freeride pro. Height 180 cm, wt 75kg, learning / progressing carver. No fakie, flakie or flickie (no tricks)!. Freeride/freecarve only. 175 or 168? Jacques recommended 30/15 with risers on 168...but with 32 cm boots (outside) there will be bootout. What's your opinion? Don't worry; I won't come back later for revenge!

OK; Catek replied.

I'll check those boots out Bobdea. Mine are good boots; but not good enough I think. I tried to contact Catek a few times re' ordering.. for a week now without success. I always check it will work first; with uk billing and US shipping address, as I have waited weeks for deliveries that never showed from some US companies. Catek don't reply to emails or answer the phone, and their forum isn't accepting registration! Someone on here was saying they had breakages on F2. Are Catek really up to speed, or are they just complacent / not in need of sales? The only store I found who'd sell them (Donek) have some archaic and laborious system requiring faxed photocopies of credit card and so on. Does anyone know anywhere in the US I can phone right now and get those Catek bindings ordered? I only have a few days.

Dave; thanks for the offer. When did Bomber (?) first make those bindings? Are those in the pic from that year or a later year with mods? Bobdea, you mentioned the Catek (F2?) earlier, Can you rank a few 2 strap bindings in order of what you see as suitability here ?

Love it! ..the american attitude, the volume/ outspeak ! Should have married mine in '83 instead of womanising in europe! She's just the same. Can't wait to move over. lots of sucking going on here though! Maybe I'll get some on Valentines. Nils, I know the table (by heart!). I see it in my sleep! I am 75 kg..on the edge for 175 dual, but 28.5 boots (32outside)..they want me to buy the 175! Too stiff for me, the 175? What are the smallest angles you can achieve on the 175 with your 28.5 softboots? In 5 words, how can you turn that board in a 5-6m radius ? You mean at speed, or slow?

Johnasmo' Sound principle! In the ideal world, specialised of course is best; way to go! I run 36 windsurfs for different waves, winds, sails etc, and 12 different skis...but some get used a whole lot more because they are pretty damn good at more stuff. Travelling by air to the hill for snowsports is restrictive. One set of skis, 2 snowboards and 2 bindings is tops, with boots; even to the US, now they have halved the free checkin. A board that can accept different setups and cover carving and freeride, even on one setup is on my list. I am confused however by Nils comment that early morning corduroy is outside the dual brief. ..Translation distortion perhaps? (Fivat of SWOARD laid EC turns for the camera on a dual 168 with hardboots on groomed piste). ...and yes, we hear again, and again, that the Dual has plenty of flex front-back, but with torsional stiffness sideways. Does this mean we can ride longer lengths with less penalty/ retain more manoeverability for a given length than e.g. BX boards? ...and so get less boot out and lower angles and more versatility with soft boots?? How critical is length for freeride at the extremes of the recommended rider weight range? Nils points to width as the limiting factor; but that's with hardboots and bigger angles. With softboots and lower angles, is length just as restrictive re' manoeverability when not carving? ...or can the longitudinal flex reduce this?

Jees ! some pace here! ...get back from work to ideas, wake up pre dawn and they're still coming. BlueB, ECshredder, softbootsailer, seraph, DrD,Photodad,bigbump ... I'm busy checking out all your suggestions. Thank YOU! Bumpyride.. Would your 3 straps fit mondo 28/28.5? How much are they? I'm a little curious, despite Bobs reservations. Maybe a cheap way to checkout 3 strap. I promised to be home to NH for valentines. Maybe it won't be cool to be drilling and bolting highbacks ?

OK bobdea! Yeah, I'm spent up too. Long dark winter nights are a good time to get the strategy right tho; it'll soon be winter 2010/11 ! So you don't thing freeride manoeverability (non carving) in the tight spots and carving/freeride on lumps would be compromised significantly by the extra board length and stiffness of the 175 at 75 kg body weight?

encouraging!

Bobdea; yes it's a good belt and braces optimum position Johnasmo takes. One question; did you check out the Dual spec before you recommended 175? It's quite a unique board designed for extreme carves if you want with hardboots, and freecarves and freeride on powder and harder with soft.. Or are you basing what you say on a standard freecarver. My softs outside measurement are 32cm, but 10.5 us. The 175 would give me closer to Johnasmos recommended max angles, but I wonder if I'll struggle in chopped up stuff , and to turn tight enough in tight spots.

or accept some rear boot out on the 175 and bring it down to 40/20 or 35/20 ?

Flame away johnasmo ! Much appreciated and v helpful. I suspected as much re' the NXT's, but just wanted to check since someone found them good for carving on the extreme carver forum with the dual..although his extensive experience must help. I 'm glad you confirmed suspicions re' the max likely angles. Carvers almanac suggests below 30 too. Measuring up re' the dual 168, I can manage 32 degrees F and R without overhang, but would want more on the front..say 45. Intending to be 75kg when I'm doing this (right in the middle of the recommended wt range for the 168, but right at the edge of the range for the 175 dual), do you think i'd be better losing some manoeverability (tight spots/trees/freeride fun), and ease of use on bumps with the stiffer 175, for slightly lower angles (maybe 4 degrees less) and better body position, or going with the softer 168 with the larger angles? I'm not interested in freestyle atall, but want only the freeride /freecarve options. You can see the Dual specs on extremecarving.com (PDF there).

Leeho; interesting, thanks. 32 forecast? can't find these.

Rob, The T3 plates will go on the atv immediately, with the T3 "second board kit" on a swoard extreme carver at a later date

A guru! ..Thanks Rob! Way past my bedtime now in UK; you've given me lots to think about here. Where I am coming from- From ideas here, I'd thought to progress carving on the East coast this yr w Catek F2 evos on the seemingly stiff Palmer pulse I have, and w Deeluxe track 700T's on the Prior ATV. (East coast tiny hills / runs, so my day not spoiled when I hit the wall...can always dig out a freeride board / telemark kit from the truck and enjoy the rest of the day; or even pop home for lunch and dial another setup). But in Europe on proper hills, need a board to commit to the whole day (no truck, no home!. Can't return to valley once on top...no chance to change. Fly in with limited baggage (max one board, and Randonnee setup for AT/ski freeride to cover all options). Swoard Dual looks to give the useful flexibility for this sort of trip if setup with soft boots..freeride/carve powder /piste. good in the alps to cover a day on one board. Hardboots would restrict in busy/tortuous/treesprinkled/powder areas/steeps of the mountain + I won't be good enough yet for that sort of terrain in hardboots. The swoard guys recommend soft boots to make the most of the flexibility of the dual, but with 30-35 degree angles, binding choice might make or break that concept. Hence the search. The 3 strap bindings all look a bit primitive..like an old solution. I wonder if some of the newer 2 strap stuff is better.

Thanks blokes. What IS that Dave? Where can I find out more? What do we think of Flow NXT AT and F2 Cinch ctx for eroding the 'low stance angle only' dogma for carving w softboots?

Catek FR2 Pro Limited (now unavailable) looked better than the so-called (flimsier looking) improved Evo version. Anyone got views /experience of these or know where to get the limited edition? What about Nidecker Act Carbon?

Currently Freeride 2 Pro EVO ?

Now that hybrid freeride carving boards have arrived (swoard dual)..does anyone have any good recommendations of soft boot compatible bindings to work with higher positive stance angles e.g. 60F, 45R ?