noschoolrider
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More pictures from Etsu:
Cruising on Beverly Hills - Greg, Shane & Don
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More pictures from Etsu:
1. Dan (looking hungry) and Shane (cooking Coos Bay style)
2. Party in the parking lot
3. Ross & Don on a double date with the 173 Diablo twins
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Thanks everyone I had a great time again this year. Don and Etsu thank you
You’re welcome Ross!
We want to thank everyone for making this gathering so much fun and also thank Shane for the parking lot parties and Eric and Abel for providing the Diablo snowboard demos. For those who could not make it (Russell, Steve P, b0ardski, Galen, Dan in Portland, Max, Buell and Rebecca), hopefully we’ll see you next time.
We had a great time riding and partying with everyone!
Don & Etsu
Here are some pictures from Etsu:
1. Mt Bachelor's eastside backcountry
2. Scott, Randy, Abel, Mike & Carla
3. Ross & Mike
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I had the pleasure of taking a Diablo Composites all-mountain board for a test ride over the weekend and it was so much fun that… I'm still riding it!
Diablo Composites specializes in handcrafted alpine boards, boardercross, big mountain, and powder boards that you can custom order in different lengths, widths, and flex patterns.
The board I tested is 173 cm (which is about 1" taller than me) and it has a 22.5 cm waist. As a 135 pound lightweight rider I was happy to discover this board had a proportionally softened flex pattern (lengthwise), but it was also very torsionally stiff (as in Kessler type of torsionally stiff), which provided excellent edge hold and stability.
With the well balanced softer flex pattern it was easy for me to make tight slalom turns even on steep pitches and the torsional stiffness gave it excellent stability when carving high speed GS and long radius turns. On hard pack the board felt powerful and precise like a race board and in the soft groomed hero snow the board also carved clean and never felt like it was plowing snow (please see the pictures below). I also rode the board in fresh powder and on cut up bumpy narrow runs. It floated effortlessly in the powder (yeah, I'm a lightweight on a big board) and it easily sliced through crud and bumpy snow.
In my opinion, this is a versatile all-mountain board that's designed for carving aggressively with hard boots. If you want one that's focused on powder riding then I suggest you get one with more taper and a slightly softer flexing nose, and also have the torsional stiffness slightly reduced in the leading edge area of the nose. If you want one for carving with soft boots then make sure you order the correct width for your soft boot stance/angles, and you also might want to have the torsional stiffness slightly reduced in the leading edge area of the nose.
The contact information for Diablo Composites is at http://diablocomposites.com
Don
Pictures: Ross and Don with the 173 Diablo twins & me testing the edge hold.
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Is there a way for not eating snow while doing a front carve?
Jasey-Jay Anderson does not have that problem ;)
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I'll be there Wed. night with my GF Carla and we'll be riding Thur, Fri and Sat.
We'll see you all next week.
Randy
Hi Randy,
I owe you some time on the hill and some beers - just sent you an email.
Don
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I'm thinking now about just rolling into town and finding something cheap. Hows everything going with everyone elses lodging. Where you all staying at? I won't try to encroach in on your floor space.
Hi Ed,
One of the best low cost places to stay in Bend is the Rainbow Motel. It's clean and usually about $40 per night.
Don
Rainbow Motel
154 NE Franklin Ave
Bend, Oregon 97701
Phone: 541-382-1821
Reviews:
http://www.travel-library.com/hotels/north_america/usa/oregon/bend/rainbow_motel.html
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Fin has the Ibex cant (same as Burton) for sale at
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Well it's official!!! Chris Klug and Tyler Jewell will make up the USA PGS snowboard team at the Olympics in Vancouver. They will both be using ''Tinkler Flex Control Systems". It has been quite a ride the last 6 months working with the racers. We will be at Mt Bachelor next week training and checking equipment in pr...eparation for Vancouver. GO TEAM U.S.A.!!!!!
Hi Bryan,
Thanks for sharing this!
Anybody know anything about the Mt. Bachelor visit?I'd love to go watch them train.
Hi Evan,
In addition to training and testing equipment next week, I'm sure Chris and Tyler will be at Bachelor for the NorAm event on Thursday and Friday (February 4th & 5th).
Here's the event info from mtbachelor.com:
http://www.mtbachelor.com/winter/activities/events/calendar.html/@@index.html?offset=0#event128
Feb 04, 2010 - Feb 05, 2010
NORAM Race to the Cup
Race to the Cup is the premier NorAm alpine snowboard tour in the U.S. This tour is the springboard for athletes to advance to the World Cup tour.
The Race to the Cup tour will hold events at three different locations this season starting with Copper and moving on to Steamboat Springs, CO Dec. 11-12. The third leg of the series will occur Feb. 4-5 at Mt. Bachelor, OR. The NorAm finals, which bring the circuit back to Steamboat Springs, will wrap up the Race to the Cup tour March 25-26.
All of the top U.S Snowboarding alpine athletes will be competing in the event, including names like Michelle Gorgone (Boston), Tyler Jewell (Steamboat Springs, CO), who represent the U.S. in the parallel giant slalom with multiple World Cup podiums between them. Also competing are Justin Reiter (Steamboat Springs, CO), Adam Smith (Bend, OR), and Vic Wild (White Salmon, WA).
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There is Snowboard dictionary defining damp and snap or something like that.
On a more technical level, damp is a frequency related thing, so you can have a board that is damp and still able to release energy quickly (snap) in the hands of a well versed user. When working with research and development departments of some snowboard companies a checklist with definitions was used to evaluate the snowboards, and some of the industry on snow product testing events also used a similar checklist.
Other relative definitions and checklist items were: <b>Absorption</b> (for the measurement of the amount of absorption of vibrations/chatter/amplitude/frequency), <b>Release</b> (for the measurement of how quickly energy was released), and <b>Rebound</b> (for the measurement of how much energy was returned).
As I remember it, the level of dampness was related to amplitude/frequency and the reduction of energy (in reference to rebound and return/release of energy). At the bottom of one of the rating scales were boards dampened to the point of not returning any energy, which were described as totally damp/dead ('totally damp' and 'too damp' were also referred to as 'dead'). Example: When the design/construction of a new board dampens it to the point where no energy is returned, then it was considered dead (several entry level snowboard designs experimented with this characteristic). At the top of that rating scale were boards that returned a lot of energy (they had a lot of snap/pop), which were considered to be lively.
When there was a balance of dampness with liveliness then a board could have variations of moderate dampness and variations of moderate liveliness. However, in order to have damp and snappy there was a noticeable compromise in the amount of dampness or snap, or both.
Finally, I am at a loss as to why a custom board is not made to the rider's recommendation - miscommunication, I hope. If you want snap, you can get it even if it is a metal board.
I agree with both of those statements.
damp is a frequency related thing
If 'damp' is only 'frequency related' and someone says a board is 'too damp' then wouldn't that only mean 'too much frequency was reduced'? In that relationship, it seems the feedback is too limited and not very valuable/meaningful, so it seems there should be more to it than just frequency.
I was taught dampness has a relationship with amplitude/frequency and with the reduction of rebound and the release/return of energy, and that absorption has a relationship with the reduction of frequencies/amplitude/vibrations/chatter without the reduction of rebound energy. However, those definitions may have changed/evolved, or they may have a different meaning/purpose for some board builders.
you can have a board that is damp and still able to release energy quickly (snap)
Yes, you can have moderate dampness that allows for moderate liveliness with the ability to release energy quickly.
The question is, can you have 'damp and scary snappy'?
The way I understand it, in order to maintain the characteristics of 'scary snappy' the dampness needs to be reduced to a very low level because the opposing energy relationships would be drastically offset. That was the point I was trying to make regarding the comment about a board being "damp but scary snappy".
However, if I am totally wrong about this and someone has or knows of a board that is extremely damp and truly scary snappy then please let me know because I would love to learn more about it.
This is an interesting thread, and I think most would agree, that when people have different understandings of words/terms/definitions, then it is difficult to communicate effectively, and it could be an expensive mistake if - as Bola mentioned - there is miscommunication when someone is ordering a custom board.
<b>Additional Information:</b>
Here is a quote from Sean Martin (Donek Snowboards) that indicates that 'damp' is more than just 'frequency related' (the following quote is from June 1st, 2009 - post #238 in the "Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory"):
<b>Originally Posted by shawndoggy
isn't it the rubber that makes 'em damp, not the metal?</b>
This is very complex issue, but I'll try to shed a bit of light on it.
Most vibrations in boards that are disturbing to the rider happen at a specific range of frequeencies (30-70 HZ). Interestingly enough, the use of titanal laminates alone will eliminate these frequencies. Last season our metal construction had no rubber in it at all. The natural harmonic of these boards is a high pitch ping sound. Those of you who have one have heard them. The metal laminate will basically drive the board's natural harmonic well above the 30 to 70 Hz range.
If you pick up any other manufacturers metal boards, you'll find they make a thud when tapped on. In order to accomplish this, it is necessary to add a fair bit of rubber between the laminates. While the use of metal alone will eliminate those bone jarring frequencies from 30 to 70 HZ, rubber will alter the boards response to exciting forces and dramatically alter how the board feels on snow.
The two materials approach the dampening issue from very different perspectives. The metal alters the natural frequency of the board, while the rubber acts something like a shock absorber you'd find in a car's suspension system.
The new boards I'm working on incorporate the use of both metal and rubber.
Sean Martin
Donek Snowboards Inc.
So, even though the metal in the board eliminates/deflects the undesirable frequencies it still will not make a board damp enough because the metal will not significantly absorb or reduce physical jarring impacts, such as when a board drops down into a race course rut or when it hits the upward slope at the exit of a rut. You need to add rubber to the board to dampen/reduce those types of physical impacts.
Kessler, SG, Prior, Coiler, and now Donek all use rubber in the construction of their metal boards to help assist in making them damp. However, even with two layers of rubber, none of these boards are fully dampened (100% damp) to the point where all vibrations and chatter are eliminated. For proof of this watch the 11/13/2009 Copper Race to the Cup PGS footage in the Video section. In the videos you will see the Kessler and SG boards vibrate and chatter in the ruts of the race course. The boards that have the least amount of chatter are Jasey-Jay’s and Matthew Morison’s Kesslers that have the Canadian Apex ‘canoe paddle’ plate system. One version of this plate system starts just behind the rear binding and extends forward past the front binding - almost halfway to the nose of the board. This system also appears to provide some additional dampening to the front of the board (via adjustable pads) while leaving the back of the board alone so that it can still provide the amount of rebound/snap that it was originally designed for.
Think about it, why do racers need isolating/decoupling plate systems and/or additional external dampening?
Name one snowboard that has enough dampness where the amplitude of resonant frequencies and all undesirable vibrations and chatter are completely eliminated and it still has enough energy and quick response to win world cup races? That combination of enough dampness and enough energy has not been achieved.
All of these things indicate that even with modern alpine snowboard technology and materials, snowboard builders cannot build a board that is 100% damp (dampened to the point where there are NO vibrations or chatter), without having undesirable side effects such as a loss of performance, slow responsiveness, and/or a loss of energy that effects rebound/snap.
So, in order to be objective (instead of subjective) we can measure dampness on a scale of 0 (zero) to 10 where a 0 is a board that has no dampness and a 10 is a board that is 100% damp (dampened to the point where all vibrations and chatter are completely eliminated), and measure snappy on a scale of 0 to 10 where a 0 is a board that has no snap and a 10 is a board that has 100% snap (a scary snap that instantly returns 100% of energy). Under ‘objective’ measurements (even with current technology) it appears to be impossible to build a snowboard that is truly damp (a 10 on the dampness scale) and also scary snappy (a 10 on the snappy scale).
Technically and in reality a snowboard can only be partially damp and partially snappy (not 100% damp and 100% snappy). Even with current technology, 100% dampness and 100% snappiness does not coexist in the same board.
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It's damp (titinal) but scary snappy (Virus goodness). It has all you want in a titinal board and all you want in a glass board.
Other's thoughts?
The deffinition of <b>damp</b> as it relates to snowboard construction:
1. To check or retard the energy, to deaden.
2. To restrain or discourage force.
3. To cause a decrease in amplitude.
The deffinition of <b>lively/snappy/pop</b> as it relates to snowboard construction:
1. Energetic, active, full of life/energy.
2. Quick or sudden in action or performance.
3. Rebounding quickly, springing back.
Saying your board is 'damp but scary snappy' is like saying your board is 'soft but extremely stiff'.
They are complete opposites.
If your board is damp then it cannot be “scary snappy”.
It sounds like you are confusing good edge hold with dampness.
Titanal and other high-strength aluminum alloys improve the torsional rigidity, which improves edge hold.
Titanal alone will not make a board damp/dead, you can get more dampness by adding rubber to a non-metal board than you would get if you just add titanal and nothing else to a board.
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I totally understand what you’re saying...
I find riding a lively board (one that has responsive/active rebound) to be more fun than riding a very damp/dead board that does not return (give back) any of the energy that is put into it. However, there needs to be a balance between rebound/responsiveness, absorption/dampness, stiffness and the riders skills so that the board can track smoothly and keep the edge engaged on the snow when it is necessary/desired.
However, metal alone does not determine whether a board is lively or damp/dead. I have tested several metal boards that had as much pop as lively non-metal boards have and I rode a Madd metal that had an insane amount of pop. So, I’m sure you can find a metal board (or have one built) that has the pop/rebound you’re looking for, but I also have several non-metal boards that I enjoy riding.
It also appears that most of the top racers have lively metal boards because you can see them use the energy/rebound for extra speed/acceleration and quick edge changes when needed.
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A better suggestion, if you're looking to progress in your riding and have the means, is hang that board on a wall or sell it to a collector and get something from the current decade.
Bring on the flames:angryfire
Nothing wrong with that statement, but...
If you know what you’re doing, it can be <b>fun</b> to take an iconic classic for a ride...
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Just because a board has metal in it does not mean it is stiffer – a metal board can be made very soft or very stiff just like non-metal boards (I have actually tested metal boards that were too soft).
Some metal boards have a metal top sheet and some have a protective top sheet over the metal and some metal boards have two sheets of metal in them (one above and one below the wood core). Titanal is a high strength aluminum alloy (it does not contain any titanium) and it's considered to be the best for metal board construction.
There are several threads/articles about the advantages of metal boards, which include superior torsional rigidity/stiffness, better edge hold, and improved absorption/dampness especially when used with a layer of rubber.
The following link shows an example of metal construction http://donek.com/tech2.htm#metal (note: I think Donek now uses rubber with all of their sheets of metal).
For some pictures/examples of complete bindings go to http://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/index.cfm and for parts go to http://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/accessories.cfm
Yes, bindings use dampening pads, and they usually have an angle adjustment and cant system that is unique to that brand of binding. Burton is still the only board that uses the 3 hole pattern, which also limits the choice of bindings for those boards. For all other boards, you will need bindings that use a four hole pattern.
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Hi Jon,
I’m not familiar with the Oxygen APX 165 so I’ll let someone else comment on that one.
The ‘real’ boardercross boards that pros ride are more along the lines of an all-mountain soft-boot board shape that utilizes modern alpine race board technology and construction methods, which enables them to hold an edge like an alpine board but handle the jumps and terrain changes found in a boardercross course. Some all-mountain boards are also good for free carving but they usually are not as torsionally stiff as alpine and boardercross boards, which is better in powder/soft-snow and in the park, but when they are fully pressured in a hard carve on firm snow they tend to twist off and lose edge hold. In my opinion, the metal version of the Coiler AM is more like a modern high-end alpine board with a tip and tail that work well in all-mountain/all-terrain conditions.
There a lot of different types and brands of used carving boards that you can have fun on while you research and save up for the perfect board – for now you should focus on finding the right flex/stiffness, sidecut, and length for your weight and riding style/terrain.
A thermoflex type of boot liner is usually the warmest for super cold conditions and you’re going to want some hard/cold snow wax for your board.
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Hi Jon,
It sounds like you are doing a good job of researching. Another board to consider is a metal Coiler AM (All Mountain) that you can get made with whatever length, sidecut, taper, and stiffness you want. I have tested several of these and they can carve/turn like a slalom board but also ride powder/backcountry very well.
I have been an avid backcountry/out-of-bounds rider for about 25 years and I can tell you first hand that the last thing you want in that situation is an equipment failure. So, for that reason I would recommend not getting step-in bindings because they have a higher risk of problems/failure. Also, if you get used bindings then I suggest that you replace all of the bails with new ones.
Regarding boots: I only weigh 135 pounds but ride very aggressively, and I found the Deeluxe Suzuka boots to be too soft for carving/racing but nice for riding powder. I also tried the UPZ RTRs two years ago and found that they became extremely stiff in cold weather (even though the advertisement said they won’t) and it took two people to get me out of them on cold days (or I had to unscrew the tongues). In my opinion, the RTR’s are great carving/racing boots but might not have enough range of motion for riding deep powder/backcountry conditions – but you weigh a lot more than me so they might work for you. However, the Deeluxe Indy or Track 700 might be a better choice for what you want to do.
Regarding boot size: It sounds like 25.5 should work. However, some people like to squeeze into a smaller size than what the charts recommend, but they usually have low volume/narrow feet.
Don
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I worked several years as a fulltime snowboard supervisor/instructor at ski areas near Seattle, and I can honestly say I never got wet in Burton AK 3 layer pants even after being out for six hours in the rain and sitting in the puddles on the chair lift seats. Plus, the're designed to breathe from the inside to the outside, so if you're riding hard you won't get soaking wet from sweat as long as you have the appropriate layers underneath.
I whish I could say the same about the ski school's Gore-Tex jackets, which proves that some Gore-Tex products are better than others.
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sorry you disagree with my premise that to much input can make us stiff and tight. No disrespect intended. :)
Actually, I do agree. I thought this point came across when I said, “Expert snowboarders are technical, precise, and fluid riders, however people with overly active analytical minds often struggle with the flow of the movements that are necessary to be fluid and precise, but knowledge is power! The trick is to balance the technical knowledge with the skills and the riding to become fluid, versatile/adaptable, powerful, and precise.”
I'd love to rip some carving backside floaters with you sometime.
Have a great summer (I'm probably done posting till next season).
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Hi Sean (Donek),
Great information!
I'm looking forward to riding some of your new shapes especially when you apply this technology to boards built for lightweight riders like me.
I wish you the best of success,
Don Richter
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Try this one then!
Think of your board as a Book, and in your case the Body is made up
of all the Words in the Dictionary...Then ask yourself this,
Just where do Instructors come from anyway?
Who taught You, Who taught Them?
Can you do a Backside Floater?
Do you know what a backside floater is? of course not!
It is a move I made up years ago and named. :rolleyes:
Will I teach it to you...maybe :D
Some people can read better and faster than others – they are usually the ones who have had better instruction.
A Backside Floater comes from a trick that surfers do - when they "float" on the lip of the wave (ride along on top of the breaking lip on their backside). That trick was adapted to skateboarding and snowboarding a long time ago. I have several old videos that show Craig Kelly doing Backside Floaters on ridges and spines. It’s actually an easy trick to learn, but since you invented it then you must know that. ;)
It looks like this has been too much mental stimulation for some – sorry!
I'm working on a picture and pop-up book.
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Bullsh!t.
Just because I can't tell you in your terms what is happenning throughout my turn, or skid, or whatever, does not mean I don't understand it. My muscles have a better memory than my mind...and if I have to think about every part of a turn, I can guarantee it will fall apart.
I never said, "if you can’t explain it then you don't understand it".
I said, "If you don’t understand it, then that <b>indicates</b> you don’t know it".
Those are two completely different statement, you have twisted what I said and my use of the word "indicates" is not an absolute meaning ("indicates" as in a sign that you don’t know it – it is not the same meaning as saying "you don’t know it").
I agree that there are people who can do it but they can’t explain it, and that when something becomes instinctive through repetition then you don’t need to think about it. However, I think you’ll agree that if a person can’t explain it, then they are not the most qualified person to teach it to others.
Even if the movements are right it might be for the wrong reasons.
If you’re using movements for the wrong reasons then they might not the best choice of movements.
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Semantics can make you stiff...
Think of your board as a Guitar string and your body as the thumb
that is plucking it...The more you pluck the better the music.
Expert snowboarders are technical, precise, and fluid riders, however people with overly active analytical minds often struggle with the flow of the movements that are necessary to be fluid and precise, but knowledge is power! The trick is to balance the technical knowledge with the skills and the riding to become fluid, versatile/adaptable, powerful, and precise.
I have met a lot of snowboarders (and guitar players) who have been doing it for years but they still can’t make good turns or good music.
Only perfect practice provides perfect results!
Practicing incorrect movements reinforces those incorrect movements, which will result in bad habits that will be very difficult to correct later on.
Understanding the technical terminology and knowing how and why things work (or do not work) is beneficial to learning and being able to efficiently communicate.
If you don’t understand it, then that indicates you don’t know it. If that’s the case, you might want to take a lesson from someone who knows it, can do it, and can teach it. ;)
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In the situation I was describing the word "rhythm" is interchangeable with "timing" and/or "intensity" and a skilled rider can make a change in their rhythm/timing/intensity whenever and wherever they want, including in any phase of a turn (phases of a turn: initiation, control, finish & transfer). However, when trying to make a board complete a turn that is a radically different radius than what the board’s side cut radius is designed to do then you will have more success (especially on hard snow) if the rhythm/timing/intensity of the initiation of the turn matches with the intended turn shape.
Example: If you want to make a short board do a big (long radius) carved turn but you initiate the turn (the initiation phase) with the rhythm/timing/intensity of a short radius turn, then when you enter the controlling phase of the turn you will need to do a radical adjustment to go from a short radius turn to a long radius turn, which will effect the overall shape and look of the turn (the track on the snow will not be as pure/clean of a carve and it will not have a consistent long radius arc).
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carvedog and Snowman have some good points and here are some more things to think about:
In realm of US professional coaches (United States Ski and Snowboard Association) and US snowboard instructors (American Association of Snowboard Instructors) and US ski instructors (Professional Ski Instructors of America), the terms angulation, inclination, and banking refer to body positions.
Regarding "board inclination": most professionals would use the term "edge angle" instead of "board inclination".
The four basic skills are: Balancing movements, Edge-control movements, Rotary movements, and Pressure-control movements.
Here is a description of rotary movements that might be beneficial (note: rotary movements can also be considered muscular movements/forces):
Rotary Movements: involve turning, twisting, pivoting, leveraging, or steering movements of part of the body, the body as a whole, or of one part of the body relative to another. As in the case with the other three skills, rotary movements may be very subtle or quite strong, fully developed or blocked, and active or reactive, depending on the snowboarder's wishes. Rotary movements can include turning of the feet, knees, legs, hips, torso, or whole body.
If you are balanced on your uphill edge doing a carved traverse with your board’s edge angle at 30 degrees and you increase the edge angle to 60 degrees you will still be doing a carved traverse (not turning) unless the board bends more and/or you make some other adjustment/movement that makes the board turn/steer uphill. However, if you are headed down the fall-line (downhill) while centered (lengthwise), and you roll the board onto a 30 degree edge angle the board will start to make a turn the size that it’s side cut radius is designed for. If you increase the edge angle to 60 degrees it may tighten the turn up a little, but what would really make a difference is if the board bended more, which sometimes is what happens when you put the board on a higher edge angle. If the board is on an edge angle of 10 degrees it usually won’t flex lengthwise very much without rider input because that low of an edge angle usually has less pressure on it. Also, if the board is on an extreme edge angle (around 80 degrees or more) it usually won’t flex lengthwise very much without rider input because the board is basically vertical and relying upon it’s torsional rigidity to keep it stable. Most professionals consider an edge angle between 30 and 60 degrees to be the most effective for high performance.
The Float:
To make a short board (example: a 163cm with a 9.5m side cut radius) do a big (long radius) carved turn you need to start the turn with a slower rhythm with the deliberate intention to draw out the turn and make constant adjustments to reduce the board’s tendency to steer/flex/bend into the turn – think of it as forcing the board to steer a bigger turn than what it wants to make.
To make a big board (example: a 185cm with a 18m side cut radius) do a tight (short radius) carved turn you need to start the turn with a faster (more aggressive) rhythm with the deliberate intention to tighten the turn and make constant adjustments to increase the board’s ability to steer/flex/bend into the turn – think of it as forcing the board to steer a tighter turn than what it wants to make.
When you truly understand how to use (and blend/combine) the four basic skills listed above then you will be headed in the direction that will allow you to be a very efficient, versatile, and powerful rider.
On a more technical level, damp is a frequency related thing, so you can have a board that is damp and still able to release energy quickly (snap) in the hands of a well versed user. 
Diablo 173 All-Mountain Carver
in All-Mountain Hardboot Board Reviews
Posted
Hi Wun,
You’re welcome.
The Diablo website is under construction and I do not know their price structure, but I just sent you an email with some additional information.
Don