noschoolrider
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Posts posted by noschoolrider
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On 1/18/2018 at 1:32 PM, Jack Michaud said:
No, I am not. You've misread my post, and the Allflex page I referenced.
At the top of the Allflex page you referenced it says, "ALLFLEX SKI AND SNOWBOARD PLATES".
The illustrations on that page are of the SKI plate.
The descriptions on that page are of the SKI and the SNOWBOARD plates - some of the descriptions on that page only apply to the SKI plate.Regarding your comment, "And given the material and structure of the Allflex plate I can't fathom it flexing that much."
Some of the Allflex snowboard plates are very soft and (as shown in the pictures) do flex that much. Some Allflex snowboard plates flex more than others and some race boards flex more in the middle than others.Regarding your comment, "I have to wonder if the plate in this photo is not an Allflex in the first place."
Have you ever noticed how much the wing of a jet can flex? - like the wing of a Boeing 777The photo that GeoffV posted (with the very stiff plate) is of Benjamin Karl on his homemade plate - the plate Benjamin created several years ago, which sparked the research and development that lead to the current isolation plates.
Please let me know if I "misread" anything.
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2 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:
Yeah. This photo seems to contradict the descriptions and illustrations on Allflex's own website: http://www.allflexplate.com/ENG/Features
And given the material and structure of the Allflex plate I can't fathom it flexing that much. I have to wonder if the plate in this photo is not an Allflex in the first place. Is it confirmed?
Jack, you are confusing the Allflex Ski plate with the Allflex Snowboard plate.
From their site: "#20. The Allflex plate solves all problems with injuries for skiers that are results of bindings adjusted too tightly, which is necessary with other plates as the ski bends under the ski boot along with the plate when pressure is applied. The Allflex plate, on the other hand, does not bend and allows for free bending of the ski while the bindings don't have to be adjusted more tightly." The "does not bend" only applies to the Allflex Ski plate.Allflex Snowboard Plates come in three models (Hexagonal Cut, Longitudinal Cut, and Diagonal Cut), plus the following model types, and options...
Allflex Hexagonal Cut Features:more stable and stronger in torsion
Hexagonal Cut Model Types:
NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
U – softer in torsion, also lighter
H – the softest in torsion and the lightestHexagonal Cut available options:
GS Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mmSL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mmASL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U;
Width: 171 mm
Allflex Longitudinal Cut Features:softer in torsion
Longitudinal Cut Model Types:
NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
U – softer in torsion, also lighter
H – the softest in torsion and the lightestLongitudinal Cut available options:
GS Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mmSL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mmASL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 171 mm
Allflex Diagonal Cut Features:softer and lighter compared to the circular cuts - especially good in soft snow
perfect for recreational carvers
only super soft stiffness
freecarving recommendedDiagonal Cut Model Types:
NORMAL
H – the softest in torsion and the lightestDiagonal Cut available options:
GS Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 192 mmSL Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 178 mm -
42 minutes ago, lonbordin said:
The Deeluxe line also has different tongues available to change stiffness.
Yes, I forgot to mention the stiffer race tongues.
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6 hours ago, philw said:
You can't really add stiffness to a system, but you can soften things up by tweaking tongues or using softer springs etc.
Mountain Slope .951 boots come standard with 100 flex tongues but they also offer 110 flex tongues (10% stiffer) and 120 flex tongues (20% stiffer), plus you can get stiffer springs. UPZ boots come standard with 120 flex tongues but they also offer 140 flex tongues and 160 flex tongues, plus you can get stiffer forward flex springs (UPZ also offers 100 flex tongues). You can get stiffer BTS springs to use with Deeluxe boots, and getting stiffer liners can make any boot feel stiffer. Plus, adding shin supports/guards (like the Eliminator & Shintronic) and/or plastic sheets between the shell and liner can increase support/stiffness. Note: The method of determining boot flex/stiffness is not standardized between boot manufacturers (one company’s 100 flex boot may not equal another company’s 100 flex boot), so you should only use the flex numbers as a starting point.
On 1/9/2018 at 12:20 AM, Aracan said:Make that "The only new snowboard hardboots" as you listed all current manufacturers except the Koreans and the Japanese, which, to the best of my knowledge, are really, really not available in the West.
My girlfriend is Japanese and there are several Bomber Forum Members who live in Japan and South Korea (I have sold Kesslers to some of them). So, if I had said "The only new snowboard hardboots" then there's a good chance someone would have said "what about Japanese and Korean manufactures". However, as you said, it is difficult for people outside of Japan/Korea to get access to those boots.
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11 hours ago, Aracan said:
"Boot stiffness" is a difficult proposal in and of itself. Are we talking about the stiffness of the boot plastic? The tongue? The spring system (if there is one)? Fore-aft or lateral?
Personally, I like a boot with a lot of flexibility fore-aft, meaning the softest (red) UPZ tongues and an aftermarket spring system with softer springs and more travel than the stock system. This is because I prefer a style of riding where I flex the rear boot a lot in toeside turns.
Good comments Aracan!
It's also important to consider the relationship of stiffness and range-of-motion (fore/aft and lateral movements).
The taller/heavier/stronger a person is the more leverage/pressure they will put on the boots. If the boots are not designed to allow for enough range-of-motion then even very stiff boots can deform under load, which can negatively effect the boots ability to support the foot in the boot.
Ideally, you want boots that are stiff enough to provide satisfactory support for your body size/strength, and also provide sufficient range-of-motion (without distorting the boot) for the types of snowboarding you want to do and for the conditions you will be doing them in. This is why it's best to have boots that allow you to adjust/change the stiffness and the range-of-motion.
Some of the best new snowboard hard boots are from Mountain Slope (clones of the famous Northwave boots https://mountain-slope.com ), UPZ ( http://upzboots.com ) and Deeluxe (in my opinion, the Deeluxe boots need to be fitted with the Bomber BTS Kit).
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1 hour ago, Lurch said:
my point was simply that IF a superhero could run the fastest line carving, they would be faster than their skid/carve opponents.
My bad, I thought you were asking me a serious question instead of posting a hypothetical point that was seeking confirmation of what you already believed in. I guess it's like someone asking, if a superhero had wings and could flap them fast enough would they be able to fly?
Anyway, for your entertainment, here's a video of Ross Rebagliati's 1998 gold medal run and below that video is a link to a video of Vic Wild's 2014 gold medal run:
Vic Wild - 2014 Winter Olympics Men's Parallel Giant Slalom (you need to use the link below because YouTube will not allow that video to be embedded):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDilQWhZxfk -
On 1/6/2018 at 2:38 PM, Lurch said:
But IF that same 'fast' line could be carved, rather than skidded, would it not be faster? (not withstanding the laws of physics permitting that of course)
It's dictated by what can and cannot be done and by what is the most effective.
Basically, it depends upon the course and slope. In general, extra carving will take the racer out of the tighter line, which means the racer will not be able to stay in the same 'fast' line.
If the time spent carving results in more speed lost from the carving, and/or more speed lost from moving farther across the hill (or through a turn), then that line will not be faster. If the racers are traveling at slower speeds then it can also be beneficial to try to increase speed by pumping the board.
The only time a good racer intentionally skids to slow down is if the course requires it. In the other situations you see, the racer is trying to turn as quickly as possible and do the skid/pivot with the least amount of speed loss.
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On 1/6/2018 at 12:59 PM, SunSurfer said:
When the SCR on FIS GS skis was made longer, the pundits told us that Ligety succeeded because he was able to cleanly carve these skis for more of the course. The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.
The fastest overall speed is all that matters. It all depends upon the course/slope/offset. Sometimes a drift/redirect turn (which is more skidded than carved) will be a better choice because it can result in a more direct and faster line than if the racer was carving/edging more, and sometimes using rebound to create/maintain speed and/or change edges above the snow is a better choice (think of the overall distance traveled and how long it took to do it). Also, some coaches consider race turns to be a series of recoveries - maybe it's the thrills from watching Bode Miller.
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On 1/6/2018 at 12:59 PM, SunSurfer said:
That explanation seems counter-intuitive to me when the result we see in current racing videos is a significant amount of skidding in the turn, which should make the rider slower. I can see the real advantage in this setting of jumping the tail of the board around to the new edge in a way that minimises the friction loss of momentum, then a stiff board will hold a straighter and shorter line to the next gate.
When the SCR on FIS GS skis was made longer, the pundits told us that Ligety succeeded because he was able to cleanly carve these skis for more of the course. The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.
Whatever the explanation, riders on ALLFLEX are winning races, lots of races.
ps noschoolrider: start to worry when your girlfriend wants you in a speedsuit ;-)
Here's the full text from two post I made in 2009 (in the 'Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory' thread):
1. Some of the new VSR boards have the stiffest area in the middle and because of this they do not bend as you would expect them to, and therefore they do not assume the exact shape of a radial arc like a conventional board does. However, they get the job done faster because they don't lose as much speed as a conventional board does.
2. Well, I recently finished several weeks of testing on 3 of Bruce's VSR prototypes and in my feedback to Bruce I said, "the middle of the board does not bend outward in the turn so it does not scrub/lose speed" and Bruce confirmed that this was a design trait that was taken off a modern race shape and he also said, "It is as you figured not designed to scrub speed off as a normal FC board."
The "Bruce" I mentioned in my posts is Bruce Varsava, owner of Coiler Snowboards and not only did he confirm that when the "the middle of the board does not bend outward in the turn so it does not scrub/lose speed" he also told me that it was some of the Kessler features he was experimenting with. Also, over the past 8 years I have ordered several custom Kesslers directly from Hans Kessler and we have discussed this and several other things related to flex patterns and construction variations that he does for different plate systems.
p.s. no worries regarding the girlfriend and speed suits - been there done that.
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15 hours ago, SunSurfer said:
I am completely baffled by the success of the ALLFLEX, and not having had the chance to ride even one of its' flavours, have no insight into how apparently limiting the flex of the board, while presumably having a significant effect on mid-section torsional resistance might be an ideal compromise for a GS racer.
Basically, the more the board bends in the middle area the more speed it loses when edging/turning, so a stiffer mid section is faster for racing.
This is why Kessler has been making the middle area of their race boards stiff for a long time.
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2 hours ago, nils said:
the boards almost don't bend!
Check this pic, even in freecarving...the board is almost non bending in the middle...typical of the allflex style...but the design of the races has been going this way for many years so...( first with kessler rocker, then plates...)...the fun of carving is now lost to a down the line path with big legs to survive the G's
Good observations Nils, and as you stated it has been going on for several years.
The Tinkler Snow Stix system has been around since the 1990's (Bryan/oldsnowboards.com is an expert in this area), so even back then snowboarders were using that system to increase the stiffness of a board.
In May of 2009 I made the following two posts:
Basically, the more the board bends in the middle area the more speed it loses when edging/turning, so a stiffer mid section is faster for racing.
Regarding racing: there are no points for looking good or for making nice carved turns (first to cross the finish wins regardless of how it looks). When Jean-Claude Killy won three alpine events at the 1968 Winter Olympics some people said his skiing looked ugly, and when Jasey-Jay Anderson was a young snowboard racer some people said his riding looked too wild and that he was too much of a risk taker. Anyway, I did enjoy (and do miss) watching bigger-turn single course snowboard races like they had in the 1998 Nagano Olympics.
On 1/4/2018 at 3:28 AM, nils said:Bringing topic back to life....
I have checked the slow motions of last Worldcup races and the massive use of Allflex plates...
Now the boards don't even bend in an arc because they are blocked by the plate...and the design of the races has evolved to a less curvy path where the riders just throw the boards from side to side parallel to the slope's direction... ( I admire the skills/fitness/ training / stamina it takes to do it, but I find it not very sexy/stylish...)
I think we are going again in the direction where plates are going to be less usable for the recreational riders that want to arc tight turns, or see a separation from racing plates and freecarver's plates ( for those who uses them ( still lots don't because they are heavy, too high...))..
what's your thought about it?
Nils
I'm confident that as long as people can still order custom made boards the customer will be able to get flex patterns that are fun and more forgiving for freecarving. I also think companies like Donek will continue to offer plates that are suitable for freecarving as long as the market exists. As with most sports the majority of the research and development is focused on the needs of the pros (the top athletes), and for advancing the sport/competition. Often the results are not what is best for the average consumer, however (as we have seen) many of the advances in equipment and technology can be adapted so they benefit the consumer.
My girlfriend says snowboard racing stopped being sexy when the guys quit using speed suits, but clearly it was because the women quit using speed suits.
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On 1/3/2018 at 9:35 AM, 1xsculler said:
I much prefer Sigi's carving vid to this extreme carving vid even though I expect both carvers can do both types of carving. EC must be more difficult to do.
EC which is now known as extreme carving evolved from euro carving. Euro carving was pioneered by Peter Bauer and Jean Nerva. Peter and Jean were European racers who became famous in movies/videos for their unique freeriding style (euro carving) that they preformed on their asymmetrical Burton PJ pro model race boards.
Most racers are excellent freeriders and many of them still play with different variations of EC. However, not many EC riders can freeride the way (and at the skill level) that Sigi does in the video I posted. This is because Sigi's freeriding style requires more skill/athleticism.
For those who are interested, here's a guided-discovery experiment:
The next time you're on the slopes and have good EC conditions, try to make the same turn shapes on the same steep pitch and in the same narrow corridor as done while Extreme Carving, except this time do it without touching any body parts on the snow. Try to do this all the way down the steep pitch without cheating (making bigger/wider turns, traversing, or stopping between any of the turns would be cheating). After this experiment, think about the following 4 things:1. Which technique (EC, or pure carved turns without touching the snow) was easier on a steep and narrow pitch?
2. Why do you think that technique was easier?
3. Why do you think the other technique was more difficult?
4. Does touching the snow have a stabilizing effect like an outrigger? -
On 1/1/2018 at 1:14 PM, cin said:
Since I'm only just starting I won't be looking at anything else than a stock setup before I try making any adjustments.. but here I read that plates dampen and would make you feel leas connected with the slope, while I thought race plates were added to stiffen and stabilize a board. Are they only for dampening?
Most modern plate systems allow an experienced rider to maintain more consistent/even pressure on the edges when they are engaged (better edge grip equals better tracking). Some plates allow independent/unobstructed bending of the board (underneath the plate) and some plates can change the flex/stiffness of the board.
Peoples' definition of dampening varies a lot, however plates will reduce the amount of vibrations the rider feels, which provides a smoother ride, reduces fatigue and it can make the rider feel more stable as long as they are still in control. Some plates provide less board feel than others and this can make inexperienced riders feel like they have less control.
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2 hours ago, barryj said:
but don't forget he's riding on a Vist or Allflex plate which dampens that chop!.....and the fact he's a P. Giant Slalom Olympic medalist probably! doesn't hurt either!
Beckmann is correct "You don't need a plate to ride like that". Over the last 25+ years I have taught several people to ride rough terrain with hard boots and race boards. Also, my girlfriend has a lot of VHS videos (from the 1990's) of Sigi and his friends riding Burton race stock boards (without plates) on really rough terrain at full speed and they totally carve it up. However, riding like that does require strength and endurance.
I'm glad you guys liked the video and I hope it inspires some of you to develop the skills (and strength) to get good at riding hard boots on less than perfect conditions.
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Here is a video of Sigi Grabner carving on snow that is not perfectly groomed:
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On 12/8/2017 at 6:55 AM, Jack Michaud said:
Until Bomber BTS kits are available again, there is a Deeluxe version available at YYZCanuck:
http://www.yyzcanuck.com/shop/parts/deeluxe-lean-mechanism-spring/
I recently switched from Track 700s to the RC10. I switched to Power Wraps which made a big difference. Much better fit and performance. In addition to fitting better, they also stiffen the boot, which is welcome. After that I still needed more so I went to the stiffer gray tongue. This was a big improvement too. The standard black is simply too soft for me. Felt like riding in walk mode. This year I'm on the stiffest dark gray tongues and I'm loving them for hard carving. For all-mountain riding they're almost too stiff. I got the stiffer RCR cuffs, but I haven't tried them yet.
FYI yyzcanuck.com has been out of the Deluxe (RAB) springs for a long time. Also, you can get a stiffer forward flex (race) spring for your UPZ boots at http://upzboots.com/shop/upz-forward-flex-race-springs/
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SOLD
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SOLD
This board was custom made by Hansjuerg Kessler.
The board is in perfect condition.
Features:
Length: 180 cm
Waist width: 20.2 cm
Side cut: KST PGS
Side cut range: 11.5-19 m
Topsheet: Black P-tex
Inserts: UPM inserts, plus full 4x4 insert packKessler Gold Medal Basegrind and Structure ($100 value)
Full race tune ($100 value)Ideal rider weight range: 130-185 pounds
$995 - bindings not included
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SOLD
This board was custom made by Hansjuerg Kessler.
The board is in excellent condition.
Features:
Length: 162 cm
Waist width: 20.5 cm
Side cut: KST SL
Side cut range: 7-12 m
Topsheet: Black P-tex
Inserts: UPM inserts, plus full 4x4 insert packKessler Gold Medal Basegrind and Structure ($100 value)
Full race tune ($100 value)Ideal rider weight range: 125-180 pounds
$995 - bindings not included
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Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems
in Carving Central
Posted
I understand what you are saying.
FYI: You can order an Allflex snowboard plate with features/options that will allow independent and unobstructed bending of the board, and you can order an Allflex snowboard plate with features/options that can alter the flex of the board. Plus, there are several torsional stiffness choices for each model of Allflex snowboard plates, and when custom ordering a race board you can select different stiffness/flex in the mid section.
Some racers using the Allflex are on a fairly stiff version of the plate with a board that has a fairly stiff mid section, while other racers are using different variations of Allflex plate stiffness and board stiffness.
In Bola's article he mentions differences in snowboard stiffness/flex (between a standard board and a board with the Allflex insert pattern).
Here are some interesting sentences from Bola's article:
"One important thing the Allflex plate has introduced back into snowboard development is the modification of the stiffness that benefits those that want to freecarve and not race gates, even though you will not likely see this group of riders on an Allflex plate. The progression of the alpine boards has been toward stiffer decks that makes it difficult or almost impossible for beginner to the intermediate riders to master and have fun on the slope, it is a good thing Allflex changed that direction. The dramatic change in flex pattern between a standard board and a board with the Allflex insert pattern to be used with Allflex plate speaks volume. Before the flex pattern adjustments by manufacturers, it is obvious the in certain conditions, the semi rigid system was a tough stallion to tame."
So, it seems the Allflex page and Bola's article do not mention/explain all of the options/variables.