Phil Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Some of you may remember Vlad - our guest for about 3 days on this forum until things got a little hot. He and I are having a discussion on another forum that got me thinking about torsional twisting of a snowboard. For those of you who don't know, torsional twisting of the snowboard, be it ever so slight, causes different amounts of pressure on different parts of the board. For example, pressing on the front of your heelside edge more than on the rear of your heelside edge. So, the question is, what part does twisting the board play in snowboarding? Specifically, I am asking this in the racing forum because he said "no racer on the world cup circuit is twisting their board." What are your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Well, I'm just a beer-leaguer but have been racing for a long time, and instructed as well and I'd have to say that in my own riding I'm twisting the board at least a little bit at the beginning and end of turns. I know that I tend to weight forward and really drive the front foot into the edge at the initiation and let the edge take hold for a split second before I really follow it with the same motion on the rear foot. What does this do? Never really thought about it, but I suppose it gives you a chance to have the front of your board engaged, yet still be able to slide a bit if you need the control or are on a sketchyt gate. Might not be the best or most efficient way to do things, but I'm pretty sure that's what I do. Where I think I probably twist more is at the end of the turn when I've weighted back and let the front foot go. That is right when I have the tail loaded up and let it spring me into the next turn and get some extra acceleration out of the turn. Now, I don't do it on every turn, especially in the race course, but I know that I release my front foot first and let the board start to uncoil. Once again, if I think about it it is probably not very efficient. If I let the whoile board spring at once I could probably get more snap out of it, but by letting my front fooot go first I am trying to let the tail spring while already torsionally twisting with the front foot to get the new edge in a bit faster. This is all coming from an amateur so take it with agrain of salt, but its stuff I think I do in my riding. Also, if anyone out there sees these as major flaws and has good suggestions I'm always open to constructive criticism and better ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Whether right or wrong, those are good examples. Anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 I use torsional flexion when not carving mainly. When I'm feathering the edge, depending on which direction I need to move and how fast, the torsional flexing of the board helps me to apply pressure where needed. When I am carving, I find that the board does twist slightly at the end of my carved turns, allowing the back half of the edge to hook up more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Which thread is going to die so I can post my 10cents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 When your board twist it is caused by rider input. Vlad is right, no person on the world cup, that I know of at least, is actively trying to twist thier board in the way AASI focus'. All boards do twist weather carving a turn or skidding. In a race course you are trying to get from point A to point B the fastest. Sometimes you need to through on the brakes or make line adjustments to acheive this goal. When a racer is forced to skid a turn he uses technique to slid the board. Sometimes the board will twist sometimes it wont, truefully it doesn't matter as long as the turn ends up the way the rider intended. A racer doesn't think........ OK do this, then my board twist, then it slides/skids, then twist it back, then board carves.......A racer thinks oh boy getting a little late.....need to set-up for the fall away gate....slide board slightly to get back on line......oh crap too much.....need to push it to get some speed.......where was that fall away again...... When is comes down to it a board can carve while being twisted or not. It also can be skidded while it's twisted or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragon fly jones Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 It seems if you "twist" your board from the nose you'll get launched, from the tail or mid section it releases across or down the hill depending on location of said "twist". No I have seen riders feather butter slide glide and gut bust boards to make turns, then I saw this and looked at like (fast forward) hours of footage where riders are clearly unweighting the front foot pressuring the rear foot and bringing the nose out of the snow and "twisting" the board it is slight and not a twist in the sense of coil spring.()>()>()>()>()> more of a ()>(>)^()> in a line (sorry no graphics package to do a real drawing not sure if this makes sense but if you see film look at the board not the rider if you wanna see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 You guys raise another question in my mind. How much is twist active and how much is it passive? A board will twist if you ride your tail out of a turn and transition into the next (and in many other ways), but was that your initial intent? Probably not. philfell - I agree that a slide is different than a skid - so would you say that in a slide you pressure the whole board evenly? I believe that to keep a board traveling in the same direction in a slide that you do have to pressure the edges evenly along the long axis of the board. Is that what you are saying? Also, can you explain how you can skid a turn without the board twisting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Also, can you explain how you can skid a turn without the board twisting? Rotary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Basically what PF said...... Twisting is yet another silly pony trick developed by instructor geeks. It should not be a core pillar...or whatever they are calling it these days. However, it is a very nice "drill" to help riders use their feet INDEPENDENTLY, especially on healside. It opens up the hip angle for people who are prone to counter-rotation. (Assuming your twisting is toe up front / heel up back on a heelside). The risk is that the rider will push their weight in the backseat. Toeside it's pretty much moot. Concept doesn't work so hot on a race board riding 55-50. It's really just a dog trick for newbies to pressure their board while remained balanced. Shouldn't be a conscious action...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jschal01 Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 You guys raise another question in my mind. How much is twist active and how much is it passive?A board will twist if you ride your tail out of a turn and transition into the next (and in many other ways), but was that your initial intent? Probably not. philfell - I agree that a slide is different than a skid - so would you say that in a slide you pressure the whole board evenly? I believe that to keep a board traveling in the same direction in a slide that you do have to pressure the edges evenly along the long axis of the board. Is that what you are saying? Also, can you explain how you can skid a turn without the board twisting? Why are you trying to break twist down this finely? As I stated in the x-post in the general discussion, and think it can be a useful teaching metaphpor, though I don't believe that board torsional flex through actual ankle twist itself actually occurs while riding. Certainly drills focusing on turning solely through what "feels" like an ankle twist have been beneficial to me, as have pivoting drills, etc. However, actual riding is a very dynamic and interactive process, much of which is not occurring in the higher cognitive parts of the mind. Getting too worried about intent can I believe lead to very robotic or overly poised riding. Your second paragraph, referring to riding your tail and transitioning, as originally mentioned by Dragon Fly Jones in his post, I would argue is really "twist" brought about by the interaction of the board with terrain (tail pressured and on edge) and pressure shifting forward into the transition. The initial intent of the rider? Could be any number of things -- avoid a skier straightlining to his/her right, making the next gate, working on more-dynamic foot drive. Unless it was an actual drill, I don't think the actual intent would be "I will now twist my board to help transition to the next turn." Like sex, it sometimes just happens. Skidding without twisting: well, tip roll. There you have pressure and pivoting/rotary/steering, with then an edge set and slight skid. Depending on board used and snow condition, your torsional flex may be virtually none, or a lot. So, you could use all four "performance concepts" if I remember the terms correctly in one maneuver with no carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 To skid without the board twisting, think of a sideslip then move the direction of movement perpendicular to the fall line. You got a feathered top turn with no twist. Watch Klug's toeside on the steeps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Why are you trying to break twist down this finely? . Why not? I had one of my lessons take a clinic from someone else. They came back to me and told me that this instructor told them to twist the board into the new turn. They said that it really helped their riding. I have never taught this on an alpine board, but it made me think. I think that there is a place to utilize the board's twist - I am just trying to clear up that place. Your second paragraph, referring to riding your tail and transitioning, as originally mentioned by Dragon Fly Jones in his post, I would argue is really "twist" brought about by the interaction of the board with terrain (tail pressured and on edge) and pressure shifting forward into the transition. Very true - that is why I am thinking about this. You can never discount the board's interaction with the snow as not being a part of what we are doing. It is evident that a board has torsional twist, I am wondering if and how we use it to our advantage. BTW - rotary causes a slight amount of twist. Again, if you are putting pressure on one end of one edge more than the other, you are putting twist into the board. I believe that the board does twist. I don't think that anyone can argue that, I am asking how we may use twist, either actively or passively. Or not at all? philfell - I think that I understand what you are saying. It sounds like a pivot to slip. Is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jschal01 Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Well, using twist passively to our advantage is an easy one: primarily, use a board with a flex pattern consistent with our desired type of riding. When you talk about using torsional flex actively to one's advantage, outside of the drill context, I'm not sure where it applies. I visited the Epic thread to see what you were mentioning, and you use the example there of pipe riders using twist. While there may be some torsional twist as pipe riders leave and re-enter the pipe, similar to someone riding an edge off of a kicker, saying that the twist is helping them set up for the wall or spin as opposed to being a byproduct is a stretch, at best. The danger is that you take a helpful teaching metaphor (definitely helpful to me) and try to extend it to being a generally applicable technique. Actually, in terms of taking teaching drills and applying them too broadly, let me use the analogy of pivot slips. (It was interesting that you used this terminology to characterize what PhilFell was saying.) PSIA instructors when clinicing amongst themselves seem to be all about pivot slips among other drills, and based on my sampling of chairlift conversations are really into steering, two-footed skiing with steering of the inside ski, etc. While it is in fact true that modern ski racing technique does involve significant steering and pivoting in addition to carving, if you watched, say, the Olympic slalom the skiers there looked completely different from about 98% of PSIA instructors. Not just in ability, but in terms of a dynamic, athletic technique that involved, say, skiing the flushes differently from the offsets, and simply blending skills as the skiing demands. PSIA instructors frequently will be on slalom skis, but basically have one turn similar to skiing a flush, stiff arms, and a posed posture...though they are often excellent skiers nonetheless. This may sound like a digression...it may be a digression...but the basic point is don't take a cool drill and try to get people to apply it all the time to the point where it stilts, or stunts, people's riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow|3oarder Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 A while back I had an instructor tell me that I should be using twist on my freeride board. At the time it helped......however I only learned to carve properly the followign year when I bought stiffer freeride boots and focused on proper technique. I dont consciously twist now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Been thinking about this, and I realize that I use a lot of passive twisting when doing flatland 360's and when switching from regular to switch. Especially with a big long board, it's almost essential. Another time that comes to mind is when I'm riding tight trees and need that subtle ankle flexion to slightly correct my line. Likewise, when lining up for a jump, box or rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Thanks for all of the replies. Due to the fact that this is a race forum, I asked about the WC thing - which Phil answered - thanks. Kent mentioned that he was wondering which thread would die first - I am going to continue this conversation on the Carving Community because I would still like to talk about it - only less with racing and more with other kinds of riding. jschal - I hope you don't mind, but I will x-quote you over there. Thanks again for your input everybody. I have really been mulling this over the last two days. Please join in on the Carving Community and share more (or copy from here) on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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