Need help with spec'ing my first Donek

[nurse ben]

Sean said he'd build whatever I want, the problem is that I don't really know enough to give him the specs I need...

So, being as it's Summer, and we're all dreaming of snowy slopes, maybe I can get some help from all you dreamers

What I want is a board that is in-between a directional twin (which I have) and a dedicated carving board (which I will someday get), something like the Prior ATV. I'm not opposed to getting a stock board, but for nearly the same price I can get a custom from Donek.

Me:

6', 200#

Boots: UPZ ATB (soft) BSL 312

Back foot = 40 + deg cant + 10mm heel lift

Front foot = 45 + 5 deg cant + 5mm toe lift

Location: Unfortunately we live in the Southeast, so we're skiing short hills most days, mix of firm to very firm with rare soft days. We drive North to ski medium sized hills (West Virginia, New England) and we fly West to ride Rockies/Wasatch/Cascades and for BC.

Current Quiver and Quiver Plans: Rossignol Experience 168mw and SnoPro Race (new) and Prior MFR 168w Rockered and Nidecker Freecarve. In the market for a big splitty. Will probably sell the MFR once I get my custon, then add in a dedicated skinny (19-20) carver. Plan on doing all of my riding in hard boots and plates, BC included.

Boarding experience: Started back to boarding this past Spring after a twenty year hiatus, have been skiing ~40 days a year for past eight years. Comfortable on snow, still working on trust issues,

"Skiing" Style: Fast, technical skier, mixed radius, club racing (SL, GS), aggressive (not a gorilla), steeps, trees, pow, corn.

I like the specs on the ATV, but being as I don't know a lot about how various dimensions go together, tail and tip length, flex, etc... as well as what makes the perfect TR, I need some help.

Starting with the specs from a Prior ATV 167/171:

http://www.priorsnowboards.com/boards_atv.php<!-- begin specs --><STYLE type=text/css><!--.boardSpecs tr td { font-size:10px !important;}--></STYLE><TABLE class=boardSpecs><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD></TD><TD></TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Length (cm)</TD><TD>161</TD><TD>167</TD><TD>171</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Effective Edge (cm)</TD><TD>129</TD><TD>135</TD><TD>139</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Nose Length (cm)</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>22</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Tail Length (cm)</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>10</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Nose Width (cm)</TD><TD>28.5</TD><TD>28.6</TD><TD>28.6</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Tail Width (cm)</TD><TD>28.1</TD><TD>28.2</TD><TD>28.2</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Waist (cm)</TD><TD>23.5</TD><TD>23.5</TD><TD>23.5</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Radius (m)</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>9.5</TD><TD>10</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Taper (mm)</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD><TD>4</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Insert Setbacks (cm)</TD><TD>2.5</TD><TD>2.5</TD><TD>2.5</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Stance (in)</TD><TD>17"-22"</TD><TD>17"-22"</TD><TD>17"-22"</TD></TR><TR><TD class=rowHeader>Suggested Rider

Weight Range (kg/lb)

</TD><TD>50-80/

110-175

</TD><TD>60-90/

130-200

</TD><TD>70-100/

160-220+

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

So, what would you tweak?

[Guest]

So why do you want to get a board like the atv? If you ride mostly on smaller hills, why not get a dedicated carver to make the most of your runs? Also, how often do you get out west? Is that what this is mainly for?

[nurse ben]

So why do you want to get a board like the atv? If you ride mostly on smaller hills, why not get a dedicated carver to make the most of your runs? Also, how often do you get out west? Is that what this is mainly for?

I guess the best answer is because I'm not a dedicated carver :)

I see what you mean, but in all honesty I'm still a skier, so there's a very good chance that I'll ski when the snow is hard, since I already have carving skis.

I go out West a lot, ~20-25 days, daughter is moving to SLC so that'll probably be where we end up in a couple years.

This board would fill the gap between my "future" dedicated carver and my soft snow boards.

In skier terminology, I'm looking for an all around "mid fat", which seems to be the ATV :)

[Gcarve]

Did you give Sean all this info that you posted above? What were his suggestions?

[Guest]

I guess the best answer is because I'm not a dedicated carver :)

I see what you mean, but in all honesty I'm still a skier, so there's a very good chance that I'll ski when the snow is hard, since I already have carving skis.

I go out West a lot, ~20-25 days, daughter is moving to SLC so that'll probably be where we end up in a couple years.

This board would fill the gap between my "future" dedicated carver and my soft snow boards.

In skier terminology, I'm looking for an all around "mid fat", which seems to be the ATV :)

Not sure what you mean by "dedicated carver." I ride alpine but I don't just use the board to carve. It does it all. The reason I ask is because you usually don't see a ton of fresh, light snow, so why get a wider board? Sans park, you can still do it all with a normal alpine board.

[Jack M]

Check out the Donek Saber 170 GS. Pretty spot-on specs if you ask me. For softboots I think you'll appreciate the width.

http://www.donek.com/saber_carve.html

[snowboardfast]

Before you get a custom board made why don't you demo some boards next season. Since you said you come out west you could demo boards from Bomber and All board sports in Boulder and if you are going to SLC you could contact Billy Bordy(hardbooter.com) about demoing boards as well. You should demo some metal boards if you have not done so. The metal boards may change your mind about skiing on hard snow as they hold really well on hard snow and are smooth. You may not need to ski anymore but that is up to you? The metal boards are also smoother in choppy snow and slush as I found out by riding my Donek 184 GS in slush and it is smoother than my Dupraz D1. However the Dupraz is better in deep powder which is what I mostly use it for anyway.The other option for demoing boards is SES. Demo a carve specfic metal board as you are already have a board for soft snow and are thinking about getting a split board for BC. You could also demo boards from Donek as well. Demo first before going custom.

[nurse ben]

You guys are just killing me!

I don't ride soft boots, i have two pair of UPZ hard boots and three sets of plate bindings, but they are all mounted on wide directional twins.

What I'm trying to do is put together a quiver, so I started with some fat directional twins, partly because I wasn't sure if hard booting would still be my thing after being gone for so long, but secondly I have big feet and I am not ready for/or possibly even interested in running high angles. I may end up being one of those low angle kinda guys:eek:

So, humor me here, yes I am going to talk to Sean and I'll be sure to expose my soul, but I'd also like to get some forum feedback as well, just to get some balance.

Don't some of you ride hard boots at low angles on all of your boards? What boards are you riding?

Am I wrong in thinking that the Incline, Saber, And Razor are not built for hard boots and plates? Is the Axxess just a narrower Saber or is there more to it, ie materials, stiffness?

I'm talking to Sean tomorrow...

[snowboardfast]

Hard boots work better with steeper angles. I ride 50 and 45 on my Donek 172 AX and several other am alpine boards with 21 cm waists. On carve specfic boards I wil ride 55 and 50 because I like to be facing foward more and am riding a stiffer boot. Those boards have widths of 18 and 20 cm. I found that the only board that I like to ride 45 and 40 on is the Dupraz D1 because it is wide for me-26 cm waist and I only ride that board on a real powder day-more than 6'' of new snow. I can ride 45 and 40 on the AX but it doesn't feel right for me. I am not riding steep angles but used to ride 60 and 60 with ski boots years ago on an 18cm Nitro race board. I ride the Deluxe lemans boot on all mountain boards-donekAX and Dupraz d1 and others. I ride Deluxe Susaka for the other carve specfic boards because it is taller and stiffer. The lemans boot is lower and softer and works better for all mountain use. I do not use BTS on either pair of boots as it makes them way too soft for me. Also if your stance is too wide with mellow angles that won't work very well either. I went down to 19" width after riding 20" for a while. I found that my back was hurting with the 20" stance and I was getting shinbang. I have a 30" inseam so no need to go way wide with stance for me. I have been riding Sidewinders and won't ride anything else as I really like them! That does not mean you would have to. I only ride a mondo 26 boot as my feet are small. The Razor Saber and Incline are designed for soft boots. I had a Razor for a short while but replaced it with the aX because I am not interested in soft boots anymore. I rode the Razor with Burton DriverX boots and Catek free ride bindings. angles were 30 and 25. The AX and other all mountain alpine boards are torsionally stiffer than the Razor to handle the extra forces of hard boots. Sean could give you more specfic info about the differences in construction between the boards. I hope this answers your questions? You would have to ride wider boards due to bigger feet. I still say demo boards before getting custom built. I also have demoed twin tip boards with softboots and duck stance but not for me. Have ridden tons of set ups over the years. Haven't tried a swallowtail but I doubt I will?

[Guest]

What I'm trying to do is put together a quiver, so I started with some fat directional twins, partly because I wasn't sure if hard booting would still be my thing after being gone for so long, but secondly I have big feet and I am not ready for/or possibly even interested in running high angles. I may end up being one of those low angle kinda guys:eek:

Don't some of you ride hard boots at low angles on all of your boards? What boards are you riding?

I'm talking to Sean tomorrow...

What do you consider low angles? HArd boots don't work well under the 40's or so, at least not in my opinion. As for what I ride, 57/54 for my 187 Prior FLC (groomer deck) and 47/44 for my 178 Prior Fissile for the pow.

You said you are building a quiver, so why get a board that does everything so-so, but not one particular thing really well? You have wider boards, so why get an "all mountain" hardboot board when you can get a true alpine stick and take it all over the mountain?

[leeho730]

Sounds like you might want skinny incline with waist width of 23.5...

[Jack M]

You guys are just killing me!

I don't ride soft boots,

Me:

6', 200#

Boots: UPZ ATB (soft) BSL 312

Thought you said those were softboots. For hardboots I'd say go for an Axxess 172, or Prior 4WD, or Coiler All-Mtn. Sean or Chris or Bruce can easily make it wider if you want.

Am I wrong in thinking that the Incline, Saber, And Razor are not built for hard boots and plates? Is the Axxess just a narrower Saber or is there more to it, ie materials, stiffness?

I'm talking to Sean tomorrow...

Sean will give you the details, but any Donek will handle hardboots and plates.

[nurse ben]

Sorry, when i said soft in parenthese, I meant soft flexing. i actually ride with them unlocked as well, preferring more forward "free" flex feeling.

I think the high vs low angle is a personal preference. For instance, when I telemark, I am a major knee dragger, skiing very low, some folks say that I ski too low, yet I rip the mountain on tele. My point is that what works is what works.

So for now, 40/45 is where my comfort level stands. And yes, wide stance and steeper angles don't work well, which is why I'm replacing the MFR with the Experience; the MRF is just a tad too wide between inserts, even with canting.

Okay, so I went and reviewed all of the Doneks models and a wide Axxess is a possibility, as is a narrower Incline. Are there any specifics in terms of taper, tip and tail rise, metal or no metal that you find to improve performance in Donek boards? I don't ride switch and I won't be riding soft boots, so there's not much need for a rounded tail, though some upturn will help break the tail free.

Is there a simple formula for estimating angles based on bsl and board width?

[scrapster]

Hey Ben,

I've experimented with some of the set-ups that you're considering. Sean will pretty much make you anything you want--it's really fantastic.

He mentioned that many folks are riding the Razor with hardboots, and I believe it has the same core as some of his hardboot-specific boards. I can attest that it's a wonderful carver. Having that extra edge length with the user-friendly benefits of decambering is heavenly. I choose to add the dampening from the BX oriented Saber series. Note, I'm using it as a softy carver though.

He could easily stiffen one up, lengthen the sidecut and narrow the waist down for hardboots. I think a wider axxess would be your other choice. I'm sure Mr. Martin will set you on a good path! Have fun.

PS- In reference to the ATV specs above, I was able to take my little 160 Razor up to 139cm effective edge thanks to the decamber, which the ATV doesn't have.

[Gcarve]

Are there any specifics in terms of taper, tip and tail rise, metal or no metal that you find to improve performance in Donek boards?

I'd definitely recommend getting a metal board, if it is available in the model you end up chosing. Just my 0.02

[Donek]

The Axxess and Incline series are very closely related. So widening the Axxess or narrowing the incline will produce very similar results.

below are some (not all) basic characteristics of the different constructions.

Glass: great in most conditions, more lively feel

metal: more expensive, easy to ride, very damp, works well in all conditions, not quite as durable as fiberglass

carbon: more expensive, easy to ride, almost as damp as metal, works well in all conditions, super light weight, not as durable as metal

[nurse ben]

Hey Sean,

I called a couple times lat last week and kept missing you, hope you don't mind me asking for tips on the forum :)

I did learn something: Metal in boards is not like metal in skis

I ride some very stiff, twin titanal slalom skis for my everyday carvers, and they are very demanding, not a ski for getting lazy. So I sorta assumed that metal boards would be the same, but I see that is not the case.

As part of my learning, I read about all the boards that folks suggest and look at dimensions, etc... I think if I was smaller, weight and/or feet, there's be more choices (like that used 168 Coiler), but I just ain't gonna do well on a long skinny board right now, esp on my local short hills.

I think I'm leaning toward wider (23), shorter (165) and stiffer, more of a slalom board or BX board, this will give me something to learn on for local riding, maybe even some club racing, and I can increase my angles and see how it feels. Once I'm carving hard and picking up speed and control, then a longer metal board might work fine.

Hey Sean, I'll try to call you today if I get a break.

[Donek]

Hey Sean,

I called a couple times lat last week and kept missing you, hope you don't mind me asking for tips on the forum :)

I did learn something: Metal in boards is not like metal in skis

I ride some very stiff, twin titanal slalom skis for my everyday carvers, and they are very demanding, not a ski for getting lazy. So I sorta assumed that metal boards would be the same, but I see that is not the case.

As part of my learning, I read about all the boards that folks suggest and look at dimensions, etc... I think if I was smaller, weight and/or feet, there's be more choices (like that used 168 Coiler), but I just ain't gonna do well on a long skinny board right now, esp on my local short hills.

I think I'm leaning toward wider (23), shorter (165) and stiffer, more of a slalom board or BX board, this will give me something to learn on for local riding, maybe even some club racing, and I can increase my angles and see how it feels. Once I'm carving hard and picking up speed and control, then a longer metal board might work fine.

Hey Sean, I'll try to call you today if I get a break.

No problem getting people talking about boards.

In general the metal boards these days are easier to ride, but the race stuff is moving in the direction of your experiences with the metal skis. The new Rev line (Race) will definitely take more work from the rider. Using a plate will minimize that some.

The dimensions you are describing are not a problem, you could go with a Saber or Incline for what you describe. The saber will be more damp and a bit softer flexing with a fair bit more taper.