New Bicycle arrived - Finally

[C5 Golfer]

Picked up my new ride Sat... Thought I'd show it off. It is a Serotta Legend Ti with Mavic wheels and Michelins. Ultegra and a fine Brooks saddle.

I replaced the photo -- the other was quite distorted due to *7$%tty Camera.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Hmmmmm.

[C5 Golfer]

Hmmmmm.

three for now.. left room to shorten it by one later in the spring and after I get used to such a position change from my old bike.

[C5 Golfer]

are you like 7 feet tall?

Close - 6'3" with long legs and long arms. The Legend frame is a 63cm -- my old Sekai is a 65cm frame.

[AaronG]

Nice bike C5!!

As we mature in years our backs can't tolerate the 4-6" drop between saddle height and bar height so we add some spacers to get the bars up to a realisti height. Not only does it save your back, but it keeps your hands from going numb and also keeps you from having to lift your head all the time. As you can probably tell I run spacers on my stem also, no harm in it when you are looking to keep in shape rather than racing in a crit or road race where aerodynamics are essential.

Nice, King headset!! Mavic Ksyriums, Reynolds fork, I would assume full carbon on the fork? Did you specify the parts? Have you owned the Brooks since new?? Is that a Ti post or just aluminum??

Enjoy the Ti ride!!

one other thing, don't run your gears in the extreme combinations, i.e. big ring front/ big cog back or small ring front/small cog back. These combos just put too much stress on the chain, having to flex to make those combos work. YOu have 20 gears, there is another one that will put less strain on the drivetrain that will be close to the equivalent.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

6ft 3in long arms and legs - running 61/63's depending on manu.

Long post on the roadie, not so long on the cross bike

Really long post on the Mtb set up.

I still race so I get that nasty drop, but I love bikin.

You gotta try my VanDessel Gin and Trombones.

[Jon Dahl]

After riding with him once at Crystal, I can vouch for him being all of 6'3"! And props on that sweet bike! Makes my old road bike look ancient!

[Gecko]

DAMN that's talllllll....I've never been able to ride a road bike properly sized to me. I've always felt comfortable on a bike 2-3 cm smaller than I'm supposed to ride. Still very very nice

[C5 Golfer]

Nice bike C5!!

Nice, King headset!! Mavic Ksyriums, Reynolds fork, I would assume full carbon on the fork? Did you specify the parts? Have you owned the Brooks since new?? Is that a Ti post or just aluminum??

Enjoy the Ti ride!!

.

That is a Serotta Fork F3 with 8.3 stiffness., Yes I spec'd the parts, River City out of Portland measured me about 6 weeks ago, ordered the frame and fork to my size, and then built the bike. It is a Ritchey carbon seat post. The Brooks I bought 1 month ago from Wallingford Bike , I have the Professional and the B17, running the B-17 right now on the Serotta, the Professional is now on the Sekai. I still like my Sekai and will be adding fenders to it for rain days, I am considering Full Wood Fenders - real wood- they look so nice. So far the B-17 is very comfortable -- but I think it is due to my 215 lbs - which in MO will break in a Brooks sooner than a 140 lb dude.

[AaronG]

Geez, look at all these people piping up about the size of the frame. There are times when I wish I was 5' 8", bike riding is one of those times so I can ride those smaller frames. Big guys need big bikes!!!

I'm 6' 02" so I need the larger frames too, if it doesn't have an XL or at least a 60 cm size frame, forget it!!

[Steve Prokopiw]

I built up a 62cm Soma Smoothie in my shop last summer(Silverpro Bike Shop, Kellogg, Idaho; open by appointment) It was for a 6'5" 265 lb fifteen year old whose dad wanted him to stop borrowing his 5'11" mom's mtb. I used 600 gram 36h Vuelta rims and 28c tires and retro shimano 600 AX centerpull brakes,but it still came in under 24lbs. I had to have a taller friend test ride it... He loves it. By the way, I have a 200cm monoski that I used mounted as a snowboard for several seasons that would look great standing next to the Serotta!

[Justin A.]

are you like 7 feet tall?

Thats exactly what I was thinking lol. Somebody ate his spinach growing up :D . I've got a tiny little bike- I'm 6'0" and ride Medium frames most of the time (16.5" mountain 56cm road) . Wierd....I guess I just have stumpy little legs.

Nice bike C5! Not what I was expecting it to look like (mostly I didn't think it would look like a skyscraper ;) ), but still a beautiful piece of work. Have fun riding it! I was planning on getting back into the saddle this week as it looked like Old Man Winter was about to let up on us a bit here, but woke up this morning and it's 2 degrees ... Enjoy the new ride!

[C5 Golfer]

Thats exactly what I was thinking lol. Somebody ate his spinach growing up :D . I've got a tiny little bike- I'm 6'0" and ride Medium frames most of the time (16.5" mountain 56cm road) . Wierd....I guess I just have stumpy little legs.

Nice bike C5! Not what I was expecting it to look like (mostly I didn't think it would look like a skyscraper ;) ), but still a beautiful piece of work. Have fun riding it! I was planning on getting back into the saddle this week as it looked like Old Man Winter was about to let up on us a bit here, but woke up this morning and it's 2 degrees ... Enjoy the new ride!

Justin -- how much seat post do you show on that 56 road bike.. if you are 6'0" you must have at least 32" inseam. But to each his own and "what ever works for you" as the great Jack Nicklaus once said.

Regarding Tall Bikes...Wonder if the Rim and Tire companies could make us a 770c tire set up them our bikes would look just like yours.

Proportionally that is, in a photo without a known size item , one would think it is just a standard old bike with a 56-58 frame.

[Kent]

I'm confused...was that a custom build for you?

Here's my new ride...although it's completely changed from the photo (lowered seat obviously, longer stem, removed a few spacers, new handlebars and toss'd on a SRM)

[C5 Golfer]

I'm confused...was that a custom build for you?

Here's my new ride...although it's completely changed from the photo (lowered seat obviously, longer stem, removed a few spacers, new handlebars and toss'd on a SRM)

Yes custom build for me.

I am no expert but is that bike a little small for you? Seems like if you were to stand up with feet on the floor you have about 6" plus of space between your pubic bone and the top tube. ( if you lowered the seat are you not giving up some power by not letting your knee come to almost straight at BDC??) But if it rides for you and you like it it is a good fit. Happy Trails!

[Gecko]

I'm with Justin, I'm 6'1" and my last road frame was a 56cm, my present bike is an Urban Cruiser, think oversized BMX bike, very small, 24" wheels, discs front and rear, switch between shock and no shock in the front depending. Lots of seatpost is fine by me i want a short wheelbase and toptube...fast handling is more important to me than highspeed stablity

[C5 Golfer]

I'm with Justin, I'm 6'1" and my last road frame was a 56cm, my present bike is an Urban Cruiser, think oversized BMX bike, very small, 24" wheels, discs front and rear, switch between shock and no shock in the front depending. Lots of seatpost is fine by me i want a short wheelbase and toptube...fast handling is more important to me than highspeed stablity

All good stuff and opinions.. sometimes it may start with a question of what do you want to do with the bike or what can this bike do for you. Could switch it to snowboard length choices .. some like those 220cm board and some like the 162 salom for a same size guy. both are good choices if the rider likes riding it. You mention fast handling is more important than highspeed stability for you -- just the opposite with me. I bought this bike for long distance road cruising so fast handling is not wanted/needed. I wanted comfort, you or Justin may be many years younger than I, small bike with low handle bars mean more Advil or Aleve for me.

But here is an interesting read amoung others out there.. using the below info 6' 0" guy with approx 32" inseam = approx road bike size of 54-55cm. A 6'3" guy with a 35" or so inseam = approx road bike size of 62-63cm. It is all approx. flexibility and what you want the bike to do should figue in there too!

I am sure a bike fitting and size discussion would take more beer than any of us can haul and still not have a definate answer.

Bike Fitting Formulas

The Basics of Bike Fitting

The formulas discussed here yield starting positions for "normal" road and mountain bike sport / performance riding. They (or slight variations) are the foundation of virtually every fitting system in use today.

Fitting systems based on body measurements can provide a good starting position. To get a position really "dialed-in" to perfection, most riders will need to "tweak" the position - make small adjustments, up, forward, back, down, to accommodate their personal flexibility, range of motion, and other bio-mechanical variations.

Time-trial, triathlon, crit, downhill and other specialized riding events require different positions because the emphasis on various criteria such as power, endurance, comfort and aerodynamics change. However, the basic principle, that the geometry of the position is a function of the rider's anatomy remains the same. To my knowledge, these differences have not been published anywhere, but are embodied in many commercial fitting systems and fitting calculators.

Cyclemetrics' FitStik can be used both for measuring a rider's anatomy, and position tweaking (a well-known pro dubbed it a "truing stand for your riding position"). For info on position tweaking, click here.

FRAME SIZE AND SEAT HEIGHT - The "LeMond Formulas"

The frame and seat height tables on the back of the use formulas originated by engineer, Wilfried Hüggi, and one of Greg LeMond's cycling coaches, Cyrille Guimard. I first saw the formulas in Greg's book, Greg LeMond's Complete Book of Bicycling, published in 1987. For a thorough discussion of the formulas, and a broad overview of fit, Greg's book is recommended. Further discussion of these formulas (and other generally sound fit advice) can be found on the Bike Fit Page of the Colorado Cyclist's Web Site.

BIKE FRAME SIZE (in cm) = Inseam (cm) x .67

This gives the recommended size for a road bike frame, measuring from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the seat tube (also called center-to-top or c-t sizing)*.

Larger riders (6'0" and up) who want a frame that allows them to stretch out, may be better off selecting a frame 27-28cm less than their inseam length. In general, this will be a cm or two larger than the frames the formula recommends.

Mountain Bike frame sizes are generally 10 to 12 centimeters (4-5 inches) smaller than road frames.

On both mountain & road bikes, if it comes down to choosing between two sizes, choose the one that matches the length requirement most closely.

I.E., bikes on either side of the suggested size allow the same saddle position, but tend to be shorter or longer than the suggested size. Choose the one which allows the rider to bend over to the desired degree. As a general rule, larger riders tend to be more comfortable with a slightly larger frame, while smaller riders often do better with a slightly smaller frame.

* The original formula used a factor of .65 times inseam to give a size measured as center-to-center (center of the bottom bracket to center of the top tube). These days many bikes use odd-sized tubing, sloping top-tubes and other non-traditional geometries, so center-to-center sizing is less meaningful. Accordingly, the factor was adjusted slightly to yield the center-to-top. Remember: if the length of the top-tube is right, you can usually adjust the seat height and setback to obtain a good fit.

[Kent]

Yes custom build for me.

I am no expert but is that bike a little small for you? Seems like if you were to stand up with feet on the floor you have about 6" plus of space between your pubic bone and the top tube. ( if you lowered the seat are you not giving up some power by not letting your knee come to almost straight at BDC??) But if it rides for you and you like it it is a good fit. Happy Trails!

Too small? Not according the head of R&D at Cannondale. My last bike was a 54cm and this SystemSix is a 56cm. I "could" ride a 58, but there's a BIG difference in a 56 to a 58...as you're now effecting wheelbase, rake and all sorts of issues. Having raced bikes for 30 years now...IMO, a 120 stem (110 is on that bike, btw) with a 56cm top tube handles MUCH better than a 58 top tube at a 100cm stem.

That's kinda the reason why I a bit baffled by the Serotta work. Don't get me wrong, they do a great job..but I've never seen them spec a bike with that rise. I'm surprise they didn't opt of a sloping downtube. No biggie as it gets you to the same space.

As for fit, it really comes down to:

1) Comfort

2) Power

3) Aerodynamics

My seat height is based upon my power readings. Generally speaking I'm on the "high" side of most fits. I can take a new pix tonight if you'ld like. A video would be more accurate than a static shot of me trying to smile. Plus, I don't ride that bike in the trainer. It was only for fitting.

I own a FitStick and here's my "other" bike and the new bike. It's AMAZING to see that you can't simple take measurement from a website..you MUST use a FitStick. This pix is before all the changes....so I leveled of the saddle, took out some spacers and purposely went with more reach.

Hope all helps....yes, the Cervelo was/is a 54cm. Where's the TWO cm top tube difference. Look close, it's in the BACK rather than the front. Very strange as its b/c of the goofy seat post tube. The 2nd pix seat hight is correct. Pictures centered from the BB.

K

[Justin A.]

Justin -- how much seat post do you show on that 56 road bike.. if you are 6'0" you must have at least 32" inseam. But to each his own and "what ever works for you" as the great Jack Nicklaus once said.

I've got a 31" inseam actually :( . Stubby little legs, I know. I don't show much seatpost, about 5" maybe? I'll check and take a picture in the morning. It's comfortable though. I can ride the L frame, but I'm MUCH more comfortable on the M. The Large just feels....large. Like I'm laying out on my big fat belly. And hey, Jack Nicklaus sure knew what he was talking about. I actually prefer his "sweeping" technique to taking a divot, every time. Definitley my favorite Ledgend.

[AaronG]

You guys that are riding the small frames even though you are 6 foot plus, here is a question, do you experience toe overlap?? I would think that with a 56 cm or medium frame that overlap would be a huge problem.

Overlap is when you have your feet in the 3:00/9:00 position and turn the bars the tire contacts your shoe.

YOu guys don't eexperience this?? Are you guys riding traditional geometry or compact frames??

[kipstar]

Hey Kent

What happened to the Scott?

I thought you were going to get the niiice Scott Tri bike?

[Gecko]

You guys that are riding the small frames even though you are 6 foot plus, here is a question, do you experience toe overlap?? I would think that with a 56 cm or medium frame that overlap would be a huge problem.

Overlap is when you have your feet in the 3:00/9:00 position and turn the bars the tire contacts your shoe.

YOu guys don't eexperience this?? Are you guys riding traditional geometry or compact frames??

I know what overlap is and at least for me no I use short cranks. It's a trade off I know but in response to the comments above I'm 40 years old and never really liked to ride long and fast, Sprinting and such was always what I preferred...damn, I really need to build a Fixxie this summer

[Justin A.]

You guys that are riding the small frames even though you are 6 foot plus, here is a question, do you experience toe overlap?? I would think that with a 56 cm or medium frame that overlap would be a huge problem.

Overlap is when you have your feet in the 3:00/9:00 position and turn the bars the tire contacts your shoe.

YOu guys don't eexperience this?? Are you guys riding traditional geometry or compact frames??

Not particularly. Some of my MTB habits carry over onto the road- specifically my cornering practices. Any time that I'm over far enough that I would have overlap, I'm at 12:00/6:00. I ride a compact frame by Giant...I do have some overlap if I turn the wheel and I'm standing still and have my foot at 3/9, but when I'm riding it never happens.

[Kent]

Hey Kent

What happened to the Scott?

I thought you were going to get the niiice Scott Tri bike?

Good memory. The SystemSix has tested stiffer (and lighter) than the CR1...and has replaceable dropouts (not that I ever bent one on a road bike). My 56cm with cages, SpeedPlay Zeros AND SRM come in at 16.1. I could easily drop another 1.5lbs if I wanted to (brakes, stem, seat post, seat). But, considering I keep 3.2 pounds of water on my bike, it's kinda pointless.

As for clearance...I just measured and I have 2cm at 3:00. But, I can't really think of a situation where that would be an issue if there was overlap. Cyclocross bikes are notorious for little/no clearance and that's a sport where is matters most (tight turns and reverse pedalling to get into position).

I wouldn't consider my bike small (I'm 5'11"), rather I'd consider it a racer-fit. You would be hard pressed to find a pro rider using anything under a 120cm stem, which would indicate the length is taken off the top tube. Then again, most pros are more stretched out than the average non-racer.

Surprised Mr. Jenney hasn't popped up in this discussion yet.....

[C5 Golfer]

Phunny how each sport has it own little peculiarities-- Golf for example size of golf clubs could easily have this same discussion. When I was asked by several local "what do you have 1-2 inch longer shafts?" I say "No, just standard length”. That discussion on shaft length and Lie Angle could go on on. With my long arms even tho a 6’3” frame my wrists come to the same distance to the floor as a 5’9” guy. Christ! I have an 81” wingspan, I need short clubs not longer ones! But also I believe a longer shafted club is harder to hit, but some say they are easier to hit. So it goes. Snowboard length too! Never one finally answer, except Jack Nicklaus – “What ever works for you”

Justin - What is your handicap? I play to a 8.5, was a 7.0 but that was when I didn't work and played 5 days a week.

Below is another interesting read… I take from all the good discussion above each of you have different uses and desires for your bike ride. I personally can’t stand a small bike below me – Rode em – Hate em. Hey – It is ok to ride what ever you like. I have comfort at the top of my bike requirements; I do not sprint or race. You may have a different Number 1 goal, which is where we may diverge. But first paragraph or so from RivBike says quite a bit.!!! :) :)

http://www.rivbike.com/how_to_pick_your_bike/choosing_a_frame_size

Too-small bikes are not comfortable

Every day we talk to folks who bought a $3,500 titanium this, or a $2,500 carbon fiber that, and now that the honeymoon is over, they realize it's not comfortable. Sore neck, sore lower back, sore hand---and almost without exceptions it's caused by a frame that's too small and doesn't let them raise the bars high enough to cure these ills. Understandably, they're feeling foolish and bummed out.

Handlebars too low cause 90 percent of the discomfort people suffer. And buying a frame too small guarantees that the bars will be too low. Often, people size bikes by the top tube length. Since the reach to the bars is so obviously important, it makes sense to be concerned about the top tube length. But don't let it lead you around by the nostrils. If the top tube is in the right ballpark, you do the fine-tuning with stem length. Also, there's a good deal of misunderstanding about the effect of top tube length. Scroll down a bit and you'll see how a shallower seat tube angle and higher handlebars can make a bike with a 59cm top tube feel shorter (in the reach) than one with a 57cm tt. Don't go there yet, though.

Sizing Trends

If you look at old racing photos or drawings, you'll see bikes with "a fistfull of seat post" showing. That was the rule --- a fistfull of post. You bought a frame size that, when the saddle was set at the right height for you, exposed a fistfull of seat post! If in order to get the saddle at the right height, it required much more than a fistfull of seat post, then the frame was too small. These days, "a fistfull of seat post" sounds quaintly stupid, charmingly naive, cute but dumb, stay away from me with your dangerous folk medicines!

And yet, riders back then were a lot more comfortable. We aren't suggesting that you go by "a fistfull of seat post," but that simplistic approach was (and still is) successful because it allowed the handlebar to be close to the height of the saddle. So it resulted in a fit that took weight off your hands, and strain off your neck and lower back. (It also allows sufficient standover clearance. In other words, when you straddle your bike, your genitals may rest on the top tube, but your pubic bone will easily clear it -- as you'll notice if you grab a handful of genitals and pull up. Apologies if this is too graphic for you.)

In those days, most saddles were leather, and most leather saddles (of any vintage) sit higher above the saddle rails than do modern plastic saddles. So, on a modern plastic saddle, the equivalent rule might be "seven fingers of post." Of course, fingers vary in fatness. Fitting and sizing are not sciences.

How to Size any Bike, Including Ours

Want some sort of a concrete recommendation for sizing a road bike? Okay. You have to know your saddle height. If you know your saddle height, read the chart below. If you don't know your saddle height, take off your shoes, stand on a hard surface with your feet 10-inches apart, and measure between your legs (the tape measure should be right in the middle) from the floor to your pubic bone. Not your genitals. Hit the bone. Figure out how to do this using a thin, hardcover book and a metal tape.

Your floor-to-pubic bone measurement is your pubic bone height.

example: If you are 5 feet 9 1/2, your pubic bone might be 85cm. Your saddle height will be about 75cm.

Once you've determined your saddle height, you have a simple subtraction to determine a good frame size. "A good frame size" doesn't mean it's the only size for you. The whole purpose of sizing is too give you a comfortable riding position, and for most people that means getting the bars level with, or within a couple centimeters, of the saddle height. The lower the number you subtract, the higher the bars can be. In France or England in the '40s, you'd subtract about 15cm. In the case above, that would have that 5-foot 9 1/2 inch rider on a 60cm frame.

If that same rider got sized in 10 different bike shops, probably 5 of them would suggest a 54 to 55. One would say a 53, two would say a 56, and one would say a 57. The more expensive the bike, the more likely the size is to be small.

If you're psychologically uncomfortable with a frame so big, instead of subtracting 15 from your saddle height, subtract 16. If you're a tall guy and have long arms, go 17--but be prepared to use a stem with an upslope, or a long quill, because on a typical modern road bike with a level top tube, a small-stack headset, and a short-quilled stem, a 17cm difference between saddle height and frame size will put them bars too low (for comfort).

Sizing Rivendells (the bikes we design)

When you come to us already owning two or three or half a dozen or more bikes, and I recommend a size two to five centimeters bigger than the bikes you already own and have spent lots of money on, your brain tries to reconcile what you have (and have spent lots of money on) with what I’ve just recommended.

Sizing chart for Riv-designed frames by Pubic Bone Height (PBH) & Saddle Height (SH). For 700c, 26 mtn, and 650B wheels.

PBH SH 700c 26 mtn 650

76 66 52 47 - 51 49 - 50.5

77 66.5 - 66 53 51 52

78 67.5 - 68 53 - 54 51 53

79 68.5 - 69 54 - 54.5 53 54

80 69.5 - 70 55 53 - 54.5 54 - 55

81 70.5 - 71 56 53.5 - 55 55 - 56

82 71.5 - 72 56.5 - 57 54.5 - 56 56.5 - 57.5

83 72.5 - 73 57.5 - 58 55 - 57 57 - 58

84 73.5 - 74 58 - 59 55.5 - 58 57 - 58.5

85 74.5 - 75 58.5 - 60 56 - 59 58 - 59.5

86 75.5 - 76 59 - 61 56.5 - 60 58.5 - 60.5

87 76.5 - 77 60 - 62 57 - 61 60 - 61.5

88 77.5 - 78 60.5 - 62.5 57.5 - 62 60.5 - 62

89 78.5 - 79 61 - 63 58 - 62.5 61 - 62.5

90 79.5 - 80 62 - 64 58.5 - 63 61.5 - 63

91 80.5 - 81 63 - 65 59 - 64 62

92 81.5 - 82 64 - 66.5 59.5 - 65 62

93 82.5 - 83 65 - 68 60 - 66 too big for one

94 83.5 - 84 66.5 -68 60.5 - 68 too big for one

95 84.5 - 85 67 -69 61 - 68 see above

This chart is a guide, and the numbers are based on extensive experience with several thousand riders over the past decade or so. Variances will be minor, but no chart can account for personal preferences or extreme crank lengths, and so forth.

For any given size, the standover heights (height of the top tube) are lower, because the bottom bracket is closer to the ground and the seat tube angle is shallower (less vertical). “Lower top tubes” is not the goal in itself, it is just a result of the frame design. But it is a key reason you can straddle a bigger one-of-our-bikes than one-of-theirs.

Standover clearance, though, is a highly overrated. You need to be able to straddle the bike when waiting for the light to turn, but you don’t need oodles of clearance. You pay for extra clearance with lower handlebars and less comfort, so at some point you have to ask: “Am I getting this bike so I can stand over it and see two fists of air between the top tube and my crotch, or do I want to be comfortable all day long?”

The Consumer Products Safety Commission requires an inch between top tube and crotch, but doesn’t define “crotch.” To us it means pubic bone. Everything we do here, frame-sizingwise, revolves around pubic bone height. When you get a Rivendell, you get at least an inch of clearance, and usually more.

Every builder has, or at least ought to have, a bias to his frames. Our bias is comfort. From comfort comes efficiency, strength, endurance, control, and fun. The best way to achieve comfort is with higher handlebars, and the first step toward higher handlebars is a larger frame size.

A Good Position For Many Riders

When you're in your riding position with your hands on the hoods, you should be able to remove your hands-put them behind your back, even-without ploppingdown onto the stem. For most riders, that means a back angle of 45-to-50 degrees.

We're less adamant about the knee position relative to the pedal, but mention our preference here only to get you thinking. We like it behind the center of the pedal, because that way, the downstroke helps you maintain a rearward position on the saddle. If it's directly above it, you tend to scooch forward more. In any case, it is not easy to achieve this position with a normal, off-the-shelf bicycle and conventional sizing methods.

Here are some other things related to fit that 99.999 percent of the experts don't know, haven't considered, and don't talk about

* As the handlebar gets higher, your arm becomes more horizontal, effectively getting longer.