[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

I think that you've applied flawed logic to couple of the points above...

It's not really flawed logic. I was just walking through my personal board length selection criteria. However, I said that I wasn't making a compromise on point 1 in my opinion. Technically I am making a compromise there, because I've ridden some larger big mountain boards and they did give me even more security at speed than a short board.

Certainly, when the powder flattens out, a short board can leave you up the creek without a paddle. I don't ride a ton of powder, and the powder I do ride is 99% of the time in the steep trees. If there's a flat section up ahead, I drop the hammer and haul a$$ on the section leading up to it. ...then I follow someone else's tracks through it. The people I ride with never wait for me because I lost my momentum on a flat section. I'm the one waiting for them.

So, as the OP's original inguiry was mostly about riding bumpy/choppy snow with speed and dampness, I still think that longer board is a better choice.

I the question was riding the moguls or trees, that would have changed the things quite a bit.

Agreed. I was somewhat hijacking the thread when I asked why you guys like such long boards. The feedback I got was very instructive, though, so I can't say I feel bad about it.:)

[Riding moguls]

once these east coast moguls get firm and rutty, I can't control speed.

I just got back from riding Mary Jane tonight. I was working on the uphill-side mogul scrub technique (since I only started doing it last weekend). I haven't done it on hard moguls yet, but it seems like it might even be easier to do on hard ones than on ones with a bunch of powder right on top. The powder is always shooting out and blasting me in the face. If the snow were more packed, a good, sharp edge (or a Magnetraction edge) will provide a powerful scrub.

Let's look at a heelside edge turn with a mogul face scrub: The idea is to aim your board right at the big, broad face of the mogul. You let the nose of the board climb up the face, while absorbing the shock with your knees. When the tail of your board clears the downhill face of the previous mogul, kick your uphill foot out in front of you. The board will squirt out in front of you, and you'll be able to get a good edge angle with that heelside edge on the snow.

Because you're soaking up everything with your knees, AND scrubbing right there, you can really control speed. Your board comes to a brief, full stop if you want it to. During the skid, you also pivot the board and aim it right at the next mogul. Your body still has some momentum as you continue to squat into the mogul face, so you'll have enough speed to pop up over the current mogul and start heading down to the next one.

The toeside turn with an uphill mogul face scrub is a little dicier when you're using low binding angles. I haven't mastered it yet. There's all kinds of power and flexibility in that toeside turn, I just don't feel comfortable kicking my board out as far behind me, not knowing for sure if I'm going to catch that heelside edge. Certainly, harder packed moguls will give me confidence because I won't be worried about the heelside catching a big pile of powder and sending me overboard.

Once "the hit" coming off the backside gets too firm and rutty - I do 2 or 3 turns and I'm going to fast.

I know exactly what you mean. The thing about the uphill face scrub is that it allows you to ride an edge down the backside of each mogul, never scrubbing on the worst possible (usually icy and undercut) face of the mogul. I was testing this out today, and the more effective my uphill face scrubbing is, the less fear I have of just bee-lining it straight down the downhill side to the next bump.

I haven't done it on really icy moguls yet because the snow has been really good lately, but I am really confident that this will work just as well, or even better on icy moguls.

The huge added benefit of not scrubbing on the downhill face is that you don't waste energy skipping down that crappy, undercut side. It's almost a relaxing ride down the bumps, because you have the peace of mind of knowing you can control your speed on the uphill scrub.

161 K2 Recon - old, super light, super trashed, huge base bevels - the spoon... my most fun all around bumper (I'm 6'4"). So light an maneuverable that sometimes I can unweight over a big bump, and by kicking with my trailing leg pop the board heelside, then bring it back toeside again, before coming back fully weighted. It's very fun, and I can't see ever doing that in hardboots or a longer heavier board.

This fits my description of a good bump board. ...everything but the large base bevel. With my technique, I need serious edge hold to scrub that uphill face as much as I can. I also need good edge hold to go down the back side without losing my edge. Essentially, you carve down the downhill face of the mogul, so you want those edges to hold on.

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

My T6 is the 64W version, feels perfect size wise, I guess a few mm's narrower would be good. Got any good stories regarding the T6 and it's errr, harsh qualities? On smooth snow it kicks ass but holy **** on anything resembling crud, it's like a race car on a pothole filled road.

Yep. I've had a whole lot of near catastrophes on my T6. Usually it's the flat light hiding the chop that was the biggest culprit.

Sometimes, though, that board would simply throw me for no reason (maybe that had more to do with nose detuing or base bevel). They are such hot rods, but soooo unforgiving.

Now that I have my JDub, I've tried really hard to find a niche that the T6 fills, but I can't. The JDub simply does everything better than the T6. I don't want to sell it and only get $100 for it, but I also don't have any use for it. ...and there's no way I have the heart to relegate it to rock board duty.

[Headphones for riding]

new ipod shuffle.

I agree, those little things are sweet. No doubt I tried to figure out a way to make one of those work for me. In the end, the smaller storage space is what ruled out the shuffle for me.

In my case, I was going for a completely no compromise system. Large storage capacity, isolating IEMs, and the microphone lets me have my cake and eat it, too. ...at the expense of spending an entire weekend designing and building it, and then modifying my jacket so it fits.

[Headphones for riding]

Wow, I thought how over the top, but if it works - awesome. Then I read the bit about elec. engineer and it makes more sense - still awesome.

You should see the soldering that our engineering tech does on all of our prototype boards (I totally suck compared to him). You'd be amazed what a man with a soldering iron can achieve under a microscope.

I have the JBL creature system for my computer. It has the little touch controls on one of the tweeters for volume. I touched it one day and had a big static shock and now I have no volume control.

Interesting. Usually those types of touch controls are capacitive and work exactly like the touchpad on a laptop. I've never heard of one of those being zapped.

In my experience in debugging electronics that I didn't design, 99% of the time it's a bad connection or a cold solder joint. If you have the confidence, go ahead and take it apart and examine all connectors and their solder joints closely. Do an image search on Google for "cold solder joint" if you're unsure what to look for. If you find one, reflow some solder onto it, put things back together, and try it out!

If that doesn't work, call tech support. Even having to pay JBL to fix it might be better in the long run. ...and you might get lucky and they'll fix it for free!

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

I do. I just like the surfy-ness of some nice fast arcs in my softies (I am a softboot rider that sometimes rides hardboots than the other way around).

I really would like to try a short board with a longer radius sidecut sometime. I'm thinking something around 160cm with a >10m sidecut. Does anyone even make such an animal?

My JDub is a 7.6m, which is very small. However, it really doesn't disappoint me when making drawn-out, high speed carves.

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

Thanks, Sandy, that perfectly sums it up for me.

You definitely have the same judging criteria as I do. I suppose I have tried harder to avoid my points 3 and 4, and have sacrificed a tad on point 2. ...and since I feel very comfortable at speed on my little Mag board, I don't feel that I'm making a compromise on point 1.

200 pounds is enough to flex a lot of board. ...and enough to make a small board no fun in the powder.

Thanks again!

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

I have a Tanker 187. There are many reason I like it, here are the main ones.

It has an 11.25M sidecut. Really carves some nice arcs.

Why don't you ride an alpine setup, instead of freeride, for high speed carving?

Here in MN our conditions are kind of variable. With the nice long edge it doesn't react to hard (or soft) spots as fast. I think because the edge pressure is so spread out it tends to float over a lot.

I'm certain that a shorter board with Magnetraction would give you even more confidence on ice. Have you tried a good, stiff Mag in the 160-165 range? I bet a Lib Dark Series (with your choice of camber options) might be right up your alley.

Since I got a Mag board, I literally have stopped trying to discern the condition of the snow in front of me. It just doesn't matter anymore. I haven't encountered any ice that my 154 will wash out on.

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

What's your height/weight again? I'm 6'0 about 175 and anything less than 164/165 feels too small. I demoed a Burotn custom 162 a couple years ago- I had fun but it just felt too small, like it was built for someone smaller.

I'm 5'9" and 170. What length is your T6?

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

All of your points are good and I agree with them.

That's cool that I was able to relate to you why I enjoy a shorter board (and also cool that you see my points). I still don't know why so many of you like such long freeride boards, though. Could someone indulge me?

[Headphones for riding]

My wired remote (that can be purchased

HERE) is an excellent iPod control solution. Its cable is long enough that you can plug it into your iPod (which resides safely in an inside pocket of your jacket) and hold the remote in your hand inside your mitten. The cable runs comfortably through the arm of the jacket.

It's cheap enough that you can buy a few and replace them every couple of years. I used my first one 3 years before a wire broke and I decided to replace it. Not too shabby for a piece of electronic equipment in a really harsh environment.

Because I am an endless tinkerer, I lengthened the cable so I could keep it inside the audio pocket of my jacket, and still keep the remote in my right hand.

In addition to the remote, I re-wired the Shure PTH so that its switch is located on the iPod's remote. Yes, there were 12 wires to run, but I'm an electrical engineer who can solder with a microscope, so it's actually not that bad. :o Here's a couple of close-ups of the remote now that it includes the PTH switch:

The switch is essentially potted in epoxy to keep everything nice and durable. The PTH switch allows me to switch the audio sources between the iPod and the microphone located on the jacket here:

On the inside of the jacket, you can see that there's not much clutter. The iPod and body of the PTH (which doesn't contain the switch anymore, but does contain the circuit board and battery) fit in the audio pocket, while the wires to the remote, headphones, and microphone run out the hole in the top of the pocket:

Finally, here's a closeup of how the microphone comes out of the audio pocket and quickly goes through my custom hole in the jacket, leading into one of the outside pockets. Sliding the mic through the hole, into the pocket-side of the cinch, and tightening the cinch locks the mic in place.

So there you have it. I get the best of all worlds: Shure SE530 IEMs and their unparalleled isolation and sound quality, full control over the iPod in the palm of my hand at all times, and the ability to switch to microphone mode to hear just fine.

I never said it was simple, but it is incredibly reliable. Also, it's minimally intrusive in that the only constant reminder that it's in my jacket is the remote in my hand.

[Riding moguls]

The reason why skiers can do it better is IMO that they can go through the field facing the fall line. They don't need to rotate their upper body to keep control.

Can't high binding angles achieve this?

With a snowboard, it is essential to rotate the upper body in every turn, otherwise you cannot control your edge on the lower part of the mogul.

I say don't control that edge on the low side of the mogul. It's usually icy and undercut anyway. Ride a flat board over this portion, straight at the next bump.

Additionally, as long as you face the fall line, the flexion/extension range of your legs is limited, and you need every bit of that on big moguls.

This might actually be the biggest advantage of riding duck (or at least really low binding angles)through the bumps: Tons of flexion/extension range.

Facing the fall line you would quickly become too fast, and eventually the opposed edge can get caught on the upper part of mogul, leading to a painful crash. .

Practice, practice, practice.

[Headphones for riding]

I used it for awhile, and although it "sort of" worked I got rid of it because it only seemed to amplify the sound of wind and other ambient outdoor noise, not people speaking. Actually made listening to people more difficult.

Were you using it with IEMs with lots of outside world attenuation? I found that the microphone had to be placed inside a pocket, but not too far inside my pocket. Wind is not really an issue because the mic is beneath 1 layer of Gore-Tex. I rigged up an elastic retainer that holds the microphone at exactly the right orientation and position in my pocket.

Couple the right location with the right volume level and I find that I get super-hearing. I can hear things from the lift that others can't, like weird bits of conversation between people way down on the slopes.

It's like that late night infomercial product. what was it called?

OOhhh, Whisper 2000!

[Headphones for riding]

Hey queequeg,

I see you're using the Shure PTH module. I've got one, too. It's a sweet little device.

For those wondering, the PTH (stands for "Push To Hear") is a little headphone add-on that lets you select between two audio sources: Your iPod, and an external microphone.

Essentially, you can have in-ear monitors (IEMs) that absolutely block out wind noise and the outside world, but flip the switch and you can hear everything through your microphone (and the iPod music still plays faintly in the background). It lets you have conversations on the lift and in liftlines, but still have the incredible fidelity of high-end IEMs.

I have an audio setup wired into my jacket. I'll take photos tonight and post.

[Riding moguls]

I know, put up or shut up. Ive got a free ticket for anyone that wants to come to Schwietzer and see for themselves.

I am working on getting someone to use my camera to prove that a snowboarder can rip bumps just as gracefully as a skier.

I didn't mean to be confrontational. I would just like to see this technique done. It sounds like something I'd like to try. ;)

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

Just curious why you think that a 165 is long for a freeride board? Seems to be on the short end to me for even the mass producing companies line-ups.

cheers.

I've always felt that for freeride boards, a longer one gets you 4 things:

1. More stability at high speed.

2. Better float in powder.

3. Less agility in the bumps because of increased swing weight.

4. A more painful ride up the lift, as that extra weight tugs on your front foot, knee, and ankle.

Remember this is only for freeride boards. Alpine has its own reasons for going longer.

I found that with my old T6 156, There was no need for more stability at high speed. I was nearly unable to overdrive that board when on edge. Yes, it wasn't well damped, so snow conditions limited my top speed more than anything else. With my JDub, I have not been able to scare myself at any speed. It gives tons of confidence and holds its edge extremely well.

They say that Magnetraction makes your edge more effective, so you don't need as long of a board to really lock into the snow. Therefore, point number 1 above has been trumped by stiffness, dampening, and Magnetraction. This is why I don't need a long board for high speed stability.

Just look at skiers who went from riding 210s a few years ago to riding 180 cm shaped skis. The technology allowed great stability with shorter skis. Magnetraction, in my opinion, is another leap in technology that allows even shorter equipment lengths to feel just as stable at speed as the long stuff.

Now, to point number 2 above. I just don't spend a ton of time in the powder. ...and the stamina I've built up from years of riding moguls has let me really lean on my back foot for float when I need to without tiring myself out. Speed helps float as well.

Points 3 and 4 are pretty much no brainers for me. I go as short as I can to minimize 3 and 4, while trying not to compromise at all on 1 and 2.

Sooooo, I don't feel that I need a long board because mine is really stable at speed, and I can handle the compromises in powder.

[Riding moguls]

I think some concepts got mixed up during the journey from my brain to yours... I think that "righting" ability has a lot to do with stiffness, and not much to do with length. At least, in my 170+ quiver it's the stiffness that counts. In the 150ish range, the length might be a factor, I wouldn't know.

Maybe our mixed concepts explains everything. I'm saying (because I've never ridden anything longer than a 156 in the bumps), that whenever I get near the back seat, it's over. You're saying there's a certain amount of "righting" ability from those situations. Maybe the "back seat point of no return" is relatively farther back on a long board than a shorty. This would make the longer boards more forgiving when it comes to back seat problems.

This thread has got me thinking that I should find a stiff 160 and see if it's any more or less fun in moguls.

Please do! And let me know how it feels. I can't as easily try a really long board as many of you can try a shorty.

[Riding moguls]

I did have a great day carving bumps on a 155 WC F2 asym.

Finally some corroboration of my "155-ish is not too shabby in the moguls" theory. :)

[Riding moguls]

You must get a pain in the neck as you've a long way to rotate your eyes to see the heel side line, no? How about the movement: what's moving where to do that?

My hips stay pretty much in line with the board. They're twisted maybe 10° towards the nose of the board. My shoulders sit at about 45°, which feels fairly natural. My head is turned maybe 35°, so it's pointed straight down the fall line. It certainly doesn't hurt my neck, and there's only a very minimal intrusion of my shoulder into my field of view.

Winter Park bumps are pretty good quality from what I remember.

Yep, Jane has excellent bumps serviced by the Challenger lift.

My wife and I spend entire days hitting bump run after bump run. We're definitely worn out at the end of the day. But, like many have said, the better your mogul technique, the less energy it takes to ride them.

I'm going to try my floppy Gnu 160 this weekend on the bumps since that's the longest board I own. I'm interested in trying something even longer, but I don't see how that'll happen unless it's a full alpine hardboot setup. I'm just not going to buy a 170+ freeride board.

[Riding moguls]

I'd love to see you do it in any sort of serious bumps. I'm not saying it can't be done but I have yet to see anybody on skis or a board carve through a steep field of big bumps.

+1 I'd also like to see this. Maybe not even on a really steep section. Just some that are nice and rutted out, with undercut backsides.

[Any tips to keep your edges from rusting?]

Now that's a solution, queequeg.

[Any tips to keep your edges from rusting?]

I am guessing this is for winter and not for storage?

I plan to use vaseline. I think ppl just leave wax on the edge for storage and it works well.

As long as we keep oxygen out; it shouldn't rust.

--

David

Are you sure that petroleum products aren't seeping into the porous structure of the P-tex and affecting wax absorption. The P-tex next to the edge seems especially vulnerable because it's the most abused, and tends to get the wax sucked out of it so quickly. I don't know if it'll harm the base, but I wouldn't do it to my boards until I found out for sure.

I'd rather have a rusty edge (that I can clean off quickly with a gummi stone) than a base that won't absorb wax.

[Any tips to keep your edges from rusting?]

Ti for edges maybe not such a good idea. SS could be intresting but it is probibly too brittle.

How about a ipe down with some minerial oil? On sail boats they als just leave a low wattage light bulb on in the enclosed area to keep it warm enough to avoid the condensation, west marine has cool trays that hold the water from desicant.

dehumidifiers are basicly small a/c units so...

for longer term storage if you can compleatly cover the edges with wax then there will be little rust forming.

My old T6 has stainless edges. There are many, many alloys that are still called stainless steel, with widely varying properties. Burton seems to have found an alloy that is easy to tune, not brittle, and never rusts. I don't know why more manufacturers don't do this.

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

Tanker is a big board isn't it? I'm looking for something at 165, that's my perfect size. I've heard a lot of good thing about the steepwater, would like to try one some day.

Is there a specific reason why you want such a long freeride board? What kind of riding do you do?

[Best freeride board for bumpy snow?]

Are you riding it with hardboots? It might be the boots and bindings instead of the board.I found I had to go back to soft boots to enjoy riding choppy snow again. Even with a soft flexing board DuprazD1 I was getting a rough ride with flexible bail bindings and bts on the boots.

The harshness is definitely from the T6. The T6 has a hybrid core of wood and aluminum honeycomb. It's wicked stiff (at least for a freeride board) and has almost zero damping.