Deeluxe Boot Forward Lean, and BTS for racing.

[NSSage]

Okay so I have a question about forward lean on boots. I have just kept mine the way they came and they feel fine. What are the effects of increasing the lean or decreasing it? What lean setting do you ride at? And does the BTS system offer any benefits for the racer (I would think that a locked and stiffer boot would be better for racing but last year at nationals I saw lots of guys using the BTS)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

It is all about adjustment options. The "BOOT TUNING SYSTEM" allows you to decided how you want to tune your boot flex.

You can fine tune the forward lean and flex. You can adjust the RANGE of motion etc. Lots of options for a little over 100$.

Are the guys using them doing better than you in the races :) Perhaps ask them about their experience with them? Probably a higher percentage of racers at

the races than here :)

http://bomberonline.3dcartstores.com/BTS-kit_p_106.html

Edited January 23, 2013 by www.oldsnowboards.com

[Beckmann AG]

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Generally speaking;

Too much forward lean, particularly on the front boot, and you smoke your quadriceps group for no net gain. Too little, and you lose lateral ROM at the knee (by way of the hip and ankle).

Among other things.

Establish a baseline by standing relaxed with both feet side by side, set forward lean such that the boot cuffs support a comfortable minimum of joint flexion. (As though you will be standing there for a few hours and have nothing to lean on, including the boot tongues).

Then adjust as your preferred 'technique' requires.

Make a few 'easy'* turns with the forward lean adjuster unlocked on the rear boot. If the additional flex suits your tastes, install a BTS to that boot.

*Easy meaning outside of a course on a smooth, consistent surface for the sole purpose of comparison.

[kmartshopper]

I've wondered about this myself. I see all these pictures of good carvers (the upright torso, not laid out style of carving) and they are often really crouched down. I don't understand how their boots could be anywhere but in the max lean setting. I have 6deg lift in the back and my boot in max lean, and ride flat in front - one setting from max lean... and I see pics of myself and it still looks like I'm standing around at the bus stop. I can see what Beckman is saying about smoking quads, but I just can't imagine how to flex boots from a more upright position into that low powerful position. Maybe I'm just not aggressive enough or I'm not bending the board enough - even with squishy old SB324's. Seems like I'm missing something.

[KingCrimson]

I think the Northwave spring system works well for racing because the ankle pivot is actually where it belongs.

I don't personally like BTS, I think it gave a wonky feel to my AF shells because the movement was a hybrid of the boot puffing out in the ankle (is anyone here on their original set of canting "moons"? I know I lost a few before replacing them with bolts), the tongue bellows compressing, and the BTS action in the pivot. It was a mushy awful feel, but not in the sense that they were too soft. I know one of the Steamboat coaches had replaced his springs with elastomers, which in hindsight were probably stacked skateboard bushings. I also have a stupid, poppy way of riding most of the time and rely way too much on pressuring the boots instead of subtle controlled movements derived from the soles of my feet. I couldn't ride softboots to save my life until yesterday when I figured that one out the hard way.

I've ridden in Rossignol race boots which are SCARY low volume, with carbon inserts and crap like that and they actually work pretty well despite the lack of forward lean and flex. I rode them with Sidewinders with blues all around on a too-stiff old school WCR. I think as long as your knees are stacked well over your board and you're facing the bindings it's a very serviceable setup. I rode it in a GS and a Super G and had a few very clean, screaming runs.

Generally I'm really not a good racer at all..For whatever reason I lock up and suck in the course. As far as freecarving, i'd like to think I'm aggressive and use fairly decent race technique. I think I'm better suited to being a coach hahaha.

Next time I'm in San Diego I'll take the BTS off my old boots and mail em to you or next time you're up here you can pick them up from me and try them. If you like them, I'll sell them to you as long as you give me your old 5-positions so I can sell the boots.

Edited January 23, 2013 by KingCrimson

[NSSage]

Thanks, that is why I have never tried the BTS I am afraid it will make my boots feel mushy like I'm riding in walk mode. Nice I have only rode in ski boots once but they were uber stiff atomic race boots and I just could not deal with them. haha gates used to make me nervous but now that I am training with the ski team I am getting more comfortable in them.

That sounds good, I am trying to come to mammoth in 2 weeks I think so maybe then I can try the BTS out

[KingCrimson]

Im working 40+ hour weeks and its hard to get time off..i won't be down to san Diego before then.

[Beckmann AG]

I think the Northwave spring system works well for racing because the ankle pivot is actually where it belongs.

Insightful. If only more boot Techniker's would reach the same conclusion.

I know one of the Steamboat coaches had replaced his springs with elastomers...

As with early mountain bike forks, this works Ok until the weather gets cold.

I also have a stupid, poppy way of riding most of the time and rely way too much on pressuring the boots instead of subtle controlled movements derived from the soles of my feet.

This ^, and this:

...not a good racer at all..For whatever reason I lock up and suck in the course. As far as freecarving, i'd like to think I'm aggressive and use fairly decent race technique.

Are closely related. As you well know, racing is very much a distance/rate/time scenario. If you are not actuating your board with your feet, you are either athletically gifted and prospering, or you are fairly normal and struggling.

Pursue your softbooting epiphany, and see where it takes you.

And lest you think other wise: No, I am not picking on you.

I see all these pictures of good carvers (the upright torso, not laid out style of carving) and they are often really crouched down. I don't understand how their boots could be anywhere but in the max lean setting.

So are they 'good' because they are crouched down, are they crouched down because they are 'good', or is your perception affecting your observations?

E.g., forward lean can be independent of forward flex. The riders you cite may stand upright on two feet while at rest, and down on all fours while 'at work'.

Something else to consider is the number of questions directed toward shin bang, heel spurs, and other maladies. While too little forward lean can be detrimental to one's riding, too much can be injurious to the rider.

You are dealing with a mechanical system after all, and most systems do have limitations.

My earlier post was simply to suggest that as a start point, one should be able to stand comfortably with the center of the knee joint more or less over the middle of the foot. (As viewed from the side).

What goes on beyond that point is up to the end user.

...I'm aggressive...[/quote

Aggression is one thing, accuracy another. Do you want to power yourself up to move your board, or power up your board to move yourself?

[kmartshopper]

So are they 'good' because they are crouched down, are they crouched down because they are 'good', or is your perception affecting your observations?

It's pretty uneducated empirical assessment of numerous random sources. This help page is probably the best single example:

bomber-toeside-tips

While the more casual upright 'group B' towards the end of the doc are doing it right and may have more upright boots, the "crank up the volume" group at the end seems to have some real acute boot lean/flex angles (especially rear).

E.g., forward lean can be independent of forward flex. The riders you cite may stand upright on two feet while at rest, and down on all fours while 'at work'.

Are you saying that much of this could indeed be flex - boot, board... rather than forward lean? And maybe it is just level of aggression (ie. lazy riders don't flex boots much).

Something else to consider is the number of questions directed toward shin bang, heel spurs, and other maladies. While too little forward lean can be detrimental to one's riding, too much can be injurious to the rider.

This is what's driving my interest and constant fiddling with this particular topic. My literal and figurative achilles heel is on my rear foot, and suffers somewhat at higher lean.

Aggression is one thing, accuracy another. Do you want to power yourself up to move your board, or power up your board to move yourself?

Back to those pictures in the link I posted... based on body position and snow spewing energy, that riders in the final 'crank up the volume' group are being more aggressive. That is putting more effort and dynamic forces into the process, rather than just casually floating around the mountain. As for me, I want to get my board up on angle to carve tight turns on steeper hardpack without getting bucked by every blip in the terrain. The rare times I do get a turn or two in like this, I feel that it's when I've been more aggressive - diving into the turn and crouching so my hand is at my boot. And that is where I find my self with heavy boot lean because I can't use upright lean settings and get down that low.

[Ian M]

Very interesting points so far everyone, but what about edge angle? Don't you find that using more forward lean on the boot and therefore a lower riding position makes it easier to achieve higher edge angles?

To NSSage: boot stiffness and forward lean are both very personal. That being said, my feeling is that my stock Deeluxe boots (what are yours?) were way too stiff when using the factory 'locked in position' forward lean adjusters. I'm a fan of the BTS, and like that I have more up/down range of motion while riding because of them. Tall and lazy for a few turns? Sure. Low and cranking aggressive arcs? Done.

[NSSage]

Very interesting points so far everyone, but what about edge angle? Don't you find that using more forward lean on the boot and therefore a lower riding position makes it easier to achieve higher edge angles?

To NSSage: boot stiffness and forward lean are both very personal. That being said, my feeling is that my stock Deeluxe boots (what are yours?) were way too stiff when using the factory 'locked in position' forward lean adjusters. I'm a fan of the BTS, and like that I have more up/down range of motion while riding because of them. Tall and lazy for a few turns? Sure. Low and cranking aggressive arcs? Done.

I am riding in the Deeluxe track 225 and I weigh ~130 lb. I would like to try them soon with some of the stiffer springs because I don't like my boots to feel mushy But if I could have just a little more movement I think I would enjoy it

[Ian M]

Yup, that sounds like a good idea. I'm 165lbs and 6'2", and can't flex the 325s much without BTS. I'm on the blues now, but need to tighten the springs up a bit. Adjustability is fun!

[Beckmann AG]

Let's see how this cut 'n paste works out...

Originally Posted by Beckmann AGSo are they 'good' because they are crouched down, are they crouched down because they are 'good', or is your perception affecting your observations?

----

It's pretty uneducated empirical assessment of numerous random sources. This help page is probably the best single example:

bomber-toeside-tips

While the more casual upright 'group B' towards the end of the doc are doing it right and may have more upright boots, the "crank up the volume" group at the end seems to have some real acute boot lean/flex angles (especially rear).

Beauty is in the eye of the shareholder. One of the many drawbacks to 'visual learning' is that which is easiest to see is not necessarily that which you want, or need, to emulate. One ascribes meaning to what one sees based on any number of things, and that meaning then guides our subsequent actions.

While you identify one group as being more proficient than the other, can you fully determine that the 'degree' of boot flex is a means, and not a byproduct of another series of movements?

Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

E.g., forward lean can be independent of forward flex. The riders you cite may stand upright on two feet while at rest, and down on all fours while 'at work'.

-----

Are you saying that much of this could indeed be flex - boot, board... rather than forward lean? And maybe it is just level of aggression (ie. lazy riders don't flex boots much).

What I am saying, is that the forward lean you see may be transient and relevant only to that particular moment in the turn when the photo was taken. Similarly, the boots could have very little forward lean 'at rest' but then have enough flex to fully collapse under the load experienced near the bottom of the typical turn.

(Also, a veiled reference to 'The Island of Dr. Moreau').

'Lazy' riders may flex their boots more than 'aggressive' riders. To establish those two as an either/or is a bit of a mistake. Seemingly 'lazy' bicycle racers may in fact win out over those with more 'aggressive' tendencies, as they pick and choose their moments of exertion to greater effect. In which case, the title of 'lazy' must needs become 'smart'.

Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

Something else to consider is the number of questions directed toward shin bang, heel spurs, and other maladies. While too little forward lean can be detrimental to one's riding, too much can be injurious to the rider.

----

This is what's driving my interest and constant fiddling with this particular topic. My literal and figurative achilles heel is on my rear foot, and suffers somewhat at higher lean.

Right. So look at it from this perspective: Your hardshells are levers. It's your choice as to whether you use those levers as a means of activation, or as a means of maintenance. As KC mentioned in his last post, he realized a difference in his riding when he moved away from the former, and worked the latter. Too many enthusiasts, whether alpine, telemark, or hardboot, lean excessively on their boots. Their feet, and their 'riding' often suffer as a result. Your ankle joint has only so many degrees of dorsiflexion. Exceed that limit at your own peril.

Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

Aggression is one thing, accuracy another. Do you want to power yourself up to move your board, or power up your board to move yourself?

----

Back to those pictures in the link I posted... based on body position and snow spewing energy, that riders in the final 'crank up the volume' group are being more aggressive. That is putting more effort and dynamic forces into the process, rather than just casually floating around the mountain. As for me, I want to get my board up on angle to carve tight turns on steeper hardpack without getting bucked by every blip in the terrain. The rare times I do get a turn or two in like this, I feel that it's when I've been more aggressive - diving into the turn and crouching so my hand is at my boot. And that is where I find my self with heavy boot lean because I can't use upright lean settings and get down that low.

Again, it is more than possible to get a lot out of one's board without relying on 'aggression' or heavy flexion. Increased effort will often yield lesser, rather than greater, results.

When you have been more 'aggressive' it is entirely possible that you are more directed, and have simply affected the timing of your movements more so than the magnitude, and you improve your 'energy capture ratio' for a given arc length. Thus the turn has more snap, etc. On the other hand, your exaggerated posture may generate a higher tilt of the board, simultaneous with your 'pouncing' on the turn. And again, snap.

To paraphrase and earlier question, do you want to make subtle movements that create pressure, or do you want to generate pressure as a means of creating movement?

Given the tender condition of your rear heel, I would suggest the former over the latter.

[Beckmann AG]

...but what about edge angle? Don't you find that using more forward lean on the boot and therefore a lower riding position makes it easier to achieve higher edge angles?

A lowered posture makes one less 'tippy', increasing the odds of recovering from an edging mistake, thus allowing for greater exploration in that area. This, at the expense of increased muscle/joint tension.

Best and highest use of leg flexion/extension is as an effective suspension system. As I'm sure you know, there are what, four distinct means of affecting edge angle? Of the four, two are clearly reliant on knee articulation and two are not.

[NSSage]

Yup, that sounds like a good idea. I'm 165lbs and 6'2", and can't flex the 325s much without BTS. I'm on the blues now, but need to tighten the springs up a bit. Adjustability is fun!

Cool maybe I can try it out soon and see if I like it because its pretty hard to flex my boots

[KingCrimson]

Sage message me your address on Facebook. I asked my dad to pull the BTS off my boots.