Safety at the X-Session!

[Guest Jim Pryor]

Yesterday I was riding at my local hill (Bear Mt.) I was on top of a nice piste and looked up and saw no one. I rode about 25yrds. and went into a heelside and wham! A 23 yr. old boarder hit me so hard I saw stars. Witnesses said they have never seen anyone hit so hard before. They said he was straightlining this semi flat area and got air over the roller and when I did the heelside, wham! Ski patrol took me down and I was pretty shaken up but could walk. Went and got x-rays, negative. I am just going to be real sore for a couple weeks. There is nothing worse than being injured or injuring a fellow rider. A lot of Alpine riders will be in Aspen foaming at the mouth to show their stuff. Please 1. Leave your ego at the parking lot. 2. Stretch and limber up before riding. 3. Check the snow conditions. 4. Know your limits and stay within them. 5. LEAVE PLENTY OF SPACE BETWEEN YOU AND THE DOWNHILL RIDER!!! 6. Do not "buzz" another rider. 7. Respect other riders styles and equipment choices. 8. Have fun and make new friends. jp

[Baka Dasai]

So what happened to the other guy? Was he injured? Did the ski patrol clip his ticket or take some other action?

Or were you, dazed and injured, in no position to know?

[AaronG]

Jim, sorry to read about your collision. I'm glad nothing serious happened besides being a bit sore. My advise to you, as you drive down Big Bear Blvd, turn right at Summit Blvd which will take you to Snow Summit, if you reach Moonridge, you have gone way too far East. Let Bear Mtn, have all the soft booters and let them rip on their terrain features.

BTW, I went to Summit on Saturday night to take a friend carving, my buddy used to ride a snowboard 10 years ago but he got into road cycling big time and gave up snowboarding completely. He always wanted to try carving so I set him up with some of my older stuff and he did well. Snow quality was, most excellent! Not too many "terrain features" on the runs that were open and once the day skiers left, nbody was on the groomers. "Twas a good night for carving. Heading to Mammoth on Thursday, will be back Thusday night, will let you know how it was.

[gdboytyler]

I was at Snow Summit during the day shift on Saturday. The snow conditions were excellent. Oldvolvosrule was not exaggerating.

I think I was the only carver on mountain during the day. I was surprised at how empty the runs were.

I saw an incident very similar to Jim Pryor's last season at Summit. A twenty something male boarder was straightlining, aired over a roller and clipped a female boarder that was stopped in the middle of the run. Luckily, no one needed the ski patrol sled.

I ended up riding the chair later on with the twenty something male boarder and lectured him on having his buddy spot his landings. It didn't help though, I saw the guys air a different roller 20 minutes later with no one spotting the landing.

The stupid stuff is not confined to Bear Mtn.

[cliffh]

clipped a female boarder that was stopped in the middle of the run

What is with these morons that stop in the MIDDLE of a run? Especially if your below a roller where anyone coming down the hill can't see you? Why is it so difficult for people to pull off on the edge off the trail in view from above. I'll tell you why - they don't have a clue! These are the same morons doing 60 in the left lane until their exit in their sheit head utility vehicles with the damn TV's on. Nothing is scarier then ripping over a roller only to see someone standing/sitting in your line.

rant over.

[D-Sub]

gotta say I agree 100%. stopping in the middle of the run is just plain asking for big trouble.

I see people do it ALL the time. fact is, it is a lack of forethough and consideration that Id be willing to guess translates to their behavior off hill as well.

the first incident though...just horrible timing. fact is we;re supposed to look BELOW us when we're riding. its much easier to see downhill than up!

[Guest AlpentalRider]

Anybody who stops in a location which masks them from riders above (i.e. backside of a roller/kicker/etc) should be thoroughly pummelled. It's equivelent to stopping your car on the backside of a curve because you have a flat tire.

I broke my wrist several years ago because of a moron and his buddy in the backcountry who decided to park their lazy asses right beneath a roller. By the time I could see them there, I was only a few meters away and had to bail to avoid hitting them. I hit a tree instead and put my hands up in time to bounce off of it only breaking my wrist and getting a slight concussion. It could have ended up ALOT worse.

Whenever you stop on a hill, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure you are in plain view to all others approaching from above.

[Guest Jim Pryor]

Thanks for replying to my post guys. Yea I still feel like I got run over by a truck but body is healing fast. You know I feel violated and just plain furious at this clueless moron. I got all of his info and four other guys made sure he didn't bolt. The thing that pissed me off is he was amping to get back out on the hill and ride. If the situation was reversed I would of stayed with the guy and asked questions like "are you going to see a doctor" "are you going to miss work on account of this" ect. ect. but this guy has the Orange County headspace that I was just a terrain feature in the wrong place. By the way Saturday was some of the best riding at Bear. The snow had that hero quality to it!! Thanks again for your concern. jp

[Tim Kienitz]

Jim,

Sorry to hear about your collision but glad you are OK. Yes there are a lot of clueless riders out there and being careful some times is not enough. No matter how much you educate them, some will never change. Maybe if the patrollers that took you down took the guys lift ticket, he might have gotten the message. Good to hear you can still ride though and see you at the June Jam 05.

Tim K

[Ray]

Jim,

Man, I wish you a fast recovery. Hope you can hit the slopes soon again. All the best!

Ray

[Guest thomas_m]

What if you fall hitting that same roller and are in the process of getting up? You should never overdrive your brakes so your car analogy doesn't hold.

T.

Originally posted by AlpentalRider

Anybody who stops in a location which masks them from riders above (i.e. backside of a roller/kicker/etc) should be thoroughly pummelled. It's equivelent to stopping your car on the backside of a curve because you have a flat tire.

I broke my wrist several years ago because of a moron and his buddy in the backcountry who decided to park their lazy asses right beneath a roller. By the time I could see them there, I was only a few meters away and had to bail to avoid hitting them. I hit a tree instead and put my hands up in time to bounce off of it only breaking my wrist and getting a slight concussion. It could have ended up ALOT worse.

Whenever you stop on a hill, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure you are in plain view to all others approaching from above.

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by thomas_m

What if you fall hitting that same roller and are in the process of getting up?

If you fall in a place where you can't be seen from above, you should make every effort to move to a safer place ASAP. If you are making every effort and still get hit, well, it's a genuine accident and I'd say nobody is at fault.

I reckon the mountain rules should be enforced fairly strictly, but even if everybody follows them to the letter there will still be situations where sh1t happens and people get hurt.

In other words, following the rules minimises, but doesn't eliminate, risk.

[reweston]

Another idea:

Don't charge over blind rollers at a speed that would cause you to slam into some object on the other side unless you have a spotter.

[Brian]

Jim

Really sorry to hear about the crash. I got hurt on this mt. under similar circumstances, decided not to ride this resort again due to crowds and lack of open runs for carving.

Wish you a quick recovery and looking forward riding with you at June Jam. aloha

B

[philfell]

All this talk of spotters and hitting rollers. How many people here actually use spotters when out railing turns? I know I don't stop at every roller on the hill, that's the best part of the runs. When it goes from a flat to a pitch. I'm not talking about airing just riding non-stop onto a pitch and making turns the whole way. Be honest with yourselves, do you use a spotter at every knoll, or slow down for every blind rollover?

Just as the responsibility code states that the down hill skier has the right of way, it also states that you must stop where you can be visible from above.

[Guest thomas_m]

If we're talking about carving, I agree with you since you have some ability to manuever. However, this thread was about a guy catching air over a blind roller, not carving.

Just like the previous analogy, even though it's stupid to stop a car around the far side of a curve sometimes it happens - out of gas with no shoulder, flat tire, fall on a snowboard. You go around that corner outside of your ability to brake and nail them, who's lawyer do you think is going to have the most fun, yours or theirs.

My nine year old daughter fell on the far side of a roller on a green run. As she was getting up a highschool kid straightlining the run aired the same roller and nailed her directly in the back. At first I thought he had broken her neck but she was just stunned with the air knocked out of her. If it had been your daughter would you or Baka have thought "oh well, no fault there"? What if it had been your daughter and she ended up with a broken neck/back and paralyzed.

No excuse for not being in control on a groomed run.

YMMV,

T.

[reweston]

I agree Thomas. You can still have fun and be in control. You don't have to make every run a mach 4 mission. Carving should be a controlled art anyway, and that would include being aware of a potential collision with another person. If you are flying over a blind spot at a speed that would not allow you to avoid something (debris/rock/human) in front of you, then yer doin' it wrong! We're not talkin' bumper cars, we're talking potential serious injuries! Hospitals! Blood! Broken Bones! The collision I witnessed last week was HORRIFIC, and hope to never see anything like it again. And yes, I always travel at a speed that allows ample time to avoid anything in front of me. Do I ride slow? Hell no! Just smart. If you're on a wide open groomer, midweek, and you can't see a soul anywhere, that's when you fly top speed. Any blind corner/roller deserves a speed to accomodate avoiding danger. Look at it this way....sure, the code states that you shouldn't stop where you can't be seen from above, and you/we can accomodate that rule, but can you count on everyone else doing it? Never.

Robert

PS: Since I'm preachin', as a pharmacist I have to warn yall about the advil thing. I know many people, mostly athletes, who relied on it for years to get through their session of choice every day, and am now dispensing meds to help their ulcers, and even worse, kidneys. If your going to take it all the time, take it with food, don't take it with aleeve (naproxen) and take it easy on the dose. No more than 800mg 3 times daily TOPS. Preferably far less than that, and factor in your booze intake, that's rough on those kidneys too. OK, I'm done now, consider yourself pharmaceutically counselled :D

[reweston]

Forgot 1 thing......glad your daughter is OK Thomas :p

[philfell]

I'm not placing fault or blame, I'm just saying it takes two to tango. And I'm asking a question.

As far as out of control people go, I have no tolerance for it. People who are truly out of control have no place on the ski area, nor do people who put themselves in dangerous situations.

When I was a snowboard instructor I used to tell my students a joke, based mostly on truth. I would tell them that "the beginner trail is the most dangerous trail on the mountain. Everone there is at the same ability as they are, which isn't very good right now. Don't expect anyone to be able to avoid them because chances are that the person heading towards them can't turn. Always be aware on what's going on around them."

As far as lawyers haveing fun, you can't get what I don't have. Unless the person suing me likes race equipment they are going to be dissapointed no matter what the outcome.

In all seriousness, there is a time to rip turns from top to bottom and a time to slow things down. On a green run, where you have people learning, and going slow this isn't the place to do it. On a steep groomed run these call out to be ridden hard.

The use of spotters is a good theroy, but out on the actual slopes how many people practics this when out carving? I know this thread was started because of someone catching air off a roller, but the same result can happen if someone comes over the same roller doing a EC carve.

As far as "no excuses for not being in control on a groomed run". Most snowboarder their first day out have little to no control and they are on groomed trails, it's not really their fault they are still learning to sideslip.

[Guest AlpentalRider]

Originally posted by thomas_m

What if you fall hitting that same roller and are in the process of getting up? You should never overdrive your brakes so your car analogy doesn't hold.

T.

My analogy holds up very well. If you were to fall right at the backside of the knoll, and are in the process of getting up, then it's safe to say that I wasn't that far behind you therefore I should leave enough room between us to anticipate that you could have fallen.

What I'm talking about are people who park their asses behind these things in the middle of the run for several minutes. And it doesn't take someone going fast to not have enough time to avoid them. On alot of the knolls I come across, you have no visibility on the backside of them until you are literally a half a turn away.

In my backcountry incident, the ONLY way I would have had plenty of reaction time on that roller is if I had been sideslipping slowly to peek what was beyond the roller. I'm sorry but I'm not going to ride the backcountry sideslipping down the whole way in case some idiot parks his fat ass behind a roller. He is to blame for putting himself in that position.

And if I'm coming around a blind corner doing the speed limit and strike a vehicle who has stopped where they can't be seen and has done nothing to put warning signs out, his insurance will be picking up the bill. Ask any cop who he will cite on that one, i've seen it happen.

All in all I think our two examples are different. I do agree that people need to be in control and look out for others when they ride. But you must also acknowledge that it doesn't give people the freedom to put themselves in dangerous positions and point the finger when they cause an accident. Trying to get back up from a fall and purposely parking in an obstructed fashion in the middle of a run are two totally different things.

[reweston]

Point taken. I would say that backcountry is another set of rules. If someone is stupid enough to park it in a landing area in the backcountry, then, they're just voluntary target practice I guess. I would say the more conservative stuff mentioned previously is reserved for the groomers.

[Guest thomas_m]

I pretty much agree with everything Phill posted.

However...

...say you're on a familiar black diamond and some guy in a day-glo rompersuit is over a blind knoll, stopped talking to his stockbroker and smoking a cigarette. He's stopped exactly where only an inconsiderate idiot would be stopped and probably doesn't give a damn because he is an inconsiderate idiot after all.

So you come zipping down the run just like you've done a jillion times before. No one has been in front of you since it's tuesday AM and you bust an air doing 30 miles an hour and see him about .005sec before impact. Of course you catch him with your edge and completely decapitate him because you are on your newly tuned bbaM. So is it 'OK' that you killed this guy and orphaned his children because he was an a$$hole kook and obviously stopped where he shouldn't be?

Or say it was a woman telemarker who happened to stop exactly where she shouldn't because she bit off more than she could chew and was gripped over the rest of the run. You were on your shiity old Burton rockboard so you only break her pelvis so she'll be in a body cast for 3 months. Is that OK? After all, she was in the wrong spot and should never have stopped in a blind section.

I'm only speaking for me here. But seriously hurting someone else because I was trying to have fun isn't something I would handle very well even if I was totally in the right. So, I have a litle less fun and slow down for blind spots. I pretty much suck at snowboarding anyway so it isn't much of an issue. Maybe if I was a rippah like ya'll, it'd be a little more important to me. Or maybe not.

T.

[Guest Jim Pryor]

Woke up early today and went for the Tiger Balm instead of my first cup of joe. Well the back is feeling better, THANK GOD!! I agree with philfell about riding and spotters. Most of us know the runs we are on and one of the coolest things we do is G.S. air over a roller. But if the piste is super steep over that roller I will ask a friend to spot for me cause the speeds just get to great. Then we get into what Thomas is talking about,(no excuse for not riding in control) At those speeds I couldn't turn or stop if someone was sitting there having a "tea Party". My God every day I have to tell people not to sit in a certain area. And I hear other people saying it too. Rewesten was right on about his take on this. I had the pleasure a few years back at Heavenly to be taken in the backcountry and our group literally ran into what Alpentalrider was talking about. Two guys kicking back on the run chute having a toke. My host had to crash to avoid these guys! Luckily no-one was hurt. Anyway thanks again for the feedback and get wells. I will be riding next week and for sure be ready to rock at the June Jam. jp

[philfell]

Causing someone an injury in never an OK thing, but people have to take responsibility for their own actions. When I'm out riding I feel I have enough control over my abilities that if I come over a blind knoll and someone is in my line I know I can avoid causing them major injury. It might be a close call but if will miss them. That just goes for me and my riding style though.

AlpentalRider is on the money with this one. To steal his anology about stopping a car around a blind corner. Say you were the one driving the car that came around the blind corner and killed the person trying to change the tire. It's not "OK" that you killed them, but on the other hand you can't really blam youself. You shouldn't spend you life telling youself if only I were going slower eventhough I was going the speed limit, if only I were in the other lane......... Unfortunate things happen we all should do our best to avoid them, but we can't life our lifes protecting the idiots from themselves.