[Stance Width vs Perception of Board Stiffness]

59 minutes ago, fluxgame said:

If I'm understanding correctly, I think I do this on medium terrain, but it isn't something that's within my confidence level on steep stuff. Also, doesn't fit with my goal for clean carves.

The back foot pivot isn’t like the front foot version. 
When you do it on your front foot, the tail does go out wider and takes a different path. 
A pivot on the tail does not break the carve, happening as you’re carving from the back foot to the tail and lifting the front foot to a higher line. The track you leave in the snow would not show anything less than a carve. 
 You can also do this as a centre pivot between the feet at the edge change as the board goes flat, to lose speed or make a quicker edge change. As this largely happens in the flat phase, like the tail pivot, you would not be able to see anything other than a carved track. 
These are hard to do, hard to spot, but very effective at tightening a turn without relying on bending of the board at the centre of the turn via edge angle, or the type of more centre-of-the-board pressure a narrow stance allows. 

[Stance Width vs Perception of Board Stiffness]

Have you narrowed your stance at anytime to confirm your feelings?

You’d be right in thinking the way you do, but there are techniques that wide stance carvers can use to make up for diminished bend in the board. 

With pressure easier to manipulate between the feet, you can ollie into the new turn to change edges and tip the board over aggressively early in the turn. A mellower version of leaving the ground to go from turn to turn would be pivoting on your back foot to close the turn and change edges. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:23 PM, nicholaswmin said:

How does a racer tackle this?

Literally from your first post, you asked about racing. 

People answer with freecarve advice and you remind us that it’s about racing. 

So it’s moved to the Racing forum. 

You then say it’s not about racing. 

Then you post James’ video of him at a moderate pace, with a quick switch and generating early edge angle well above the fall line, but taking the whole runs width on perfect RMR groomers to say he doesn’t pivot, or drift, or do anything other than perfect carves. 
 

News flash: That’s how you do that, but you seem to know. 
 

Like your coach who you’ve broken up with, maybe we’re being trolled too. 
 

Now I’m done. 
 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

Is there any use of drifting if there's no race and no gates?

This one and then I’m done. 

“Yes”.                                          If you need to ask why, go out to your steepest black run and freecarve without sliding some portion of one of your turns.

When you get out of the hospital, ask that question again, but rhetorically. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:16 AM, nicholaswmin said:

This is for race training, I was a bit late in tagging the topic as such.

 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

16 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

 

 

That "skivoting" just sounds so similar to the "drifting"  

Same same. 
 

Unlike what the video says, BK is initiating the drift with countering… if he wants to start one on the heels, the back hand goes back. If it’s a toe turn, the back hand comes forward. In either case, he’s creating momentum with a large appendage so he has something to act against and “move his back foot”. 

 I’d also say that you can practice drifting above the fall line and then gradually engaging the edge at anything from a slow pace and right up to race pace. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

10 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Now that's for certain.

“Asking too soon” is unfair. 
You ask when you want to. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

If you want to look it up in the ski world, you’d search “stivoting”. Steer / pivot. 

Before the skiers picked it up, we called it “Skivoting”, or skid / pivot. Really, it was just a tactic in our “Slarving” conversations at CASI where we’d be looking to do things that would allow the most carving while also riding steep slopes, knowing that pure carving would only make you die  

Doesn’t matter… Same same. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

7 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Err, what's the element that's missing?

The course is not steep or is the sequence in the video missing a step you suggested earlier? If it's missing something, what is it? I posted that video to confirm if that's the sequence you describe. You mean it's missing a step because the course isn't steep?

Look, it looks like what you and @noschoolrider are suggesting diverges a bit. Or at least that's my understanding this far. I also understand that both of you are race coaches so it's a jackpot chance to squeeze some info out of you. 

But first and foremost I have to clarify the exact sequence of steps that each of you is suggesting. If a reply leaves room for me misinterpreting something, I'm gonna have to engage in an additional back/forth to make sure I got your intended and exact meaning.

Also, that "skivot" thing is the skidding while on edge that racers do to correct their trajectory and get on a better line? If that's what you mean by "skivot", let's assume our hypothetical rider has calculated his line perfectly and doesn't need corrections, and leave that "skivot" out of the picture as it's confusing me.

----

Now to the point:

Right, how do I apply pressure though? Up until this point I thought it was a leg extension, @Rob Stevens has me feeling differently. What does "apply pressure" mean here?  The only pressure I know, is the pressure that happens at the bottom-half of a cross-over turn that i need to absorb to avoid edge chattering. That pressure happens, I don't apply it. So what does "apply" mean if not a leg extension?

The above suggests cranking a high-edge angle happens immediately after I switch edge, at the top of the turn, so the timing is clear.

But this:

"I have to build edge angle" is missing the timing.

When should I be maxed out on edge angle?  Also at the top of the turn?

And where's the "apply pressure" step here? 

Granted, you might be suggesting different steps that both work. But it's not entirely clear to me if they are actually different or just me misinterpreting them. And eventually, i don't want to blindly repeat steps, this is a stepping stone to me understanding the mechanics of why the techniques suggested, actually work.

Your original question centred on altering the radius of your turn on steep slopes. While that video does show solid form and is a mirror of what you’d ideally want to do, it is missing the “skivot” part.
 If you were to try what the racer in the video is doing on a steep pitch, you wouldn’t get far. 

Any course that can be purely carved is not a “steep” one, unless it’s so open as to not be a snowboard race. Not since single SG races went away. 

You said you wanted to leave “skivot”’s aside as the concept is confusing you… your present confusion doesn’t matter. You’ll have to figure it out. Your other option is to try to rail every course you come across and never finish one. 

 At the risk of creating further confusion, you’ll…

- Be rising up towards the edge change phase. The board will be loaded here and when you top out, the pressure will release and you will use it to bring the board up and under you, establishing the platform you’ll move to the next turn from.

- In the video you posted, the rider begins to drop his hips towards the platform, creating simultaneous but gradual edge angle towards to fall line. He is on a pure, carved edge. 
 This is the important part… if you do it like this on a steep hill, you will immediately accelerate, get “late” and blow out two gates later.

- Knowing that you’d rather finish than blow out, instead of lowering yourself and engaging a railed edge above the fall line, you will take a moment and stay in your extended position, prolonging the “floating” part of the turn. While there and with a bare minimum of edge, you will either pivot on the nose or between the feet. I like to do it by slightly counter rotating. As before, the situation may call for rotation, so you should know how to start a slide using either.

- In engaging this slide, you can maintain or reduce speed while also aiming the nose of your board into the fall line sooner than you could if you went right to your edge, made a rounder turn, taking “the long way”.

- Once your board is aimed either into the fall line or more towards the next gate, you can now drop your hips towards the inside and build the edge angle in a carved turn towards max edge and force at and just past the panel. 

 What you’ve done here is to insert the skivot between the switch / flat base and the part of the video you posted where the hips move down to create a railing edge. That allowed you to maintain a more direct line and a more manageable speed.

If you’re actually an SBX coach or racer (not very clear) you may find some basis for your edge change question (so many “crosses”…) in the tactics you’d use on jumps. What did you have to do at the lip of a jump if you got hung up in traffic and felt like you were going too slow? What did you do before you got to the lip if you thought you would overshoot the landing at your current speed? Your answers have pressure implications which can be applied to turning. Remember too that “pressure” is not only applied, but received. Depending on the phase of the turn, you may be trying like mad to reduce it, but it only increases. Or build it, but nothing is happening  

At this point, you might also film yourself so that you can be seen on a steep course that you can’t rail. This would allow us to see if the reason you’re having difficulty grasping some of this is either you asking too soon and without enough knowledge base, or us getting it wrong. 
 

[RThT ProFlex Kita Hybrid Stiff Soft boots]

9 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

Go back to your Burtons..

Burton?!?

I resent the implication!

That said, AK and Fishes are rad. 

[RThT ProFlex Kita Hybrid Stiff Soft boots]

2 hours ago, dhamann said:

Saw those and said naw. To each their own. As Rob says… hack. 

Not in a bad way. 
If you want stiff, they’ll give you that.
The design of them offers an even flex and they go under the laces well. 
In the 80’s and early 90’s, I ran them with my Koflach Hunters. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

Like this:

 

This is a flat course, so missing the element you started this thread asking about. 

[RThT ProFlex Kita Hybrid Stiff Soft boots]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:21 PM, Shred Gruumer said:

I own a couple pairs of the poweride wing thingy.    So I came up with the below..  almost too stiff ha.  

Full-tilt pro flex tounges expert 12 size extra small.   Cut and modified to fit boot.  If your boot has a front boa I guess you can get creative but usually you don't get front standard lace up which it kinda needs.  Don't think about put these under the boot tounges it will crush your foot..

Boots are new nidecker Kita Hybrid. 

I also use Full tilt pro liners (intuition).

Topped off with expert stretch booster straps.

I love it...I can rest my shins on them like hard boots.

This has been a hack since the Raichle Flexon’s in the 1980’s  

It’s been almost 30 years since I last ran those, but if I were doing it again, I’d have a stiffer front one than in the rear. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

1 minute ago, nicholaswmin said:

Hmm, that's a bit of conflicting advice.

I’ll say it again, but differently. 

You wouldn’t extend to the apex unless you were ****ing up and needed to do what you had to do to stay on your feet. 

It’s not ideal, but better than falling over. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

2 minutes ago, Board Doctor said:

You can’t be fully compressed when you’re moving your board and legs under your body at the transition.  You extend as the board goes out and around the apex.
 

 

You might extend a bit more as you go “out” while doing the skivot, but through the apex you’ll be at your most angulated and “lowest”, so not extending. 
 

Again, I’d say that extending to the apex is either a freecarve / EC move, or you’re making a recovery “shape” if that’s happening in a race course. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

16 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Confused again.

I am compressed(flexed) low when I change edge. Its a down-unweighting after all. So how can be compressing even more in a subsequent part of the turn? 

When do I extend?

Note: I know vertical movements as flexion/extension. I assume compression means flexion, getting low.

If you’re bottomed out when you change edges, you’re too low. 

Make some room for your board to pass under you by coming up a bit, switch edges, pivot to aim and adjust speed, then move towards the board as you engage the carve and increase the edge to the gate and just after. 
 

Rise up a bit to make room for your lower body, switch edges and do it again. 
 

It won’t work for every turn, but if you’re in a good rhythm, that pattern will work in gates on a steeper pitch. 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

5 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

This is what I need final confirmation on. The application of pressure in this scenario is done by extending my legs as soon as i'm on that new edge, cranked high, correct? 

No. 

Firstly, you won’t be at maximum edge angle as soon as you are on the new edge. You’d be jamming it and fall over. you have to build edge angle once you are on the new edge. It happens pretty fast, but don’t try and do it all at once. 
 

You’ll also be compressing and angulating into your max edge angle. As your hip drops, you’re “getting smaller”.

Once you’ve passed the gate and are going across the hill, you’ll rise up, which flattens the edge. 
 

Extending while increasing edge angle is an EC thing done while really inclining.  
 

 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

From what I see, a dual racer on a steep pitch will…

usually up unweight, or at least rise up out of the deeply angulated end position, enough to allow room for the rebounding / releasing board to go from beside them to under themselves. 

Using a rotary or counter move (they have to know both as the release from the previous turn and terrain can be inconsistent) they will engage a skid - pivot to adjust speed and line with the goal of getting the right entry speed for the next turn with the most direct line possible. 

Between this point at about a third the way and half way through, they are building edge angle and pressure to their maximum, right around the position of the gate. 

That max pressure does stay on past the gate to redirect in the new direction and the rider will decrease edge and pressure to begin again. 

So this is definitely different than strictly making a purely carved turns very deliberate and fast switch well above the fall line and generating a lot of edge angle very early… it’s too much of a “round trip” so too slow. The “skivot” keeps the line direct and replaces the roundness tactics with sliding for a moment to adjust speed. 

You’d also talk about strength… there is no substitute for it, balance and nerve. 

Lastly, just watch good FIS racing. All of the above is clearly shown. 
 

[Hats on helmets.]

13 hours ago, philw said:

Pants which look like they're denim. They're hard to get these days, but I have a secret stash bought when they were in fashion. I get people who claim to recognize me from the pants alone, so it must be a "calling card".

At resorts more generally it's probably more "that guy with hard boots" I suppose. Or "that guy with hard boots kicking our ass" if I'm lucky.

You were on the US Olympic Team, that’s how you got those. 
I knew I’d seen you somewhere. 

On 3/12/2024 at 5:40 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

Pretty much the hard boots is my calling card.  Usually the only guy riding alpine at Louise or Sunshine. 

Also the 3 decade old Sims gauntlets. 

Sims anything

[Hats on helmets.]

1 hour ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

I usually tape my sandwich to my helmet

That’s a product

9 hours ago, BlueB said:

^ Trenches have been taken already, so I have to settle for smoking the skiers in the mogul runs. 

Other than that, I have large Cypress stickers on each side of my helmet. 

Ride moguls

10 hours ago, st_lupo said:

Here is my calling card, sometimes visible from LEO.  Small children have refused to participate in ski school when I've been spotted at the hill.

 

You’re so fast your track is already there. 

12 hours ago, Wolf said:

I wear old school ski gaiters.  They're handy for snaking the Intec cables through.  I'm also usually the only Alpine boarder, and everybody recognizes me since you can see the entire hill from the base.

I have so much time for gaiters. There was a time where I was co fronted with having to go without them and I almost didn’t. 

[Hats on helmets.]

Get into it. 

6 years deep, so don’t talk to me about those “Antiordinary” guys with their clear knockoff of my singular style!

What’s your “calling card” that can be spotted from a mile away?

[Softboot Carving worth watching]

On 3/4/2024 at 5:38 AM, softbootsurfer said:

So… this is a Technique ? Is it a necessary function ? or a Style ? Is it helping Response time into transitions or slowing it down?  

It’s a technique he’s adopted to speed up transitions. 

The best way to characterize it would be to say that he’s reminding himself at the end / start of each turn that he needs to be quick edge to edge and immediately develop lots of edge angle.

Call it an aggression cue  

You could also see him do a few turns on flatter terrain where he doesn’t use as much sparkle… if the terrain doesn’t require a criticality of immediate and maximal movement, he just “anticipates” without so much flair. 

[Getting down and riding the pencil line turn to turn?]

4 hours ago, st_lupo said:

Some observation from my pov:

A lot of people over-drive the "balls" you need to attack the steeps (because they try it too soon?) and it builds an unnecessarily big mental hurdle in everybody else.  Practice the basics on terrain that you can master and graduate to steeper when you are ready.

Mastery over speed control is alpha and omega in freeing yourself from the tyranny of the mountain and the snow conditions.  The degree that you can ride within your acceptable level of risk is completely dependent on how well you can manage speed.  A big part of this (for me) was realizing that I was consistently letting too much speed build up even before the first turn.  You very likely accelerate through the apex of the first turn, so you need to learn how to keep your pre-turn speed low enough so that the exit speed is acceptable and controllable.  Given you have a good entry speed, it's only edge pressure and completing those turns that are going to keep the speed in check unless you want to start skidding >yuck<.

This leads to... the realization that steepness is your throttle.  If you can ride your favorite trail with your hardest repeatable pencil carves and decelerate, then your are ready to move up to something steeper, not before. 

Assuming that you've browsed the tech articles and know what you should be practicing, do it.  Try to make virtually every turn of every run valuable.  Maximize edge pressure on every single turn.  Analyze what works and what doesn't.

Groomers are like refined sugar, but crap conditions builds character.  Stay out when the trails are rutted up and teach those legs to ride hard but lite.  It's kind of an oxymoron, but you want to be able to set an edge with maximum pressure and at the same time you need to conform to the contours of the terrain.

Age is a factor.  Don't mean to sound ageist but the general HB carving population is probably getting older and we either survive long enough to see a decrease in our abilities until we throw in the towel, or we get seriously injured.  I'm getting into an age where I have to start thinking about that more and more and I'm not happy about it.

The only person you should measure yourself against is you.  Are you having fun?  Are you getting better?  If no or no:  take a deep breath, slow down and try to break the problem into smaller bite-sized problems.  Prioritize them and attack them.  What gives you the worst problems?  Steepness, ground clutter, ice, being able to carve repeatably,...  Then pick _one_ item and focus on that until you solve it.  There is no magic or talent required here.  Repetitive hard-work and reflection should get you on the path to improvement.

This is a great take. 

I’ll focus on a couple of things that would be extensions of the above…

The first is that carving is not that technically hard to understand and that all the information is out there and has been for decades. In that way, you’re doing what needs to be done, Skuller. The issue then becomes your ability to do “more” of what you already do. Speed, vertical and lateral movements all need to accelerate, or have a “wider” operational range. 

I don’t mind sounding ageist or build-ist, so I will. As a long time instructor type I don’t beat around the bush too much. Anyone with me in that environment payed to be there, so I should do them the courtesy of giving them direct feedback. If you can’t make the movements that allow steep terrain carving, then you’ll have to be happy with the pursuit, not absolute accomplishment. Your build is also very important. Most of the great softboot carvers I know are shorter, lighter, flexible and very fit. Stranda Lars is an excellent carver. He can also go from the seated position into a handstand and back in two movements. James is a rock climber. If they don’t wreck themselves, they may be able to keep carving very well into later life. 
If I knew your physical stats, I could tell you almost immediately what your chances are of improving in the way you want to. The one stat I do know that you’ve mentioned is objectively enough to say be happy with what you’re doing, learn to “centre pivot” and play the long game. 
 

 

[soft board/boot/binding selection for semi competent hardboot carver]

Stiff bindings with “open” no “wings” highbacks. 
you want the bindings stiff and responsive edge to edge, but not wrapping around your lower leg. If they wrap too much, you can’t adjust weight tip to tail which will make powder riding harder and not make carving any easier. With freeride angles, that is. 
I’ve ridden in Drake Podium FF’s for years. I think James runs those too. 
 

My boots are relatively soft Vans. I go for comfort while also keeping the sole length as short as possible, rather than just “stiffness” and have a custom liner. To use the one setup for everything, I prefer to use internal strength to hold the boots where I want them, as opposed to relying on a stiff shell. Like the bindings, I don’t want the equipment to hinder my freeriding by locking my movements up. 
 

As boards go, I can generate low turns at a 27.5 shell with my 27 wide Stranda 164 Shorty  Wide. I wouldn’t go narrower, but for an all rounder, wouldn’t go wider than a 28, or maybe 28.5 at the widest. 
Width is definitely the key to all of this and with a wide board, it’ll click. 
 

6’1” and 225 lbs. Angles are 28 and 2. 
Width is as far back as it goes and one back from the front with 4x2 pattern. 
I’ve used a bit of the old “Gilmour bias” and liked it, though generally just try to keep it even heel to toe. 
 

The one board thing is my jam… I don’t like chopping and changing, especially during the day when on a big mountain, coming back to the car is a pita. That said, I ask A LOT of my boards and the Stranda’s have really stood up. 

 

Know that if you can get good with this setup, you can probably out carve most and go places the alpine board could, but wouldn’t want to. 

[Hazard]

That is f u c k I n g amazing.