[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/24/2024 at 10:08 AM, Board Doctor said:

But may I ask, how ‘early’ is the early edge angle?

Its been getting icy and I’ve been trying to keep turns tight to control my speed (even just on steeper blues)… but too much, too soon and I feel like it slips because I’m not engaging much of the effective edge.

First, it might be helpful to identify 3 commonly recognized parts of a turn:

1. The top of the turn.  Sometimes referred to as the high C, initiation or where you establish a platform.

2. The middle of the turn - the fall line or apex (the apex is not always in the fall line; it might be above or below the fall line).

3. The bottom of the turn.  Sometimes referred to as the low C part of the turn.
 

When to edge and how much edge angle to use depend upon several variables such as surface conditions, your ability, how much speed you can accept/control, the intended turn shape and the limits of your equipment.

On ice or extremely hard snow, try to engage the full effective edge as even-footed as possible (instead of starting by digging the nose or pushing the tail).  If it's so icy that you cannot get (or maintain) edge grip then you'll need to accept some skidding and just go with the flow.  You can try to reduce skidding by being light-footed/absorbing and/or being more patient so you can establish a better platform.

Other things to consider:
Am I engaging the edge too early/aggressively for the conditions?
What will happen if I do not edge early?
What will happen if I do not engage enough edge angle?

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

When I say "rider pressure" I mean an intentional extension by my legs with the sole purpose of exerting additional pressure.

This is referred to as weighting (increasing board pressure against the snow).

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

By "Outside pressure" I refer to the forces that are exerted on the board while turning that are a result of either centrifugal force or my momentum/inertia because of the various variables you mentioned in your previous post. However, it specifically excludes "rider pressure". Maybe "turn pressure" is a better term.

This is referred to as forces of the turn or turn forces.

On 3/20/2024 at 7:18 PM, nicholaswmin said:

pressure = turn pressure + rider pressure.

Pressure develops from rider weight (the weight of the rider), turn forces (forces of the turn) and weighting (increasing board pressure against the snow).
 

I’m not trying to be picky, I just thought you might want to know coaches' definitions.  No need to reply to this post.  Have a great weekend.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

outside pressure = pressure generated by the turn itself, which the rider has to manage in some way.

In the skiing videos, where the coach refers to outside pressure he is talking about the pressure on the outside ski (the ski on the outside of the turn).

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Does this conceptualisation show a progress in my understanding?

Some of it, yes. Some of it, not so much.  And, at times you seem to contradict your own understandings.

Try not to overthink this.  It might be helpful to take a break from thinking about this for a few days.  Then come back to it refreshed, and carefully reread my posts (and others you found helpful) and watch the videos with a focus on cause-and-effect.  Also, before writing down a question, try asking yourself what would happen if the opposite (or a different) action was done (cause-and-effect).

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Because without a high edge angle no tight turn takes place, regardless of the amount of rider pressure I apply to it.

If the snowboard has any sidecut it will turn even with very low edge angle and light/minimum pressure - you can just ride the sidecut and it will turn.

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

With a high edge angle yet without rider pressure, I can still produce early pressure and execute a tighter turn.

Unless the board is unweighted there is rider pressure even when absorbing (this was previously mentioned).

High edge angle will execute a tighter turn than lower edge angle and more pressure will make the turn even tighter, but you don't want too much pressure.

Also, too high of an edge angle puts you on the board's sidewall instead of on the effective edge.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

22 hours ago, Odd Job said:

Cool. I've been doing some variation of this more often this season. Especially when free-riding. Just before the turn ends my core/body is countered as the turn progresses/ends. I guess I'm doing more of a "ski into counter". Allows me great asses to a stivot or jump turns on some terrain riding a 181 Tanker in tight tree/bumps/narrow steeps carving. I noticed no matter what the edge pressure just before the edge change spikes and the board is more likely to have the aft pressure as well.

Gonna watch the video without skipping now....

It's always nice to see that people appreciate what's being posted.  I was wondering if anyone besides the OP is interested in the information I've been providing.

17 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

if I have enough speed, I can create enough edge angle with my extension and skip actively pushing the board, yet still turn in a tight turn.

If you have flexed to start a turn then you'll need to extend to be able to flex again.  When and how fast/much you need to extend depends upon several variables such as steepness, current speed, surface conditions, the intended turn shape, your intended exit speed and achieving/regulating the correct amount of pressure throughout the turn based upon your desired outcome.

Ideally, an expert snowboarder will use their feet, ankles and knees to create/adjust edge angle and also use angulation to increase/maintain edge angle and balance.  If you are waiting for angulation, extension or larger body parts to create the edge angle then you will not achieve early edge angle.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/17/2024 at 8:52 AM, nicholaswmin said:

The sequence I've seen in the videos is enough for me. That's more than enough, thanks again Don.

You're welcome.

This is not tiring me out. However, I do have a life, don't spend much time on this website and I'm routinely on snow until the end of May.

You have provided good responses to my guided discovery method and you made considerable effort to understand the information presented.

So, I'll give you a little bit more...

First consider 3 different snow surfaces:
Ice (smooth and shiny - not tilled or corduroy)
Carvable hardpack
Soft (your edge will sink in 3-4 inches when pressured)

For each type of snow surface above, consider the following:
Is it possible to apply too much pressure?
Is it possible to apply pressure too soon?
What happens if there is not enough edge angle?
What happens if there is too much edge angle?

On 3/17/2024 at 8:52 AM, nicholaswmin said:

1) "Early" pressure is the rider pushing down on a tilted board to start the turn

I have a high-edge angle but no pressure, therefore no turn takes place.

Unless the snowboard is in the moment of being unweighted there's some amount of pressure even while absorbing.

Your unabsorbed body weight provides substantial pressure.
A gentle/slow extension can be used to maintain or increase pressure.
A push provides a lot of pressure (depends upon how hard/fast you push/extend).

If the board is on an edge it will turn.  Less pressure/tilt/bend makes a bigger turn and/or it will develop at a slower rate.

There's a lot more to this, but you have more than enough to work on - it might take years to accomplish a level of proficiency.

Homework assignment: Identify three ways (using body movements) to down-unweight.

The video below explains "and counters to boost outside pressure".

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

14 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

get on a high edge angle immediately

"It's this that's still unclear to me and"

apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn)

Watch the video below all the way to the end (the last frame):

And...

And...

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

47 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

You certainly don't set as much edge as you indicated in the first posts of this thread, yet some training includes turns on steeps with a lot of edge.

I did not mention setting the edge until my sixth post in this thread, which was after you made the post I have quoted below.  My response was to that post and your original question of "How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?".  Good luck in your quest.

On 3/14/2024 at 10:16 AM, nicholaswmin said:

I do SBX coaching and most of my training was descending down steep groomers, often icy or moguled, as fast yet as smooth as possible with zero skidding. There is an explicit focus on avoiding skidded speed checks and carving all the way down. The way you control your speed focuses more on pressure management and turn trajectory/shape. That "pick-up-speed/dump-it/pick-up-speed/dump-it" cycle doesn't fly there. Even carving uphill is considered a bit "mehh".

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

2 hours ago, nicholaswmin said:

Most track turns are banked so you don't need to carve them, you stay flat, yet they still insist on that style of training. I'm not the one to challenge it.

 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

Here's a quote from Snowboard Cross (SBX) racer Nick Baumgartne 10 years ago (and it's still valid today):

The only thing certain about snowboard cross was the sheer unpredictability of it.  You can't be ready for everything that is going to happen, you just go as fast as you can," he told Reuters TV.  "I mean we're flying down the hill at 60 or 70 miles per hour and we're hitting the biggest jumps and we're hitting them full speed. And we are actually hitting them faster than you should probably hit a jump of that size.  But it's what it is, man, the adrenaline, we are chasing it and I'm fine in it.  You have to be aggressive, crazy, and you just got to feel comfortable on that board at the speeds we are running."  www.reuters.com/article/idUSL3N0LF3WD

SBX coaches, racers and spectators want the course run at full speed (no speed checking/scrubbing) and that is a goal when designing the course.  If the SBX course is too fast/dangerous they make changes.  Compared to Parallel Giant Slalom (PGS) and Parallel Slalom (PS), SBX turns are huge with traverses and banks designed to assist with speed control.  The banks can be used to slow down (or speed up) on and allow racers to pass from above or below.  If SBX racers pivot/skid in (or approaching) a turn or before a jump/roller it can cause a crash/pile-up.  As previously stated, in SBX speed checking like that is discouraged and it's actually dangerous.

In 2018 on this forum, I advocated for using drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns as a winning strategy for tight/steep turns in PGS, PS and ski racing - in opposition to forum member's convictions that the racer who carves all the time always wins.  I got trashed for posting that – some of the naysayers even denied drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns were being used and one person said I would ruin my reputation if I did not recant my belief in the validity of drift/skid/pivot/redirect turns.  Even at that time, it should have been obvious I was right.  However, that shows how difficult it can be to change group think especially when you recognize things others don't.  So, I'm not willing to waste my time like that or go through that crap again.

nicholaswmin, you should be studying SBX racers with a focus on (and analyze) what the winners are doing and how they are doing it.  I suggest keeping your questions specific to SBX racing and ask them in a new SBX racing topic/thread.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:53 PM, nicholaswmin said:

Possibly! My butler is asking for a raise.

Dump the butler and get a maid with benefits.

On 3/13/2024 at 8:32 PM, nicholaswmin said:

If the cross-over is not the best choice, which is it the best and why?

I'm going to try and simplify this (keep in mind there are many variables and ways to blend/combine these):  Consider unweighing as vertical movements (up or down) that reduce/release pressure.  Consider cross-under, cross-over and cross-trough as lateral/diagonal movements for the initiation of a turn or the transition from one turn to another. 

Cross-under is typically used for quick short radius turns - it can be done using down-unweighting or up-unweighting but it's usually associated with down-unweighting.

Cross-over is typically used for longer radius turns - it can be done using up-unweighting or down-unweighting but it's usually associated with up-unweighting.

Cross-through is a blend of cross-over and cross-under - as your center-of-mass moves across you also move your board/feet underneath your center-of-mass.  As Jack mentioned, you need the vertical space to do this - if your center-of-mass is low (below your knees) then you need to bring it up enough to allow the cross-through.  Ski coaches often say cross-through is done without vertical movement (just across/lateral/diagonal) but that is not always possible or desirable.  Cross-through is more physically demanding (requires more strength and endurance) than cross-over and cross-under.

In the video that Odd Job posted, the rider is on a moderate slope (not steep by my definition) and he makes no attempt to slow down - in some turns he actually extends while edging, which can be used to maintain speed or even increase speed and/or increase rebound.  The takeaways from that video for carving on the steeps are the quick edge changes with high edge angles (tilt of the board), excellent balance via angulation and pressure control, which allows the rider to slice through the not so smooth surface.

On 3/13/2024 at 3:23 PM, nicholaswmin said:

How can you alter the turn-radius of a carved turn?

For tighter turns: Bend the board more - methods have already been explained but snowboard racers will also drive a turn with additional pressure from the back leg knee and/or use rotation (not enough to skid - think of steering/driving the turn).  Also, get on a high edge angle immediately (flip the board to the edge with your feet) and apply pressure on that high edge angle sooner (at the top of the turn). 

For bigger turns on a tight sidecut/slalom board: Feather the edge, reduce edge angle, reduce pressure - reduce the board bend.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

5 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Or wait a minute... you mean that those aren't just alternative ways to call turns. The cross-through isn't just another name for down-unweighted. It's the name of the transition. The down-unweighted is the unweighting. 

Therefore an edge change is composed of an unweighting and a transition?

The unweighting can be up/down.

The transition is the cross-over,cross-through, cross-under?

Is that correct?

Yes, that is why I said "You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting".

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

3 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

The question is how and why?

Are you going to heist that content?

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

42 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

Cross-over is another name for up-unweighted and that's what I already do.

No, it is not another name for up-unweighted.

Go back and read what I said about cross-over using up, down or no vertical movement.  You need to separate the old ski instruction/coaching dogma from what can be done on a snowboard. 

50 minutes ago, nicholaswmin said:

There's another turn type to use.

Yes.  With all the information provided it should be obvious.  However, you seem to be too hung up on cross-over transitions and up-unweighting.  Hint, what is the fastest turn transition you can make (from a position that has the best balance) and allows quick edge contact?

Also, you should checkout all of my comments here...

Here is a video that also might be helpful...

 

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

1 hour ago, kibber said:

then swivel/set new turn-edge at 45° pointing downhill (racers do this).

This is often referred to as a drift turn but snowboard racers usually do this to take a tighter line, thus the drift (less friction) instead of skid (more friction) for speed control.

[Altering the turn radius of a carved turn on steep terrain]

1 hour ago, nicholaswmin said:

I understand how to work out pressure management/absorption on an up-unweighted.

Pressure management/absorption is used when the edge is engaged.

Unweighting is used to release the edge.  Expert riders/skiers do not need to actively unweight to change edges.

Pressure management/absorption is done regardless of how you unweight (retract, rebound-unweight, down-unweight, up-unweight, or terrain-unweight).

You also seem to be confused about transitions and unweighting.  Example: If you are flexed you can cross-over with and upward movement.  If you are extended you can cross-over with a downward movement.  If you are skilled, and somewhere between fully flexed and fully extended then you can cross-over just by moving across the board even if the edge is fully pressured.

A cross-over transition usually has the timing/rhythm of a longer radius turn and therefore it's not the best choice for quick speed control type turns on a steep slope.

To continue to carve down the hill on a steep slope you need to get on your new edged as quick as possible, be comfortable with higher speeds, and initiate the next turn sooner than you think (until it becomes second nature).  Otherwise, you will need to scrub speed by traversing, turning uphill or skidding.

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[New Anon Helix Goggles - Black Frame with Amber Lens]

30 minutes ago, Chris C said:

Hey NSR, do you know if these would fit over a pair of glasses?  Thanks!

Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm selling the original versions, the new 2.0 version says they do fit over glasses.  The only difference I can see is the new version has a sleeker nose bridge on the frame.  So I am not sure if these fit over glasses.

[New 2024 Burton Men's Driver X Boots size 9.5]

Added picture to original post.

[New Anon Helix Goggles - Black Frame with Amber Lens]

2 hours ago, andre Ray said:

Shoot me some pictures 

I just added 3 pictures to the original post.

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I have 2 pairs - one is in a retail box with its goggle bag and the other is just in its goggle bag.

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[New 2024 Burton Men's Driver X Boots size 9.5]

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[How to Carve a Snowboard]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:06 PM, crackaddict said:

 I'm open to feedback

Nice riding and videography.

In professional ski/snowboard instruction, the word flexion is used to describe what you are calling "compression", because flexion is the opposite of extension and the body's joints flex and extend.  Joint Compression is a therapeutic strategy where pressure is applied to various joints throughout the body.  

In ski racing, you can find discussions about tall transitions versus compact transitions.  However, tall positions are achieved by extension and compact positions are achieved by flexion/retraction.

In case you have not already read it (or a newer version), here's a link to the Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors 2021 Reference Guide https://casi-acms.com/PDF/CASI_RefGuide.pdf

Quote from page 17 in the CASI Reference Guide: "Small Steps Are The Best Way To Learn".

I hope you find this beneficial.

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