de-tune specs

[Guest chaz_d]

Hey, I'm looking to learn a little about detuning my edges. I ride an older Burton Custom 160. When it first came out it debuted as an all mtn board, I pretty much just carve on it with an aggressive alpine stance. I just sharpened my edges & hot waxed, being that I like to carve on this board, what should my rule of thumb be concerning de-tuning the edges?

[Guest jschal01]

Hey, I'm looking to learn a little about detuning my edges. I ride an older Burton Custom 160. When it first came out it debuted as an all mtn board, I pretty much just carve on it with an aggressive alpine stance. I just sharpened my edges & hot waxed, being that I like to carve on this board, what should my rule of thumb be concerning de-tuning the edges?

Search on the topic here, and then also go to Burton's site and follow their instructions for detuning if you want some good guidelines to follow.

[outsider]

when i have my boards sharpened i usually do not detune until i am out on the hill and can get a feel for what exactly i want to do. After a few runs i but out a quarter and start rubbing the exact spots where i want less edge.

[bobdea]

except to remove grip

chances are you don't feel like your board is too grippy

some folks mistake the need to detune when in fact the have whack bevel

this has been gone over many times and the folks that I respect the most have said not to detune except in very specific situations

[Guest jschal01]

Let me start with a friendly :) , but, the "don't detune" wisdom here, and I agree it is probably the received wisdom of this forum overall, has been part of a collection of notions that make sense if you only want to carve nice snow at medium speed without traversing catwalks, etc., but make less sense in many other riding contexts. The received wisdom of the sport overall is to detune, how much depends on exactly where and how you're riding. The thread from a couple days ago on this has Prior's response for a "standard" detune for people who want to look at this. Burton likewise will have detune actually marked on the board because a detune is generally going to be indicated.

So, it's helpful to frame the context of why you would choose not to detune. Whack bevel is not the reason, the reason for detuning is wanting to be able to go smoothly onto and off of your edge, once on edge.

And if people like the feeling of being locked on edge due to no tail detune, for instance, that's cool and I'm not going to say it's wrong, but it can be a significant safety issue too. One that maybe seems like a safety issue only after a trip to the trees.

[Guest jschal01]

The origin for detuning the tip and tail was/is to better initiate a skid. Since alpine boarders rarely skid and most want the maximum edge hold, most do not detune.

That's actually not the origin, the origin is to assist a clean entry into and out of the cut for carving, as well as to guard against unwanted hookups and the like above the contact point where you detune more aggressively.

And again, define what you mean by alpine boarding...you sound like what you are really saying is, again, focusing solely on wanting to hook up easily carving, on nice snow, at medium speeds. How about bumps, ruts, powder, blue ice, or higher speeds?

[bobdea]

all the time your tune does not matter as long as you wax

its not like I am a weekend warrior, I have put in my time and I know what works for me, even on terrible snow

I often used to be riding in conditions that were not "openable" and still not detuning anything but the longest of my boards

a dull edge is not your friend on a cat track either IMHO

[Guest jschal01]

all the time your tune does not matter as long as you wax

its not like I am a weekend warrior, I have put in my time and I know what works for me, even on terrible snow

I often used to be riding in conditions that were not "openable" and still not detuning anything but the longest of my boards

a dull edge is not your friend on a cat track either IMHO

??? We may just be talking past each other, which happens a lot with me. :)

But detuning does not mean dulling the whole edge, it means transitioning to a sharp edge below the contact point. On catwalks the reason the detune is so important is because it allows you to run a flatbase without worrying about the board hooking up. This is in fact particularly important in nice snow, because then you often end up with enough loose snow to make it easier to catch an edge.

Further, I'm not sure I follow detuning only the longest boards?

[bobdea]

on long boards makes it easier to skid the board, for example if you are running a race that has some tight gates at the top but then opens up later

my application of this was my burner that I was often on some pretty nasty conditions such as golf ball textured ice and when I say ice I mean the grey/brown variety you see after water has been flowing over ledge and it freezes up

that board was a poor choice for that type of riding in the first place but between wanting to see if I could make something like that my primary and not having my other decks shipped to me at that point thats what I was on

years ago I used to ride with more detune, usually razor sharp under foot was all I cared about but as I got on better boards, became a better rider and applied advice from guys like Bremmer I got away from detuning with good results

I have played with this allot, and I have become pretty sure about what works for me and usually for other folks for whom I tune their gear

[Phil]

On catwalks the reason the detune is so important is because it allows you to run a flatbase without worrying about the board hooking up.

That sounds like a better reason to run a base bevel.

[Guest jschal01]

Re: long vs. shorter boards, I understand your explanation for wanting to jam turns, but still don't understand why you wouldn't detune say, a slalom board, too, on the shorter end of the spectrum?

The "collection of notions" about riding that I referred to earlier, including the "no detune" school of thought, in fact was put forward by some of the individuals you refer to. And I would view it as very "Stratton-centric," focused on recreational carving, "ballistic" or not, and mellow terrain with good snow. (Groomed frozen granular, even refrozen patches, that takes an edge does qualify as good snow.) That's not a knock, btw, it works well for them and they're very good at what they do.

But I think it's helpful to people to understand where the "Don't detune" school of thought is coming from -- maybe I'm being unfair but I would bascially call it a rec carving school of thought put forward by people who aren't, for instance, going to have to ride the Silk Road at Vail and be able able to stay flatbase for long periods. That's why the folks at Prior for instance to go with a detune recommendation as opposed to saying "only detune if you need to take a little bite off."

[Guest jschal01]

That sounds like a better reason to run a base bevel.

Not necessarily. Depends on how much edge grip and engagement you ultimately want as to how base bevel and detune are going to interact. But, for a generally applicable example, run a 1/1 bevel that won't hang up on rails if you're smooth, and detuning is generally still going to be indicated in many riding situations for the reasons discussed.

[bobdea]

I am going to insist that detune is the least of your worries if you want to ride a flat base

a good grind and some bevel are going make a huge difference in that arena

if you are in CO you are not going to see bad snow, I rode every day in CO for a season and maybe three early mornings was there snow that was scary, that softened up later

unless you mean washboard on the cat tracks in that case I would say nothing makes that better except getting skis

the reason I don't with SL decks is that between having less edge and grip to start with, being more manuverable and a much smaller turn radius if I need to jam a turn it happens easily anyway

a key point here is that the size of the trail and obstacles stays the same for the most part but your board with a running length that is 35 cm longer, stiffer and wants turn bigger is less managable

[Guest jschal01]

Well, since the community here is largely made up of people in search of the complete arc in all conditions, my comments and I’m sure most others comments, are toward that bent.

Me: All conditions: that implies to me all sorts of snow and terrain. For instance, dipping into trees for some fresh snow, maybe riding through a bumped out section, then carving corduroy on the way back to the lift. If to you "all conditions" means "all smooth blue groomers until they first begin to bump," detuning would still be indicated for most imo but certainly would be less important.

"Riding catwalks is not even worth mentioning. Riding bumps and powder might also fall under another category. I certainly have different criteria for those disciplines."

Me: This is why a lot of people don't like to be near hardbooters on catwalks: a lot of them can't really keep a straight line and are very unpredictable. I think lack of detuning may have something to do with this. Not even worth mentioning? Maybe not where you ride; but there are lots of areas where getting around requires extensive traversing.

"But, for carving, in all conditions, detuning typically means losing some of the intended performance of the board."

Me: I am not talking about a traditional 6 inch detune tip and tail as for a straight ski, I am talking about ensuring a smooth transition from round to sharp below the contact point, and aggressively detuning above. This does not take away performance unless "grabbiness" is considered integral to performance.

"Edge hold equals confidence. Why anyone would want to take away edge hold is, well, beyond me."

Me: Again, not talking about taking away edge hold, I'm talking about blending the cut. You can rock a 4 degree side bevel and not have it grab if you blend the cut and work with the base bevel at the same time; don't detune at all and that will be a very grabby board unless you go so high on base bevel as to make the side angle pointless.

"FYI - We’ve experimented with all sorts of detuning over the last 10 years. I’ve spent countless hours talking to professional tuners like Mike at PTC. Most subscribe to a no-detune method."

Me: Well, I've been full of it before, maybe I am now too, but I would be very surprised if the PTC guys were not doing any blending at tip and tail on the edges of, say, their PGS boards. Again, as I stated either in this thread or the earlier one, I am not talking about an straight ski detune, I am talking about detuning through the contact point and blending into the sharp edge.

"Again, we’re talking about arcing a turn. Running along the edge of the board. Not skidding of any sort."

Me: Exactly why you should be detuning. If you wanted to simply skid most turns, you could go for an absurdly high base bevel, sort of a LTR-type thing, and "swim" away without violently engaging an edge being too much of an issue.

"Now if we’re talking about all-mountain….

Me: I don't know why riding all-mountain on a carving setup should seem so foreign unless you're on a slalom board. Again, if what you're into is simply recreational carving on smooth blue groomers, then a lot of what I've said has less application, except for the safety issue of getting stuck on edge and for handling catwalks. But a lot of the talk on this board mentions plates in the park, hardbooters riding BX, etc. If only smooth blue groomers are being considered, that's fine but it is a very small part of the riding universe.

[Erik J]

It's not de-tune, it's de-rider.

Couldn't resist, back to my hole.

[Guest jschal01]

It's not de-tune, it's de-rider.

Couldn't resist, back to my hole.

Had to grind that one out, did you? :D

[Erik J]

I'm going to have the best comeback for that in about 78 hours.

[Fleaman]

I dont know, but when I was riding my PR 188 with no detune, it was painfull to skid on really hard snow. The board's tip and tail grabbed like no tomorrow.

I detuned it at the base lodge and it made a huge difference.

Because I ride all Mountain, I detune about 5-10 cm tip and tail depending on my mood and the amount of beer I had while tuning my board.

[Guest Tem73]

coming from myself,.. whom i bought my burton fp 180s, i had my board in for a wax and the first tune ive ever told someone to do on the board thinking the edge should be good for along time....since today ive probably riden about 50 times, the guy calls me at home and says how do i want my edge what degree,

he said i could always detune if i dont like ....he mentioned better edge with icey cond but maybe alittle slide out with the softer fluff, I thought he said 3 degree edge, does this sound right? ive noticed much more control on the ice which i like! at high speeds:1luvu:

[Guest jschal01]

From PTC's own website:

"Proper base beveling and tip and tail detuning, are responsible for creating the intuitive performance your shaped skis have to offer. Proper detuning involves no "rounding" of the edges, as it would degrade performance. Detuning is designed to remove the sharpness without destroying the true edge angles. Detuning lengths vary depending on ski/board type and skier/rider type. "http://www.summitskishop.com/ptcprocess.php?page=PTC

I don't know the guys there and haven't spoken to them, but I wouldn't necessarily cite them as being in the "no detune" camp overall. Aside from proving that business has been a bit slow and/or my productivity down, that's why I think it really does help to give context of the specific intended use when making the "no detune" statement.

edit to add: Actaully, I believe the PTC guys have posted on here once or twice, it'd be great to hear from them their thoughts on detuning and base bevel for specific situations, if they're willing to do that without feeling they're "giving away the store" in terms of their trade knowledge.

[Guest jschal01]

had an interesting conversation regarding race stock skis this weekend where the guy I was speaking with said that basically everyone he knows detunes a bit on their race skis. I also had earlier forgotten to cross-reference Bordy's post from a while back on this, www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=1456&highlight=detuning+bordy

hopefully the link works. In that post as well the Stratton contingent is making the "no detune" point, which as I said may be perfectly valid too if your sole focus is that type of riding, assuming you're fine with the risk of getting caught on edge or folding the nose as well. Different strokes.

[cb200]

Anyone tried asymetrical detuning? ;)

[Guest jschal01]

Anyone tried asymetrical detuning? ;)

Interesting Q. Are you basically wanting to depower your toeside relative to your heelside?

[Mike T]

Anyone tried asymetrical detuning? ;)

I *think* Bruce Varsava mentioned doing this, more precisely, detuning farther down the tip and not so far up the tail on heelside.

[Guest jschal01]

I *think* Bruce Varsava mentioned doing this, more precisely, detuning farther down the tip and not so far up the tail on heelside.

That approach sounds basically like sort of recreating an asym in terms of where the edge actually engages, only through the detune and not the board geometry itself? But a cool idea though, definitely interested myself how someone's found this if they've done it and how they'd define their heelside technique in relation to this.