into the demon's lair

[Guest jschal01]

Regarding the Dominant Slick, you're viewing it in terms of all-around freeriding. It, along with the Streetdweller and a few other rail-specific boards, is just very specialized. If there's a market for that type of specialized product, so be it. Phil's point on catching edges is why most rail riders now take the approach of simply going with a 2 or 3 degree base bevel rather than dulling their edges completely, I think the real issue is with burrs on the rail though in terms of edges actually "catching."

It is possible to look at Burton's stable of boards -- maybe 20 or so models this year? -- and say a lot of this is marketing driven. Fish, split, freeride, all mountain freestyle, and symmetrical twin is basically what they and any other board company without an alpine lineup is offering. I would never get the Dom Slick, and for me to spend the $$ to get something like a Vapor I'd want bombproof construction instead of lightweight due to my preferences. But if the market supports 3-4 years of offering the Dom SLick, it's obviously making someone happy enough, so while it doens't answer my needs I can't say it's a bad product.

I'm not going to buy a GS board either anytime soon, and based on number of riders the GS board is probably as specialized if not more so than a rail board, but that doesn't mean they're a dumb idea.

[Derf]

I'm still confused about the softboot market, so much board! In my opinion, for softboots, 4 models are enough:

Freestyle (soft flex)

Freestyle wide (soft flex)

Freeride/BX (medium to stiff)

Freeride/BX wide (medium to stiff)

Maybe you could add powder or big mountain boards, but these are more of a niche within the softboot market. So that makes 6.

[diver john]

You need not worry we will never be fashionable. Beautiful yes, but not fashionable

[NateW]

My first board was a Gyrator. Foam cores seemed like a great idea, until the idea had been around long enough for the early cores to break down... Like, two seasons, was it?

My guess is the ski companies are looking at Lib's "Narrow Ass Snowboards with Magne-Traction" and pissing themselves. With laughter, I mean. :rolleyes:

The Donek skis, on the other hand...

[ak_rider]

the "edgeless" rail boards are not that way to stop from catching an edge so to speak. If you try to boardslide and are not centered, as mentioned, the metal edge pushes down on the metal rail and the board slides out really fast, with just p-tex it's easier to do boardslides. you can be off balance and not end up with a rail in your ass in .01 seconds. basically making tricks easier for people who cant do them properly. this could probably have been explained better but i tried. all this snow in summit co must be affecting my brain :p

[bobdea]

other than the grocer and the litigator

but the magne traction idea seems to be valid as you don't go too nuts with it.

a couple ski companies played with doing the same thing but only at the nose and tail of the ski, volkl(though its been ten years it might have been another company) actually played with elongating the area that the sidecut ends and then the nose of the ski starts along with very slight varations at nose of the ski as well.

lib tech skis I bet will do great, the only huge growth really going on in the ski world is with the park stuff and that is where people who are in love with lib tech tend to hang.

they have the core image that the pants low, big headphones crowd love, one area that none of the big ski companies really can grab, in other words lib tech has park monkey street cred.

I think its great for the ski industry because it is giving some chances for small companies to grow and even some more to start up giving the big guys competition, and thats good for the skiers.

Honestly, if you market skis the right way skiers will buy anything the thing that is changing is that what the youngens want is getting closer to the freestyle snowboard scene.

Snowboarders will buy anything as well, look at forum and geenyus, those boards are crap but they have a image that people dig, the thing that makes me snicker about that is the folks rag on burton tend to love forum and geenyus but they got bought up by the big B awhile back.

If I lived in the park anything that kept a rail away from my tailbone I would welcome, just like I welcome boards with 16+ meter sidecut because I like to be able still carve if I open it up a little.

hell, even if I were riding pow allot edgless in the middle would be fine on a giant swallow tail or something, think about the number of boards that get edges yanked out by hidden rocks on pow days, without edges between the feet you would probably only end up with a core shot that is repairable as opposed something that is hardly if at all.

Maybe it would even save you from taking a nasty tumble in the trees.

[pnwradar]

I saw a couple last year fishing "my" river, looked like they drove straight from the Eddie Bauer store downtown. Each of them was wearing and waving a few grand in gear, and completely oblivious to the fish. Looked like they were having fun regardless. I fish the same water with ratty sneakers, waving a hand-me-down rod, and I doubt I have any less fun. And, given a better budget I expect I'd be looking at handmade bamboo not the latest hi-tech Sage rod.

I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes? When I see their boards lined up at the store, they all look the same except for the topsheet -- which is really how their target market shops for boards. I'm so far removed from their target market, it's no wonder I'd rather hang out with tele riders than Burton riders.

-jon-

[Scorpio]

I was speaking with an action sports consultant who stategically advises companies in the action sports industry and he made an interesting comment.

"One piece of bad news- this is a tough industry right now. Especially in hard goods, making money is difficult. Lacking any significant product differentiation not based on marketing, price is important. Big companies, like VF industries, are getting to be more and more important. It’s not so much the action sports industry any more as the fashion business. What use to be considered big companies in action sports are now smaller companies in this much larger playing field. I’ve been suggesting that if your revenues are under $1billion, you may have trouble competing at this new level unless your niche is very, very well defined."

So, although we chastize burton and like companies, they are still about business, for better or worse.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes?

Friend of mine runs a skate shop in town, he tells me the skateboards are darn near a loss leader - he makes all his money in clothes and shoes. He might make $5 selling a $70 deck, but his profit on the fashion is probably over 100%. He also tells me that only 5% of people buying skate shoes actually skate in them.

[jdgang]

Friend of mine runs a skate shop in town, he tells me the skateboards are darn near a loss leader - he makes all his money in clothes and shoes. He might make $5 selling a $70 deck, but his profit on the fashion is probably over 100%. He also tells me that only 5% of people buying skate shoes actually skate in them.

When I went to go get my shield jacket the guy at the local shop logged into the dealer section of the website...Price for shop 145$ price to me (msrp) 290$ markup 100%....and they (burton) didnt even have any in stock

[Scorpio]

Aside from the ridiculous markup, the replenishment cycle for clothing and accessories versus hardgoods is more frequent. A person might buy maybe one board every couple of years if that. Whereas that same person might get a new shirt, jacket, leash etc... every season if not multiple times in that season. Money is def in the soft goods.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Fortunately for my buddy, skate decks are disposables these days, so he'll probably sell a half-dozen decks and several pairs of shoes a year to a hardcore skater.

[Guest jschal01]

Again, thank God for the fashion sales for keeping the skateshops, etc. open and available to those who actually skate, ride, etc. We lost probably the best indoor mini in southern CT when a local skateshop went out of business because they weren't moving enough softgoods, in part.

"I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes? When I see their boards lined up at the store, they all look the same except for the topsheet -- which is really how their target market shops for boards. I'm so far removed from their target market, it's no wonder I'd rather hang out with tele riders than Burton riders."

What's a Burton rider? Some people ride their splits and almost never ride a lift. Some people hike the park with their twin and almost never rider a lift. Some people hike the pipe...frequently very different fashion between those three groups, but a very similar approach to the sport in many ways in terms of the hiking and what they get out of it. Some people ride a Triumph and never touch the park. Some people ride a Custom and ride everything.

Spend a day in the trees on a Fish and you may think Burton still has some soul. The Fish is pretty close to that handmade bamboo rod in some ways.