Tips for beginner on what old gear to buy?

[Stefan Bajic]

Hello!

In my home country (Serbia) there's not a lot of used equipment being sold in second-hand markets. I've been snowboarding for a while and want to try out alpine for the speed, balance, focus, something is drawing me in  I feel. The equipment I found is pretty cheap (but also very old which would affect my experience I'm aware) and would enable me to head to the slopes and try this style of boarding out.

Some physical info about me:
Height 176cm (5 feet, 9 inches)
Weight 68kg (150 lbs)
Generally I wear EU size 43 shoes (US 9.5 - 10)

There are two pairs of hard boots I've found:
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/cipele-za-snowboard-hardboot-marke-deeluxe-malo-koriscene/oglas/164643890?filterId=5706080836
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/pancerice-hardboots-tvrde-cizme-ups-asy-mmetry-cal-snowboard/oglas/171601844?filterId=5706080836

Here are some snowboards on offer:
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/daska-za-sneg-snoubord-scott-racing-evolut-strike-67-164cm/oglas/129049546?filterId=5717456944
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/daska-snoubord-160-sa-vezovima/oglas/148726642?filterId=5717456944
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/snoubord-hooger-booger/oglas/131202579?filterId=5717456944
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/daska-za-snoubord-sa-vezovima-156cm-burton/oglas/157768109?filterId=5717456944
https://kupujemprodajem.com/sport-i-razonoda/ski-oprema-snoubord/snoubord-163cm-ltd/oglas/145860904?filterId=5717456944

What do you think about the equipment?
What is the snowboard length I should aim for?
Are the boots compatible with the bindings?

Thank you for your time and for helping someone new potentially get into the sport!

[philw]

1. I owned both those boot models. The UPZ are really old, the Indy (red boots) was a later model. I chucked mine out or you could have had them. Around the time of those UPZs I also used ski boots a fair bit, which is amusing [kind of] as my current boots are Atomic Backlands (with Link Levers). So a lot of stuff will work, kind of.
   
   Those boots weigh a lot as the materials are last century. I'd be somewhat wary of plastic  deterioration, depending on how old the stuff is.
    
2. I would avoid asymmetrical boards if possible. They are all pre about 1994 and it's a design we almost don't have at all today, for good reason. If you do buy asym, make sure you get one which works the right way for your stance. But don't buy it.
    
3. Inserts? Buy boards which have inserts, not which were drilled, because (a) inserts are newer; and (b) you need to be able to change the binding spacing and angle and inserts make that easier. The old burton insert pattern ("3D") is less common - and worse - than the current 4x4 which everyone other than Burton still uses.
    
4. Boot / Binding Length If you look at the soles of either of those two pairs of boots you can see the characteristic "lips" on each end, designed for the bails of the bindings to fit over. The bindings that I saw in those links you provided were all I think early versions of the current F2 bindings (originally named "Proflex" iirc). F2 bindings come in a couple of different lengths...M (up to 27.5cm) and L(26.5cm up). You may want to double check the fit, but you might be right at the sweet spot if you're lucky. If you can use either, get the smaller ones as they weigh less.
    
5. Board length (and width...) Well it depends how old the board is. The best thing to do, if possible, is to find the original manufacturer's recommended weight range and use that. Otherwise, probably ask here and maybe someone will know.
   
   Fashions change over time, so older boards would be ridden longer, for example. Around the turn of the century board widths were at a minimum - everyone went for steep angles and skinny boards for a year or two. We're over that now.
   
   So what the board's designed to be ridden at... affects which one is best for your size/weight.

You could check https://www.frozen-backside.de/ - those guys are closer to you than this forum, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't have some old gear they want to move on. I chucked all mine away as there's no market for it here in UK - so it goes. I would imagine you could at least pick up 2nd hand F2 boards, of which there ought to be a lot more around than Burtons (because Burton dumped hard boot boards last century, where as F2 still makes them). Try German eBay too... and don't pay a lot of money as 2nd hand snowboard gear is mostly worthless, imho.

[Wolf]

That equipment is quite old, especially the four asymmetric boards and the UPS boots.  Of the items you linked, the red Deeluxe boots and the Strike 67 snowboard would be the only thing to look at.  I think those could give you a good taste of what alpine snowboarding feels like on good, groomed snow.  The bindings on the Strike are Burton Race Plates.  Those work with the boots, but they are considered to be rather flexible bindings and not very strong.  But I think they would be fine for your 68kg.  The 163cm board length is a good short/medium length to learn on.  If you enjoy trying alpine snowboarding, you will probably want to upgrade to better equipment quickly. 

Be careful at first with older equipment as any plastic parts may have become brittle with age and could break.  

[slabber]

Welcome @Stefan Bajic.  Where in Serbia are you?  I have worked with colleagues in Novi Sad for years. 

Look to invest in the best boots you can get as those are the key interface.  Newer better than older plastic.  Last thing you want is a boot that fails on you, causing injury etc.  Balance your budget against your board budget but don't skimp on the boots.  

 

[BlueB]

Welcome @Stefan Bajic! 

Pozdrav Stefane, 

Ja sam Boris iz Vankuvera. Odrastao u Beogradu i skijao na Kopaoniku kad god sam imao priliku. Nastaviću na Engleskom, da mogu ostali da se nadovezuju, ali slobodno me pitaj i kroz privatne poruke ako zatreba. Možda mogu da te povežem sa nekim na Kopu ko bi mogao da ima, ili zna za, neku alpine dasku ili vezove... 

 

You've got a lot of good advice from the others already. 

I'd like to add about the boots.

Don't worry about your street shoe size. You need to measure your mondo point, which is the length of your foot in cm, rounded of to the 0.5. It's better to round down than up. Stand bare foot, heels against a wall, mark by your longest toe and measure. If it's, for example, 27.7, your mondo size is 27.5. Boots need to fit tight. It's easier to make small boots to fit larger, than other way round. The mondo number is typically engraved inside the plastic of the lower shell (ignore tongue or calve part). Typically, it would say like 27-27.5, as the same shell accomodates 2 sizes, using the same liner. If no numbers, get the liner out, place your foot into the shell, toes touching the front, then insert your hand, palm to the Achilles, fingers behind the heel. There should be no more than two overlapped fingers between your heel and the shell. One minimum.

Use quality insoles in your boots. What comes from the factory is normally garbage. 

If you absolutely can not find good snowboard hard boots, you can try the Alpine Touring (AT) ski boots, there should be lots of them in the shops. They are softer and have greater range of motion than real ski boots, especially when unlocked. You might want to replace/make a spring device to replace the locking latch, but that's next level. 

As for the board, as others said avoid anything asymmetrical, or without inserts. You ride at a very crowded mountain, so I'd look for a smaller, softer and tight turning board. If a slalom race board, 156-163. If all-mouintain, or a freecarver, 160-165, 170 max. Radius not bigger than 10m. Wider (20+) is better when the slopes start to get choppy (which is after 2 first runs in the morning, at your hill). 

Bindings, F2 are better than Burton, if you can find some. For Burtons you'll have to make some toe/heel shims to adjust the stance. F2 has them already. 

Ok, that much for now. 

Edited November 22 by BlueB

[crackaddict]

8 hours ago, philw said:

I would avoid asymmetrical boards if possible. They are all pre about 1994 and it's a design we almost don't have at all today, for good reason

Why do you say that Phil?  It always seemed to me that Asym makes a lot of sense given that the way we stand on a board is asymmetrical.  I always thought this fad disappeared because production is easier when the boards are all the same and the retailers got stuck with too many boards they couldn't sell.  I figured this to be another example of how the industry feeds us whatever is best for them, not necessarily what's best for us.  I fully acknowledge though that even the top World Cup racers are on symmetrical boards (I think?).

I agree that @Stefan Bajic probably shouldn't buy an antique Asym, but I'm inclined to believe that there's potential in the Asym design and genuinely curious as to why you seem to disagree. 

Thirst boards are always Asym and JJA is building me an Asym right meow.  Bruce toyed with the idea as well though he never had the time to fully plumb it's depths.

[Jack M]

29 minutes ago, crackaddict said:

It always seemed to me that Asym makes a lot of sense given that the way we stand on a board is asymmetrical.

Our movements across the board should be symmetrical, especially with steeper stances like 55 degrees or more.  If anything, it could be argued that the heelside sidecut should be shifted slightly forward, as it is common for people to shift their weight almost perpendicular to their bindings.

Regardless, these asym boards are just too stinking old to be considered for actual riding.

@Stefan Bajic, you've gotten some good advice here, but I would just like to add that I think buying gear this old is a waste of money compared to opening your wallet and buying more recent gear.  If you discover that you enjoy alpine snowboarding, you'll be able to use it for a much longer time.  If you're using this very old gear you'll want to upgrade it soon, and you'll have a hard time selling the old stuff.  If you discover that alpine snowboarding is not for you, again it will be hard to sell the old gear, and easier to sell newer gear.  Check out https://i-carve.com, they sell new-old-stock gear at a discount. 

Volkl and F2 are the best old boards to look for.  For newer boards, F2, Kessler, SG, Oxess, Nobile, OES, Apex, Elan.

[philw]

32 minutes ago, crackaddict said:

Why do you say that Phil?  It always seemed to me that Asym makes a lot of sense given that the way we stand on a board is asymmetrical.  I always thought this fad disappeared because production is easier when the boards are all the same and the retailers got stuck with too many boards they couldn't sell.  I figured this to be another example of how the industry feeds us whatever is best for them, not necessarily what's best for us.  I fully acknowledge though that even the top World Cup racers are on symmetrical boards (I think?).

The simple answer is: without dating each board, I can say with confidence that from that list the asym boards and the ones without inserts are antiques. Anyone shopping for this stuff should buy the newest gear they can, because snowboard gear got rapidly better over time. So avoid those is my advice.

The "industry feeds us whatever is best for them" argument seems to require an industry wide conspiracy  which seems unbelievable to me. It's hard to disprove conspiracy stuff, but I've never seen one.

[quote]Thirst boards are always Asym and JJA is building me an Asym right now.  ...[/quote]I'll certainly be interested to hear how that goes, although I'm sceptical because of the history, and I never bought the mechanical explanation for the whole concept. But the proof's in the riding; I was sceptical about the Burton Fish too, until I rode it.

I wasn't particularly aware that Thirst boards (which I've never ridden) are asym - if that's true my statement that "it's a design we [hard booters] don't at all have today" is not precisely correct and I apologise for that. "Most people riding hard boots this century aren't doing it on asym boards" would perhaps be better.

[barryj]

12 hours ago, Stefan Bajic said:

The equipment I found is pretty cheap (but also very old

Don't Do It!

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

buying gear this old is a waste of money compared to opening your wallet and buying more recent gear. 

Ditto!

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

Check out https://i-carve.com, they sell new-old-stock gear at a discount. 

Double Ditto!   Ivan is Tha Man at icarve and can help you out!

[slabber]

I guess the challenge with icarve is that there are no prices on most of the products on the website so it's hard to gauge what the cost may be...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Just send him an email asking about what you’re interested in. He was pretty responsive when I did that. 

[Stefan Bajic]

Okay first of all, a big thank you to everyone for replying, sharing the information and welcoming me. It means a lot and it's appreciated. I have some additional questions and comments, so if anyone is up for it we can continue the discussion.

@philw Thanks for the thorough reply and for sharing the link to Frozen Backside, I will cross-post there. German eBay is an option although I want to check how much the shipping + customs fees would potentially be.

1. Hmm does the Strike 67 board qualify as asymmetrical? Technically yes, right, but I'm not sure how much it would affect the riding experience?

2. You've mentioned that around the turn of the century narrower boards were used, why was this abandoned and people went back to using wider boards again (in theory narrower is faster but also less stable?)

@Wolf Thanks for sharing the details about the gear, my intuition was that those would be good options from the stuff available.

@slabber Located generally in Belgrade now. Novi Sad is great and I visit from time to time (some friends are living there), there's a nice indoor climbing gym. Thanks for the boots reminder, when I was getting regular snowboarding gear I was looking out for that as well!

@BlueB Pozdrav! Drugar sa fakulteta je otišao za Vankuver, isto vozi bord, kaže da je sjajno tamo za vožnju. Hmm jel znaš možda nekog na Kopu ko podučava ovaj stil vožnje? Možemo dalje da se čujemo kroz privatne poruke. Hvala ti na savetima i pomoći!

When you say "The mondo number is typically engraved inside the plastic of the lower shell" you mean inside the boot lower down (do I need to remove the liner to see it)?

Hmm at the end of your comment you mention shims, can you point me to a place that has more information about that?

@Jack M Right, if I try it out and feel like exploring alpine further I'll definitely invest in better gear. Thanks for recommending i-carve they're in Slovenia which is nearby.

[Jack M]

27 minutes ago, Stefan Bajic said:

Hmm does the Strike 67 board qualify as asymmetrical?

No.  Nice looking shape, probably the best choice of the ones you've shared.  Still pretty old though.

[Wolf]

On the red Deeluxe boots, there is also a small boot sole length number, in mm, molded on the outside of the shell, down low on the side of the heel.  This table, originally posted by pokkis, shows the relationship between Mondo size and boot sole length for the old Raichle shells.  The Deeluxe Indy boots are the same shells as Raichle AF series, shown in the lower table:

 

 

Edited November 22 by Wolf

[Wolf]

For a shim to provide some forward lean (or heel lift) on the rear binding, I can see a Burton seven degree wedge plate under the rear binding on the Strike 67 snowboard.  It's the black plastic material that is visible around the edge of the gray binding plate.  So you will have that to experiment with if you buy the Strike 67.

[philw]

1 hour ago, Stefan Bajic said:

... 2. You've mentioned that around the turn of the century narrower boards were used, why was this abandoned and people went back to using wider boards again (in theory narrower is faster but also less stable?) ...

I'm not sure why fashions change, I was just wittering and others may have different views. 

Narrow boards were supposed to be "quicker edge to edge", but to my thinking the real issue with them was that they required steeper binding angles as you want your toes/heels to be close to the board's edge but not in the snow. I mean: the fashion was for very forward stances for a while, and narrow boards go with those,.... they all work.

And you'll find people ripping glaciers on very narrow Virus boards today, and folk like me riding much mellower stances on all mountain boards... 

Stability... I suspect that's more of a construction issue than connected to the width. 

[Jack M]

Evolution.  The pendulum swung from very wide alpine boards (like 26cm waist) and mellow stance angles to very narrow boards (18cm or less) and very steep stance angles because people realized a more forward stance and posture was better than the old sideways posture.  But they overshot the mark.  Everything has backed off from that extreme, and board waists have settled around 20cm for racing.  For freecarving there is no rule, but I like race technique and boards.  Some people still ride 18-19 or less and some people love Skwals.  "Extreme Carvers" (tm) prescribe wider waists like 23.

[BlueB]

2 hours ago, Stefan Bajic said:

@BlueB Pozdrav! Drugar sa fakulteta je otišao za Vankuver, isto vozi bord, kaže da je sjajno tamo za vožnju. Hmm jel znaš možda nekog na Kopu ko podučava ovaj stil vožnje? Možemo dalje da se čujemo kroz privatne poruke. Hvala ti na savetima i pomoći!

When you say "The mondo number is typically engraved inside the plastic of the lower shell" you mean inside the boot lower down (do I need to remove the liner to see it)?

Hmm at the end of your comment you mention shims, can you point me to a place that has more information about that?

Yes, inside, remove the liner. 

On the F2 you get some factory shims similar to the white ones in the pic (those are aftermarket, though). They can be used for forward (or back) tilt or canting, depending how you configure them. 

Wolf has shown the wedge that can be used with Burtons, under the binding. It has fixed angle and provides some tilt and cant simultaneously. 

You can make your own shims easily, similar to the F2, out of the plastic cutting board. I use the thin board from Ikea, because it can be cut with scissors. You need a drill for the holes. Cut a lot of pieces and stack them as desired. 

Poslaću ti PM oko instrukcije na Kopu. 

[Stefan Bajic]

@Wolf Hmm I thought I understood mondo size from what BlueB posted before but I'm a bit confused now. My foot size is 26.9cm (not sure if I should round down or up in this case? the general rule is down but this value is close to the top of the range) so looking at the bottom part of the screenshot should I go for the closest higher value (M24 = 270mm)? The M24 is mondo size right, I thought it was something like 26 or 26.5, were they skipping .5 increments as they're not present in the screenshot?

[Wolf]

Stefan - the Mondo size is different from the boot sole length.  The boot sole length is useful to know sometimes when setting up bindings (especially for ski boots in alpine ski bindings).  With a 26.9cm foot, you would want either a Mondo 26 or Mondo 27 boot, and as you said, you might need Mondo 27 because your foot is right between sizes. 

Checking the boot sole length molded into the boot is just a way to determine the Mondo size of the boot.  Specifically, those red Deeluxe Indy boots you found should have a sole length of 289mm if they are Mondo 26, or 299mm if they are Mondo 27.  

[Jack M]

The number embossed on the outside of the shell is the shell length on the outside.  I forget if it's sole length or overall length but that number isn't really useful for us.  The mondopoint size is more important, and your size is the length of your foot in cm.  Unfortunately you're between sizes in UPZ so you're going to have to make a decision.  They will let you order two pairs of boots and return the one that doesn't fit as well as long as you don't wear it outdoors.  Other factors like width and volume can only be determined by trying them on.

Personally, my longer foot is 28.3 or 28.4 and I use a mondo 28 Mountain Slope.  I should have my local shop stretch the toe a little but I haven't gotten around to it.

[BlueB]

9 hours ago, Stefan Bajic said:

My foot size is 26.9cm (not sure if I should round down or up in this case? 

If your foot is very voluminous or wide, go 27. If normal, go 26.5. The number is inside, the outer sole number is irrelevant. 

Lots of modern boots have moldable liners, so you can make them fit, even if they feel too tight at first. The shell can be blown in critical spots, too. 

[SunSurfer]

@Stefan Bajic to help you understand why you might want to lift or laterally tilt your bindings.

 

[TimW]

Apart from the fact that we don't shift our weight heel to toe, another problems with shifted sidecut asymmetrical boards is that the stiffness of the board does not shift with the sidecut. The result is that the heelside nose is short but stiff, and the toeside nose is long & soft. Neither are satisfactory.

So it is a crappy solution to a problem that does not exist.

[Aracan]

Apart from what the previous posters said about buying very old equipment: I owned a Scott Strike for years. It was a different vintage, but very similar to the one offered. I am of similar stature, and if I could give my past self one bit of snowboarding advice, it would be not to waste time on that board.