Hands Down

[JohnE]

I know this has been discussed many times on this forum but I've been thinking more about it:

Touch the slope or not?

Long ago when I first started to learn to carve my mentors told me to not purposely touch the slope because: a) You could injure your hand, wrist, shoulder etc. and b) It can lead to bad form and c) It will ruin your gloves.  

The absolute best carvers I have seen touch the slope only occasionally. So I have tried to emulate them and do the same. However, there are many carvers much better than me who put their hands down on every turn. 

 I don't touch the snow and last season I realized that maybe until I do learn where that line is where the "centrifugal force" is trying to upright you -vs- pulling you into the slope, I may never be able to get my board at a high enough angle to the snow to really carve well. 

My goal last season was to touch the snow and find out what that is like. However, my "Lizard Brain" (self-preservation) is very strong and would always override my conscious brain to try it. So I never did. 

Do I need to just force myself to put a hand down and see that there is no "cliff" there and find out what it is like to have that centrifugal vector pull me toward the slope? 

Thanks in advance for all of your assistance!

[Corey]

It's like training wheels. If (when?) you lose your edge, there's less impact. 

Just make darn sure you're not reaching for the snow. That's a recipe for bad body positioning. 

Risk does go up though. Snagged ruts (@big mario!) suck and try to rip your arms off. 

[SunSurfer]

When you get low enough the snow very much comes to you and it can be one hard to find a place to put your hands where they don't touch the snow.

James Cherry made a suggestion of holding a length of stretchy shock cord between your hands to keep your hands up and in front but have some freedom of movement as a drill for working on higher edge angles but without touching the snow.

Lots of potential ways of mitigating the consequences of touching down. I'm still in a club of one with"knuckle draggers", hand armour based on skiers punch guards but heavier duty and with more coverage. They are designed to slide across the snow when I touch down. My Hestra gloves bought in 2015 are still pristine despite being used every season since.

[Pat Donnelly]

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I think you’re mistaking putting your hand down as having some sort of centrifugal force.

That’s almost entirely your body and board positioning. And lowering your hand will almost certainly mess that up. 

[crackaddict]

3 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

James Cherry made a suggestion of holding a length of stretchy shock cord between your hands

Actually, that was Martina's idea.  I was taught the "Tray Drill" where the rider holds an imaginary tray to focus on keeping the shoulders level, Martina's Czech coach in the 90s had them hold a piece of rope for the same purpose, and to keep the hands from flailing around.  The shock cord came later when I forgot my string and took the cord out of my mitten for a client to use.  This one allows a bit of flailing for balance but reminds the rider to bring the hands back together between flails.

 

5 hours ago, JohnE said:

Do I need to just force myself to put a hand down and see that there is no "cliff" there

Yes you do!

But try to resist the temptation to reach for the snow.  Sound paradoxical?  Reach for the snow with your lower body (knees and hips) but pull that inside shoulder up away from the snow. Crunch in the opposite obliques to make this happen, keeping your shoulders level with the horizon.  Now you've got the right position for higher board angulation and the snow will magically come to you.  When you're ready to put your hand down, just extend at the elbow!

[pow4ever]

face down a** up that's how we like to carve  .
Joking aside - try it; touch/pet the snow, slap the snow hard.  I self identified as very rigid and rule following; that's been a determent for my carving progression....

finding out what work for you; experiment, "Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers".

This whole endeavor is support to be fun...  along the journey some how i forgot about that.
Following dogma is great until it isn't....

[Odd Job]

Touching under-age ice crystals is bad.

Btw, if you just suicide flop over, the board will likely carve. Even works on a GS board.

Edited November 6 by Odd Job

[Corey]

10 hours ago, Odd Job said:

Btw, if you just suicide flop over, the board will likely carve.

In dreamy Colorado snow, yes. The harder/crappier stuff demands a bit more finesse. 

[Jack M]

On 11/4/2024 at 7:25 PM, SunSurfer said:

When you get low enough the snow very much comes to you and it can be hard to find a place to put your hands where they don't touch the snow.

This.  Truly, you do not try to put your hand down - you let the ground come up to you.  When you're carving well it just happens.  If you bend over and reach down for the snow you won't be carving well.

A 100% perfect by-the-book instructor would tell you never put your hand down.  But... we all do it.  When the snow is right there anyway, why not, and it's fun.  The most important thing is that you really shouldn't put any weight on that hand.  It should just be a feeler.  Like a motorcycle racer's knee.

Be warned - putting weight on your hand or using your hand to try to "save" a carve that is losing edge can lead to serious injury.  Like a dislocated elbow or shoulder or torn rotator cuff.  Unfortunately I know this.  Shoulder surgery is a 12 month recovery.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/917266686249499

[philw]

It depends on your style. You can certainly touch the snow if you want; this isn't skiing, there are no rules of what constitutes good form.

My own thing, on hardpack, is more front arm held close and down near front boot top, and rear arm also held close but up to the chest. That's a combination of Westcott and Terje, I'm told, not Fawcett, who is more of an arm-out / hand down guy on hardpack. Look at his videos and he's doing fine with hand dragging. But his arms are more active than I'd want mine to be, perhaps as a consequence. I actually rode with him the other season and didn't notice the style of those videos; perhaps he's hamming it up a bit for the camera.

In deep powder no one's watching and the concept doesn't really make sense. Sometimes you're in the snow, other times you can touch it as it goes past.

I think the dangers, as pointed out, are that you might bend at the waist when you shouldn't; you might end up flailing your arms a lot; and you might hurt yourself.

[softbootsurfer]

If you Race and touch the Snow, it slows you down...if you don't race who cares, as it is just an individual expressing themselves, personally I find the Track is visually distorted when I touch, I take a lot of photos of Tracks, I would add I have a very bad deformed Thumb from touching years ago and not having it addressed by a doctor...

[pow4ever]

On 11/5/2024 at 7:27 PM, Odd Job said:

Touching under-age ice crystals is bad.

Btw, if you just suicide flop over

you sir are a word smith!
under-age ice crystal, death flop LOL...  how you come up with this?  so creative!

This goes without saying - practice in a control environment.
Like in surfing touching/feeling the tube/snow is a surreal feeling and part of the experience.
things slow down and you are just in the moment.

when condition is good
my hands are relax; palms face forward and just use my fingers to feel/glide through the surface - almost as if i walk through field of wheat/lavender...
/
when condition is not so good (rut, bump)...  hands at boot cuff, heel) or "Wave your hands in the air. Like you don't care"

Funny 5-6 years ago after couple weeks in Co; feel pretty great about my progress.  i went to local hill and first run shatter my perception... lol reality check is a good thing. 
  

[ShortcutToMoncton]

To be perfectly clear and summarize, putting your hand down is not inherently bad. If it was Benny Karl wouldn’t do it in every race turn and I hear he’s pretty decent. 

But most people (and especially myself) tend to lean down slightly when they do so, which as James said destroys your form. I always carve HB so much better and more consistently when I keep the inside arm high (shoulderish height) along with the outside arm at front ankle bone. Whenever I find myself struggling I often realize I’ve gotten away from that. Just concentrate on that and don’t worry about the snow. 

Edited November 9 by ShortcutToMoncton

[noschoolrider]

On 11/7/2024 at 1:29 AM, philw said:

You can certainly touch the snow if you want; this isn't skiing, there are no rules of what constitutes good form.

It's safer to keep your weight and the pressure on your equipment so I don't recommend forcing yourself to touch any body parts.  However, touching occurs naturally in high-end snowboarding and skiing.

[barryj]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:12 PM, JohnE said:

Touch the slope or not?

The SB Legend,  Chris Carrol said "Don't Pat the Dog"!   Even made a video with that title to dissuade that......

but personally I found learning/having EC technique has helped me Not drag a hand when I'm not Euro Carving.  Obviously it helps having softer conditions here in the Sierras compared to the Ice coast to apply/learn EC.

I'm very particular of the slope degree/groom/temps when out for a day dedicated to making EC turns.   Because of my over analysis/commitment  when doing EC. I have a much better understanding of the joy and risks of dragging anything in the snow.

Just my 0.02.....

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

Hand Management ! 

[st_lupo]

On 11/4/2024 at 11:12 PM, JohnE said:

 I don't touch the snow and last season I realized that maybe until I do learn where that line is where the "centrifugal force" is trying to upright you -vs- pulling you into the slope, I may never be able to get my board at a high enough angle to the snow to really carve well. 

^^^That sounds like a crutch.  If you try to touch the snow with the intent of using it as a supporting member (even as a backup) you are going to almost certainly going to wreck your body stacking and develop toilet butt and you'll never get the edge inclinations you are seeking.  Not to mention if you put significant weight on that hand you risk loosing the whole arm (see point a. in your first post).

If you think about it, the line where centrifugal force is holding you upright by balancing gravity pulling you down... you are already doing that!  Unless you are on the world's slackest cat-track, each carved turn (probably any skid) is already an exercise in balancing centrifugal force and gravity.  There is no magic to this, but I think what you are experiencing is that getting lower on the snow, with higher board inclinations, gives you a _much_ smaller margin for error (balance, speed management, body position, angulation, sight-line, snow conditions, ...).  To get to where I think you want to go, it is just practice, practice, practice (with an unhealthy dose of impartial self evaluation).   I first heard it first from Corey (paraphrased, with a slight modification): when you are getting really low the experience feels like the ground coming up to you, not vice-versa.  Your hips and knees should get in the way before anything else.

You wanna really rail turns? Reach for the boot cuff or toes of your forward foot with your outside hand.  Do this all the time until your torso stacks up correctly on reflex.  

If you eventually find out that the ground has come up to hip level, its a simple thing to skim the ground with your soon to be trashed gloves.