K2 alchemist, excavator? Jones flagship? Bataleon? '3D" shapes??

[Eastsiiiide]

I'm curious what folks round here think of these boards.  I'm planning to demo the K2s later this season, and I'm curious how ppl from a carving background feel about the 3D base tech on bataleon and quite a few others now.  I see so much raving about the Jones flagship, for instance, that I have inevitable FOMO.  But pure softbooters by nature have different standards of 'performance' so I take all the talk with a grain of salt.  Are people round here playing with these newfangled board types and finding them exciting? 

I know there has been discussion before about 3D shapes, particularly bataleon, but it's been a few years, and the K2s haven't been discussed at all.

I have fun playing around in the soft stuff with my K2 eightyseven (volume-shifted, surfy style), I just keep wishing it was longer--155 is supposedly 'long' for a volume shifted board at my weight, I beg to differ.  Despite that, I find it surprisingly stable at high speeds on decent snow, yet nimble enough to navigate the chops and moguls with some effort on the very-steeps if I want to.  Am I in love with it, no.  It's fun, I like it, but I'm shopping around for something I'll like even more.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Edited February 9, 2023 by Eastsiiiide

[roch]

Bataleon 3d shape creates this mess of no edge grip and as you engage your edge you will find 2 different side cuts they are good for people learning park but for carving they are a mess 

I rode an evil twin for about 3 years and after switching back to traditional camber with a flat nose and tail have not touched my evil twin. 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have a 2020 Flagship and I like it quite a lot.  But I didn't buy it to be a carving board, if I want to carve I will get out my hardboot gear.  Having said that, if I'm on the groom it does fine although it is pretty soft and the sidecut is short by our standards (9.3m or something like that). 

Take my advice with a huge grain of salt as I don't have any other soft boot boards to compare it to. It is my first softie setup in 3 decades.

[barryj]

Your in Cali,  so you must come  up to Tahoe and if so you owe yourself the Life Changing opportunity to Demo a Moss Snowstick from Tahoe Sports Hub...........they have the Whole Lineup.....but  start with the U5 model.

It will do everything your considering and even more than you can imagine!  Really, if I had to give up/sell my other 6 boards and  only allowed 1 board my Moss PQ60 would be it!

It loves the pow but wants to carve....all on the same run!    Trust me....It's an OMG experience!

http://www.mosssnowstick.com/

 

 

[kitejumping]

As far as carving goes, I rode a flagship before I had any doneks, and compared to for example my burton boards at the time, it carved pretty well for a "standard" commercially available board.  With that being said the stiffness of it even though it is rated as stiff is a toy and feels like a flexy beginner or park board compared to my current donek setup.  It's a nice board relative to other standard boards but doesn't compare for carving vs any dedicated carving board.  I also had a storm chaser and mind expander with the more aggressive 3d spoon shape.  They were both pretty fun in the powder and on groomers you could spin around butters with pretty much no effort vs a camber board.  Both of those were great as dedicated powder boards but the sidecut radius was too tight to really enjoy them carving at any faster speeds. 

[Eastsiiiide]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:46 AM, barryj said:

if I had to give up/sell my other 6 boards and  only allowed 1 board my Moss PQ60 would be it!

Wow this is a compelling endorsement for a brand that wasn't even on my radar--thank you!

What it comes down to is, what is a softbooting setup for, in this group?  For some, and increasingly so it seems, softbooting is becoming a straight up replacement for hardboot carving.  But for most that are still firmly in the hard boot camp, my read is that soft boots are for a distinct activity, often taken up after the groomers are tracked out, snow is thawing in the afternoon/spring, or when there's powder to be had.  

A third category I see is an all-mountain, and perhaps social experience.  This is when I'm out by myself, or usually with friends, especially friends on skis, just going here and there on the mountain.  Let's do cornice, let's do that double black diamond, let's hike over to that tree run, let's do the backside, what about some jumps, let's see who can clock the fastest speed on that chute, let's lap this long blue run a few times... 

So to me the quiver includes 3 main categories: powder, all-mountain fun, and technical carving.  Jumps and park are for the pre-orthopedic generation, much to my churlish envy . It seems that the tech has gotten to the point that you can conceivably do all three categories on either soft or hard, with debatable compromises, particularly at either end of the spectrum.  (Time was, my categories included backcountry, which basically meant I wanted the board to be as light as possible and I wanted to wear the same boots up and down, but I haven't been doing backcountry these days, and anyway tbh I felt like I could use just about any board/boot/binding and have a pretty good time going up and down a big mountain, and have switched between hard and soft boots on the same mountain on back-to-back days--in the end it was more important to think about what boots I wanted to be climbing up in than snowboarding down with.)

In the group of folks that aren't trying to replicate or replace their hardboot carving rig with softboots, the softboot board is probably looking to be all-purpose, while also at least decent at carving, because it would just be annoying to hit a nice groomer and feel like you can't rail an edge when you want to.  

Thus I think this discussion is as much a board-review question as it is a "what do you actually want from your softie board?" question. 

Feedback about how the 3D shapes can be a "mess" for carving are thus quite salient, thank you.  I would add to this some scuttlebutt I got recently from some guys who work in a repair shop, who said the 3D shapes are much harder to tune correctly, and they cited the Jones boards specifically as great to ride, but hard/impossible to repair.  When I asked what's at the other end of the spectrum, the first brand out of their mouths was Neversummer.  Anecdotal data points of small sample size, but still...

For boards like the K2 alchemist that are 'way stiff' and 'for advanced riders' according to the dominant paradigm, I am wondering if, to the crowd that frequents these forums, this equates to a board that is acceptably not noodle-y and a good choice for 'all mountain fun' by our ilk, *OR* is it pointless to have a softboot board that's trying to be a carving board, when you could instead be going further afield to designs that will give you an experience quite distinct from what you can have with your hardboot carving board.  It's a personal choice, and I'm wondering where people fall on this spectrum.  

Do you want your 'other' board(s) to be totally distinct from your alpine carving gear capability, or have some overlap?

[philw]

My advice would be to ride a lot of different boards and find what works. 3D has been around for a long time; I've not tried the new stuff [yet], but it probably won't be taking over in slalom racing anytime soon. I'd say you're less likely to find a particularly wide range of use for such a board. The 3D Fish is as popular as the old Fish was in powder; I don't think it's much different there, although I'd guess it'd ride worse on hardpack if you encounter that.


[quote]It seems that the tech has gotten to the point that you can conceivably do all three categories on either soft or hard, with debatable compromises, particularly at either end of the spectrum.[/quote]

The current generation of boards (specifically the Hometown Hero for me) is entirely capable of carving circles with ease, whilst also being my choice for helicopter powder. That's a first for me, ever. Perhaps that happened because soft booters are re-discovering how to carve turns, and modern soft boot boards therefore support high speed carves better. My board has a 6.6m sidecut, but it'll ride any radius I like, and unlike previous boards doesn't fall apart at resort-illegal speed. 

To me the trick is not to ride like a hard booter, and particularly not to use "hard boot" boards which are too specific, like a track bike or something. I happen to use hard boots, but like a split boarder, that's not the defining thing.

[barryj]

9 hours ago, Eastsiiiide said:

the quiver

There were a lot of questions in that post...... I'd say don't overthink it.   It all depends on what  you want in your quiver and what your wallet can cover.  Your in the Sierras, so a pow board is logical but typically doesn't get used daily.  For me 1 Pow board, 1 Slalom, 1 GS, 1 daily driver/work, 1 EC is the armada currently.....but it took me many years and riding many boards to get to this refined list. The list does change, sometimes based on geography, sometime based on money. 

Additionally I ride hardboots on all my setups........more out of convenience from board to board.  As much as I wanted to like softboots and the newer Step-On softboot setups, they feel like I'm in flip-flops compared to hardboots. 

Going from hardboots to softboots is a step down in control/performance imo....but I can see going from traditional softboots to Step-Ons is a step up in performance for those guys.

 

6 hours ago, philw said:

ride a lot of different boards

I agree with Phil, get out there and get after it to see what you like and what works for your wallet and your ski area....

[dhamann]

9 hours ago, Eastsiiiide said:

So to me the quiver includes 3 main categories: powder, all-mountain fun, and technical carving.

alternatively ability, terrain, interests. I don't think it has as much as to how the rider intends to ride the board as it does to what is the goal you want to achieve from a board. the boards don't ride themselves and will not suddenly give the rider a particular skill set. but whatever, let's go quiver shopping:

ability: what is the body athletically able to do and what skills do the rider have and wish to achieve

terrain: what region are you riding, hard surface, soft surface, variable surface, how wide/skinny are trails, crowds... the majority of the time you plan to ride.

interests: do you prefer strictly directional hardpack carving, side hits, switch riding with freestyle aspects, take it easy while riding, skid and side slip some of the way down, ride balls out hard every single turn, drawn to steeps and challenging terrain, happy killin it on the greens, race style, bomber style, etc.

considering the objectives above, selecting a board(s) should come fairly easy; especially with the help of a board builder. of course we all like to bridge the gap to some degree (or not), but having boards with a focus and intention will help the rider enjoy the ride a lot more. boards and equipment for this sport is an investment! most folks reading this are likely interested in equipment and not just another toy to add to the collection. although there are some decent toy boards out there on the market. just understand what you're getting. enjoying the ride is the objective for me and knowing what's under my feet and the capability of the board and what it excels at most is where the enjoyment comes from. I think most commercial boards are shades of gray. even the focused ones, which is focused a lot through marketing. they can all carve and turn circles, etc but do you want to ride hardpack bell to bell and can the 7m radius board achieve that for you? something that falls into the ability and terrain objectives.

one time at band camp i had a rep approach me about gilson boards. these are boards with a raised edge. are these guys serious? that was my first thought. waxing, tuning, maintenance, etc. wholly edge burn. my thoughts remain the same. just not for me given the focus of the terrain and interests of my riding. god speed to others. curved scooped noses are great for the pow float focus they are intended for, but present some challenges aside from that single focus.

most riders with some sort of skill already know what they're focus and interests are while riding, but don't always know the questions to ask. i guess that's why we're here. what size, sidecut, shape, flex, construction, cost is best? answer these questions, buy it and we'll see you next year for another one with a little tweak or completely different board to fill the void. it's a rabbit hole one must explore to find what works best for them. understanding/feeling the many different characteristics, riding a lot of boards and focusing on the differences will result in a quiver that's right for you. it takes time; just keep saving.

for myself, it is firm hardpack the majority of the time so my quiver has this focus and intention to enjoy any flavor of hardpack that may come my way and how i may want to approach the day of riding. although almost half of them can be ridden "all mountain" anything.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I still don’t understand what the OP wants this board for. He’s posed some questions about what the hardboot community in general wants out of a softboot board but that doesn’t matter. What do you want to do with this board?

Personally I think there’s a lot of overthinking on gear here. When I went shopping I looked for boards that were recommended for what I want to do (all mountain freeride), picked one and reckoned if others liked it I could also make it work. There’s probably 10 other boards that would have worked just as well.  Whatever you pick, you will have to adjust to and make work. 

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

On 2/7/2023 at 10:17 PM, Eastsiiiide said:

I'm curious what folks round here think of these boards.  I'm planning to demo the K2s later this season, and I'm curious how ppl from a carving background feel about the 3D base tech on bataleon and quite a few others now.  I see so much raving about the Jones flagship, for instance, that I have inevitable FOMO.  But pure softbooters by nature have different standards of 'performance' so I take all the talk with a grain of salt.  Are people round here playing with these newfangled board types and finding them exciting? 

I know there has been discussion before about 3D shapes, particularly bataleon, but it's been a few years, and the K2s haven't been discussed at all.

I have fun playing around in the soft stuff with my K2 eightyseven (volume-shifted, surfy style), I just keep wishing it was longer--155 is supposedly 'long' for a volume shifted board at my weight, I beg to differ.  Despite that, I find it surprisingly stable at high speeds on decent snow, yet nimble enough to navigate the chops and moguls with some effort on the very-steeps if I want to.  Am I in love with it, no.  It's fun, I like it, but I'm shopping around for something I'll like even more.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

I have the k2 excavator. Wanted the Alchemist, it wasn’t available at the time. Did some thinking and I really needed a powder specific board, watched a couple reviews on the Excavator, and I went for it. Really happy with that choice. 
 

I’ve got 7 Heli trips under my belt, and have taken allot of boards on those trips. Haven’t had the Excavator in endless powder yet, but have had some inbounds powder days, and it’s the best powder board I’ve ridden compared to Jones hovercraft, prior spearhead, Burton fish and Kessler ride. All those other board I mentioned worked great, this one has the 3d nose, and I think that helps. 
 

The excavator also rips the groom. Was just at Jackson Hole, in between dumps, so 85% moguls , some groomers and cold. 
worked fine on most of the Jackson Hole blues, which imo is the steepest groomed terrain I’ve ever been on. Wish I brought one alpine set up on that trip !  If I wanted to screw around with my rear foot which was set at 3 degree positive, say up to 9-12 degree positive, maybe I could have Schralped a black diamond or two. 

[NByrne]

I’ve had a few Jones Flagships.  Great freeride boards and ok carvers. Ultra Flagship is definitely stiffer and carved a little. The underrated Jones carver for me is my Ultra Mind Expander. Particularly in steeper less predictable conditions