Time for a Boot Upgrade! Whats Better than Deeluxe Track 425 Pro. ??

[barryj]

I like my black with green tongue Track 425's, (BTS and Fintec heels/probably 6 seasons on them)  and felt they gave me a noticeable performance improvement over my old track 700 red shell/white tongue boots but recently  I'm popping open my rear foot instep/ankle buckle  from it dragging in the snow on my toe side carves.  It had happened a couple times a season most every season but now its happening almost daily!    The buckle looks and feels solid with no wiggle or odd angle compared to my front foot boot and it tightens up like usual.  The only difference is that rear foot boots instep/ankle cable that connect to the buckle snapped this month and I replaced that but it was and still  happening before and after that.   

So was thinking to upgrade to the latest edition blue/orange 425 Pro's but thought I'd ask the Sages first.....

Is there another boot that I'll see/feel another step up in performance beyond the 425's??

Happy Holidays Everyone!

   

[Jonny]

I haven't had that issue with my 425s but I did years ago on a very tired pair of Race Plug ski boots. I slipped a neck-gaiter over my calf before putting on the boot, then did the boot up and slid the gaiter down over the offending buckle. This was the ankle buckle not the one over the instep but on snowboard bindings it would work there too. Didn't pick up much snow and kept the buckle from unlatching.

[barryj]

17 hours ago, Jonny said:

neck-gaiter over my calf

Thanks J,  That's an interesting fix I might try.......

I have none of the usual Deeluxe heel lift issues but want to stick with my step-in TD3's so the hot topic MS .951's are not an option.     

I did read all of the MS 951 thread.........interesting stuff.

I'm not sure it's worth changing up boot systems when I'm pretty happy with the 425's heel lock when mostly hoping/looking for another  quick performance upgrade. 

UPZ RCR look interesting............  or new 425's.     Will have to think about that.......

Edited December 25, 2022 by barryj

[lonbordin]

Pretty much everything... ah, stuck on step-ins... that does shrink the list of candidates down to UPZ or DeeLuxe.  Both seem to be in the we aren't going to change or even upgrade the plastics we use phase of development.  There are really no significant differences in the current versions and the previous versions.

Mountain Slope or Atomic Backlands with the Phantom lever are quite a step forward in performance with the .951 being the performance carving (look at all the podiums) and the Backlands/Phantoms being the better than a SB setup (soft snow/splits/pow).

All that are left are S5 from Korea which I ride and are very niche... and really a hybrid of existing molds.  For me they were a good buy, and they offered a fit for my flippers.  I will likely jump on the MS train for my next pair of boots and spend time with a qualified bootfitter.

I'm not sure there are any other new choices other than modified ski boots available today.  

Bending down to clip in keeps one young.  

[nextcarve]

I just switched from Track 700 to UPZ RC11. They are clearly narrower at the ankle, fit more snugly than the Deeluxe and feel more direct. But I had ankle pain and had to open the buckles after every run (not so with the Deeluxe). Therefore, I gave them to the bootfitter, to widen the shell where the ankle bones peek out (hope that helps). Otherwise they're comfortable, I like the more direct feel and they are still not too stiff.

The reason why they have five buckles is not clear to me and as the new RCR shows four are enough even for the racers. I even find it a drawback, because you have to fiddle more and at times they even clash and may pop open (also ankle buckle).

I never had that problem with the Track 700, but I think you may have the same problem with your Track 425, because when you ride toe side, you bend the ankle of your back foot more than the front one and the buckles may clash and open up. Probably this happened, because after some time your BTS springs got softer and gave you more play. Maybe it helps, if you tighten the upper screw a bit more on your BTS.

Edited December 25, 2022 by nextcarve

[barryj]

3 hours ago, nextcarve said:

you bend the ankle of your back foot more than the front one and the buckles may clash and open up.

Hey NC

Maybe that's happening........but why just now?  almost daily?    I'm running  F3/R6  cant disks on my TD3's. 

 The problem buckle, my instep buckle on my rear 425 boot is worn down to the base metal for over half it's length..... from dragging it through the snow on toe sides.

  

[Jack M]

I’ll just say if you’re bending over to mess with buckles every run anyway, going back to standard bindings is really not a big deal.

Bonus: no more step-in icing issues around 32°F. 

[barryj]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

Bonus: no more step-in icing issues

Ha!   I just fixed all my step-in icing issues on  my 5 boards/sets of SW SI's!!!

The problem buckle isn't every run.........it's a one time per day of riding at most.

I would love to try the MS .951  but I got too many sets of SI"s to go about changing it all up just for a new boot thats not step-in!

Looks like new 425's  will have to do.......

[Odd Job]

Yeah, don't go UPZ. Floppy POS with insanely weird boot ramp angles compared to the rest of the competition.

Mountain Slope variant or Track 700 or 425 would be my choice.

My next boots are likely going to be mountain slopes if I stay on hardboots.

[Jack M]

I think UPZ is the second most popular boot on World Cup.  Out of the box, the non-RCR models are softer than T700 both forward and laterally.  Getting stiffer tongues and Intuition liners fixes this.  Many people report better heel retention in UPZ than T700.  I don't know much about the 425.

[Odd Job]

I just saw that other thread on the RCR's that look like MS. I have to take a closer look.

[Aracan]

I am quite content with UPZ, because I prefer a lot of fore/aft flex and can work around the ramp angle with a wedge under the front binding. To each their own, I guess.

[barryj]

2 hours ago, Aracan said:

can work around the ramp angle with a wedge under the front binding

What's is (UPZ's) "ramp angle" issue?    What bindings you running?

[lonbordin]

2 hours ago, barryj said:

What's is (UPZ's) "ramp angle" issue?    What bindings you running?

The design of the UPZ tucks the heel of the boot further forward which in turn raises the ramp angle of the boot. 

Most riders either embrace the increased ramp angle or offset the angle via their bindings. 

[lonbordin]

@barryjPerhaps you would like to look inside the boots?

Boot Size/Volume Study (bomberonline.com)  Anyone have the additional pictures that used to be in this article or were they just in the BOL thread discussing the article?

Rest assured that UPZ and DeeLuxe are still using the exact same molds that were used to make those sacrificial lambs.

And I like to add that I forgot a manufacturer of alpine boots, G-Style out of Japan. @b0ardski is completely right, Thanks!  G-Style does come with a step-in option... it's in the catalog I linked.
 

Edited December 27, 2022 by lonbordin
how did i miss that, need moar coffee.

[b0ardski]

g-style did have step'ins that work like my old Nitros

[Aracan]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:29 AM, barryj said:

What's is (UPZ's) "ramp angle" issue?    What bindings you running?

The UPZs have a rather steeper inbuilt ramp angle than is desirable for most riders. This is especially notable on the front binding. I use a wedge under the front to partially neutralize that angle. My bindings are F2 Race Ti (bail type).

[Jarcode]

Toe lift is mandatory on the front foot for UPZs. The ramp on those is insane, but you can also get away with slightly lower binding angles than Deeluxe shells due to the smaller sole length. UPZs also seem to be even more difficult to walk in.

I agree with @Jack M that bail bindings aren't really enough of a chore to warrant step-ins. The clear upgrade here would otherwise be the .951 shells. G-style's speed plates could also be an option for MS boots, but I've seen little information on them outside of Japan and would rather trust bails.

From my experience, Deeluxe offers terrible heel hold and needs considerable liner modification to resolve this. UPZ still looks like a better option for those wanting better heel hold, unless fitting a very bulky ankle/heel (disclaimer: I have only tried the Track 325 and 700).

[barryj]

5 minutes ago, Jarcode said:

Deeluxe offers terrible heel hold

Well......all this discussion on heel hold makes me wonder what's too much??

Considering I'm a size 11.5 in most street shoes/boots and I sized over a full size down to a US 10/mondo 28  in my 425's I never felt  I had much heel movement, maybe a half inch both heels, but what is too much?

[Jarcode]

14 minutes ago, barryj said:

Well......all this discussion on heel hold makes me wonder what's too much??

Considering I'm a size 11.5 in most street shoes/boots and I sized over a full size down to a US 10/mondo 28  in my 425's I never felt  I had much heel movement, maybe a half inch both heels, but what is too much?

To me, any movement is too much. When my boots are completely buckled down on my MS boots, my heels are almost completely locked in place. I'm using Zipfit liners, the stiffest Race Department shells, very thin foam heel lifts inside of the boot to reduce volume, and some extra foam pads just under the shell tongues to make the instep really snug.

In my T700s, I had a small amount of heel lift after adding lifts inside of the boot to reduce volume, and padding the hell out of my intuition liners. I always maxed out the instep buckle.

Switching to MS was eye opening, so much more responsive and I feel like my heel-to-toe transition improved because I don't have to adjust to my foot shifting slightly in my boot.

On both shells I unbuckled after every run. I also found that the cuff on my T700s was just not tight enough in general. I will however point out that the MS Race Department shells are excessively stiff for most people and hindered my off-piste riding. Go for the ST or WC flex instead.

[Ladia]

UPZ steep ramp on front foot never felt right for me.  Currently  I am using AT boots or zero degree ski boots which are pretty much Raichle snowboard boots made for skiing. MS  would be to risky to buy without  check them up, which is pretty much impossible. I guess I am stuck what I have.

[dhamann]

i was in a track 325 deeluxe, M30, bts, stock liners for a couple/few years. i probably would've been better suited in a M29 deeluxe with a thinner liner like an intuition plug, pro etc. Although I never really noticed heel hold being an issue/problem on a regular basis. i just wanted new boots because i felt the deeluxe were limiting me. plus i wanted to buy some new shit. after doing a shell fit test with UPZ i got some new rc12, M28 over the summer. stock liners. I wear US 12 street shoe, foot measures 28.8cm on larger foot, no sock, skinny feet/shins. rice method mold with toe caps to at least help mold my feet to the inside of the liners and create a toe wiggle area. the liners did have a little squirm inside shell while riding, but manageable on a temporary basis. pretty snug but not stuffed. heel hold noticeably improved. i couldn't get too aggressive with my riding due to injury; not advised. however, when i concentrate more on the riding (don't fall, stay on edge, head on swivel, don't hit anyone or anything, etc.) the squirm becomes almost irrelevant. almost. an oven molding with the liner and a handful days of riding may remedy this minor squirm issue further. tbd. I used F2 race titanium bindings, toe riser block for front toe boot and two stacked cant wedges for rear heel. my one test day proved that i'd probably feel more comfortable with a higher riser block at the rear heel binding as well. could be due to a '90's tuck knee and bad habits, but... think that'll work for me. when i get some td3's i'd probably do 6 degree front and 3 rear to accommodate the UPZ ramp angles. then maybe test a 6 degree if possible to see if there's a worthy difference if the 3 degree isn't working like i had planned and want to split hairs. the UPZ feel more fluid flexing/riding than a fighting flex both fore/aft, torsionally and laterally than the deeluxe. they just seem to work better. lower liner/cuff could play into this. could be that new gear syndrome too, but glad i made the switch. also happy i didn't go the xc12 route and stuck with the rc12. they seem to be plenty playful enough combined with the security/support to push the limits when the stars align. tested on a '94/'95? oxygen supercross and sg 163xt titan. +2 funny feeling to walk in; slippery when on. a shell fit is key prior to the investment of any boot. little tweaks can always be made to accommodate the individual rider after proper size is determined.

[barryj]

48 minutes ago, dhamann said:

a shell fit test

Uh.........Is this still the 1 or 2 finger method.....or something newer?

1 hour ago, dhamann said:

never really noticed heel hold being an issue/problem on a regular basis............... plus i wanted to buy some new shit.

Yeah..... what he said!

[dhamann]

1.25 finger, barely 1.5 tight, but not 2. Skinny fingers. Or 1 sausage finger. Fits good with stock liner for me. 2 fingers is too big. One is kinda race fit oriented but daily rider manageable just like your m28 deeluxe probably. If upz, likely down to m27 but may need a thinner liner. Confirm cm feet measurements as you know. I was in between 28/29 mondo. Went with 28 and if too tight, I was gonna get a thinner liner but m29.  Ya, m29 liner in a 28 shell. If still too tight, punch shell. All minor tweaks but sizing I know is correct after confirming with shell fit of the manufacturer’s boot being purchased. Molding with toe caps and riding for a day sold me on this being the way. Snug but not stuffed. Compromise being that I guess that the plastic is harder in super cold conditions, walking can be slippery, binding changes (set and forget), buckle clash, likely change liner at some point, no hiding with bright colors, etc. Always gonna be compromise. A bit of trial and error but once they’re set, you’re good. Til you find an excuse to buy more sht again anyways. Adjustments and options with upz are all there as long as you get the right base boot to suit your needs. Minor tweaks for at least a five year investment or longer. 

[barryj]

On 12/25/2022 at 3:23 PM, nextcarve said:

, if you tighten the upper screw a bit more on your BTS.

Hmm....I'll give this a try next groomer day!

Thanks  NC