New member interested in softboot korean carving

[mallory]

Howdy y’all. I wanted to say hi and introduce myself. I caught the softboot carving bug last season and caught it bad. So bad that I’m still thinking about it in the August heat. 

Because of my duck stance and size 11 boots, I’m stuck on super wide boards, my daily driver of which is a Donek Knapton Twin 157cm x 29cm with a 8.7m sidecut. At the end of last season, I added some Now O-Drive bindings which were amazingly responsive but I only got a couple of days on them before the resorts closed.

This upcoming season, I want to try double-positive binding angles and I think I want to try to learn the Korean style of softboot carving. I figure if I can get comfortable with double positive angles, then I hope two things will happen: 1) I can try some boards that aren’t so stinking wide, and 2) I am one step closer to trying hard booting.

So, why am I posting exactly? I am fairly certain that my technique will need to change substantially as I move from +15/-6 to e.g. +35/+15. Here around Park City, UT, there’s not a whole lot of options for local k-carving instruction, which means I’m kinda stuck trying to figure things out from the internet. I came across this set of k-carving instructional videos and I’d like to ask the wisdom of this board whether the techniques described are worth pursuing, or if I’d just be picking up bad habits I’ll have to unlearn.

Anyhow, here’s to an eventually awesome winter, and I hope to meet some of y’all at MCC this February.

cheers,

mallory

[SunSurfer]

@Emdee406

Edited August 23, 2022 by SunSurfer

[SunSurfer]

You may have more resource close to you than you know. Martin Drayton (linked in post above) may still ride Park City, carves softboots and hardboots, and if my memory serves me well is/was a snowboard instructor. Martin was also a World slalom skateboard champ at one time.

https://www.youtube.com/user/emdee406

https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/athlete-biography.html?sector=SB&competitorid=14298&type=result

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2016/5/classics-fastest-time-to-skateboard-50-cones-slalom-430897

[crackaddict]

Hey @mallory,

Thanks for the link to those K-carving instructional videos.  They're somehow simultaneously very interesting and very boring...  There's not much for good carving instruction in English on YouTube.  

The Asians seem to use extreme stances.  An American softboot carving stance is generally between +9/+18 and +21/+36.  You'd have to go toward the higher end of that range if you're booting out a 29.  Downsizing your boots and/or using risers can also get you on a narrower board.  

Hardbooting will get you on a narrow board real quick.  It's not so inaccessible.  If you're willing to spend the money for good gear, put in the days and look like a freak, it's just the most incredible feeling.

[BlueB]

Welcome! 

At the angles you describe your technique shouldn't change much, unless you want to. Just focus on aligning the body to your angles, not to the long axis of the board. 

Also, at those angles your board will not become much narrower - its the overhang difference that occurs between 15 and 6 degrees (forget the +-). What would really change is the quality of your heel side turn. With forward angles you'll be able to drop the hip, instead of the bum, towards the snow and drive the front knee into the turn more. 

[Leszek Gawron]

Those binding angles do seem extreme, but in fact are quite comfortable. 

Switching from duck stance to a such extreme positive angles takes a little bit of time and effort. You might feel very unbalanced and some things will be really unintuitive. Once you switch - there's really no going back. I ride electric longboard like this, surfskate also. 

The aformentioned K-carving videos - accidentally I am the author of english and polish subtitles for those. The author, Sean, struggles with english, but is very keen to discuss. 

After the subtitles have been added it turned out that those videos are mostly watched in Korea and ... Poland. This style of softboot riding is almost unknown here, which is why we created a Facebook group to promote it and share ideas.

I've been able to correct only 5 out of all of these videos. If you want more - just let me know. It's nice to put some effort if somebody makes use of it. Since then I have switched from k-carving to softboot which is why I lost the interest in K-carving a little bit. It is an excellent entry point for newcomers though.

[slapos]

12 hours ago, mallory said:

I caught the softboot carving bug last season and caught it bad. 

 

there is one video that I like to recommend to all people starting their carving story:

this is  related to alpine snowboard technique in hardboots - imho same positions apply, even though the angles on the softboot board are lower. 

bit of guide to softboot setup:

http://canmanski.com/my-setup-for-soft-boot-snowboard-carving/

12 hours ago, mallory said:

2) I am one step closer to trying hard booting.

 

if you are already thinking about it, there is no point in waiting .  if you are pondering buying an SBX or Softboot carving machine in the back of your head - save yourself some costs and go straight to hardboots.

i regret that I found out about hardboots so late in my snowboarding carreer.

good luck!

Lukasz

Edited August 23, 2022 by slapos

[scottishsurfer]

I'm of the everything tossed into a blender school(bit of BASI/CASI/Asian/Hard boot styles) of carving but my best bit of advice is to make liberal use of the youtube 1/4 speed setting and study good riders very closely and watch what there doing. The other bit of advice is that like everything repetion is key i've probably spent over the fabled 10000 hours practising and honing my turns. Have paitence it wont come overnight but delight in small gradual improvements youll see over time

[mallory]

Thanks for the tips, friends!

I had the genuine pleasure of meeting Martin last winter, he's awesome and has real passion for the sport and for teaching others. This year, I'd like to invest in as much instruction as I can manage...I'm one of those dummies who has too many years of baked-in, bad habits from casual riding. I'd like to think I was making progress undoing those habits last year, hopefully setting the stage for making some meaningful carving progress this upcoming season.

@slaposI am hesitant to jump straight to hard booting because of two things: since I've never tried serious double positive angles, whether my knees will feel great is a big question mark, and secondly, I just really don't like ski boots. I have fully custom-fitted ski boots (Tecnica Mach 1 MV 120, punched out, custom insoles) that I use when I ski with my kiddos, and every time I use them, the discomfort after an hour or two is enough to make me wish I was riding. But if it turns out my knees can handle the angles, I think I'd give hard-booting a go. I guess I'd also like to be better at softboot carving before taking the plunge as well, so it's probably just a matter of time.

 

[ibrussell]

Park City and SLC both have some really good swaps where carving stuff shows up from time to time.  A couple years ago the were lots of 1deg ST1 & 2 boots (Storm Trooper 1 & 2)almost new for $50.  These are from a Raichle 325 mold with DIN soles.  I've found the Raichle's with the wrap liners more comfy than any ski boot.  Good place to look   I have some Raichle 124 softer hard boots  I could loan you at MCC for demos if you're still looking at that time.

[slapos]

14 hours ago, mallory said:

 

@slaposI am hesitant to jump straight to hard booting because of two things: since I've never tried serious double positive angles, whether my knees will feel great is a big question mark, and secondly, I just really don't like ski boots. I have fully custom-fitted ski boots (Tecnica Mach 1 MV 120, punched out, custom insoles) that I use when I ski with my kiddos, and every time I use them, the discomfort after an hour or two is enough to make me wish I was riding. But if it turns out my knees can handle the angles, I think I'd give hard-booting a go. I guess I'd also like to be better at softboot carving before taking the plunge as well, so it's probably just a matter of time.

 

re your skiboots - doesnt sound like they are fitted to your feet well. 

I always had discomfort in the softboots (driver x) - with proper fitting in my plastic (sorry mountainslope ) boots, they are the most comfortable boots i ever had, easily riding for the whole day.

there is many factors to consider - each shell fits a foot in different way, so maybe your current shell is jut not your type. You would need a bit of advice there or at least try it out a few shells if you have an opportunity. 

MCC might be the place to do this (wink @ibrussell) - especially if you can grab your liners with custom insoles from your skiboots, I am sure somebody will let you use their shells for a moment or two togehter with a board.

re your knees - not sure where this comes from. Duck stance carries imho many more risks for carving, especially if you start rotating your torso and hips to the nose of your board - i.e. Ryan Knapton toeside. dont get me wrong - he is one of the few duck stance riders that I admire, but the gossip says he is double jointed or something, so that type of rotation doesnt bother him.

double positive stance will feel more natural for carving and doesnt cause extreme angles on your knees imho.

do some carpet carving till summer lasts and feel it out.

if you have a slackline available somewhere - might be good to see some of the benefits of posi posi stance vs duck by trying to balance on slackline in both of these positions.

re softboot carving - is it only me or more people think that carving in hardboots is easier, as the boots are much more responsive and dont have slack?

i know quite a few people that learned on hardboots how to carve and went back to softies.

Whatever you choose - good luck on your journey!

Edited August 26, 2022 by slapos

[1xsculler]

My UPZ 10s are extremely comfortable and I’m going to start next season riding my new Nidecker 158L at 35/20 instead of my usual 55/55 on my Thirsts and Coilers. I tried a little Korean carving with this setup at the end of last season on a 159  Lib Tech Dynamo demo and it went well except the tighter turning burned my quads out more quickly than usual. 

[mallory]

Generally speaking, are liners similar enough between ski boots and hard boots such that using my ski liners in a hard boot might work for the first season (or first few weeks at least)? I only have a handful of days on my ski boots and using those liners would at least save some money for the hard boot experiment.

[mallory]

Also, y’all are doing a good job of convincing me to try hard boots anyway  Any recommendations for a solid board that’ll be wide enough for my size 11 feet? My soft boots are just over 31cm long. For equipment, I’d like to get stuff I’m not going to outgrow immediately, and of course I’m happy to go with something used. And any recs on hard boots? I have fairly wide feet with kinda flat arches, medium volume overall. 

[1xsculler]

A lot of questions and things to consider and many on this forum much better to deal with this but I will offer my $0.02 as time permits. 
I wear nothing smaller than Mens size 13 Nikes, my foot measures 28cm and UPZ RC 10 mondo 28 with a Deelux 131 liner, with minor modifications make my boots nearly as comfortable as bedroom slippers. I’ve never worn softboots and went directly to my UPZs from ski boots. To be continued. 
 I have a fairly narrow and low volume foot and a narrow heel and that is partly why I prefer UPZs over Deeluxes (I’ve tried both and size 28 is correct for me in both but my heel wouldn’t stay down In Deelux). It sounds like you have a higher volume foot so Deelux may be better for you and you may prefer their thinner 141 liner as well. 

Back around 2000 I used my Solomon SX91 ski boots for carving and they actually worked pretty well. 

 

[b.free]

4 hours ago, mallory said:

Also, y’all are doing a good job of convincing me to try hard boots anyway  Any recommendations for a solid board that’ll be wide enough for my size 11 feet? My soft boots are just over 31cm long. For equipment, I’d like to get stuff I’m not going to outgrow immediately, and of course I’m happy to go with something used. And any recs on hard boots? I have fairly wide feet with kinda flat arches, medium volume overall. 

Get UPZ, they are exactly what you need based on your description, mondo 28, size 312. I have a size 11.5 and they sit perfectly on my feet. Any model would do it, just dont buy very old ones. RC10, RC11, RC12 are all 5 buckles. Even 4 buckles will do it. Easy to buy and easy to sell if you don't like hard boots.

Edited August 28, 2022 by b.free

[slapos]

23 hours ago, mallory said:

Generally speaking, are liners similar enough between ski boots and hard boots such that using my ski liners in a hard boot might work for the first season ...

The inner boot between ski and snowboard hard boot is the same.

Work out your foot size on cm:

Then come back with results, maybe the alpine collective can recommend proper shell size.

@b.free might be correct that 312 shell might work for you In upz.

If I was you I would get used snowboard shells from upz, as they have heel under heel design, which Leads to less footprint.

If you buy upz you can also buy adapters for din toes and heels:

https://upzboots.com/product/up-toeheel-set-ski-din/

For starting board: look for something with relatively short turn radius: anything between 11m to 15m would be good (since you are in the US - plenty of doneks, priors and coilers will do the trick for you)

Main rules are:

Less radius means less speed required to carve on the edge, but also means less time on the edge before you are going uphill.

It will take a bit of time to get used to the speed, therefore something more then 15m I wouldnt recommend before you learn how to put your board high on the edge right at the beginning of the turn.

Waist width - this boils down to personal preference. Less waist will mean bigger angles and shorter edge to edge time.

For start look for something approx 20 cm in waist.

There is plenty of tech articles worth looking at for binding and board set up:

https://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding

http://www.alpinecarving.com/

This will point you to a STARTING point for your set up. 

Everything else will be an enjoyable journey with ton of tinkering and experiment to find something that works optimal for you.

Cheers

L

Edited August 29, 2022 by slapos

[1xsculler]

You have two entirely different styles to consider, IMHO.

Bomber style on a 170ish length, 20ish cm waist board at about 55/55 angles OR what some are calling Korean style on a 160ish, 26ish cm waist board at about 35/20 angles.

These are very, very general specs and are based only my pretty uneducated opinion.

I’m going to start this season trying a little Korean style on a new Nidecker 158L Blade in my UPZs at 35/20  

Watch Softboot Carving Worth Watching on this site for what I’m calling Korean style.

 

[Odd Job]

I'm going to think cost, unless it is prohibitive, isn't a large factor, Mr IOS.

Getting better at softboots will make you better at hardboots and vice-versa. The technique is 99% the same except you're on stiffer boots.

Eg. 0/0 stance angle heelside, will feel very close to 45/45 stance angle heelside, the changes in where exactly on your heel you will balance on to your brain will feel almost the same once you get very proficient in both.

Buy one, buy both. Whatever. Don't skimp too much. But you also don't need wc level equipment to have fun though.

[jsil]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:00 AM, Leszek Gawron said:

The aformentioned K-carving videos - accidentally I am the author of english and polish subtitles for those. The author, Sean, struggles with english, but is very keen to discuss. 

After the subtitles have been added it turned out that those videos are mostly watched in Korea and ... Poland. This style of softboot riding is almost unknown here, which is why we created a Facebook group to promote it and share ideas.

I've been able to correct only 5 out of all of these videos. If you want more - just let me know. It's nice to put some effort if somebody makes use of it. Since then I have switched from k-carving to softboot which is why I lost the interest in K-carving a little bit. It is an excellent entry point for newcomers though.

Thank you for adding English subtitles to those videos. I found them earlier this year through a post in snowboardingforum and have watched them quite a bit. I'll watch anything you add subtitles to as this style of riding really speaks to me. I honestly think no one watches them here because they are so hard to find. No North/South American really knows to search for "k-carving" and they are so deprioritized in the search results due to the language that they would never pop up in generic searches.

BTW, when you say you switched from K-carving to softboot, what does that mean? Isn't K-carving a type of softbooting or are they totally different?

Also, what is that Facebook group? I'd love to join.

Thanks!

Edited August 30, 2022 by jsil

[1xsculler]

Is K Carving Korean Softboot Carving Worth Watching which I’m assuming can be done on hardboots too?

[Leszek Gawron]

7 hours ago, jsil said:

Thank you for adding English subtitles to those videos. I found them earlier this year through a post in snowboardingforum and have watched them quite a bit. I'll watch anything you add subtitles to as this style of riding really speaks to me. I honestly think no one watches them here because they are so hard to find. No North/South American really knows to search for "k-carving" and they are so deprioritized in the search results due to the language that they would never pop up in generic searches.

BTW, when you say you switched from K-carving to softboot, what does that mean? Isn't K-carving a type of softbooting or are they totally different?

Also, what is that Facebook group? I'd love to join.

Thanks!

My mistake - I have switched to hardboot of course.

 

the group is polish speaking, but you'll find a lot of video content attached which might help (or at least get you even more hyped): https://www.facebook.com/groups/3883041431757025

[Alexey]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:06 PM, slapos said:

there is one video that I like to recommend to all people starting their carving story:

this is  related to alpine snowboard technique in hardboots - imho same positions apply, even though the angles on the softboot board are lower. 

 

Do you know the rider name of this video ?

[slapos]

2 hours ago, Alexey said:

Do you know the rider name of this video ?

It's you isn't it ?

[Alexey]

yes. its me.
after 8 years the ride has been changed to: