RCrobar Posted April 16, 2022 Report Share Posted April 16, 2022 Hi Johnasmo Can you explain how the hard boot and soft boot Contra SCR are the same, how they are different? Thank you in advance. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted April 19, 2022 Report Share Posted April 19, 2022 (edited) On 4/16/2022 at 11:08 AM, RCrobar said: Can you explain how the hard boot and soft boot Contra SCR are the same, how they are different? Sometimes there is no difference. I made so many of the original alpine Contra (V4) programs in different lengths and radii that some were used on softboot carvers. If you ordered a softboot carver, with the emphasis on "carver", it's likely the same shape as for hardboots. All you get is a much wider board and a wider stance. If you ordered a boardercross or freeride oriented board, however, then they differ. Where the alpine Contra sweet spot is being tilted high on edge, BX and FR riders aren't going to be laying out EC-like turns as much as professed softboot "carvers" pursue that. Bruce had been doing progressive 11-13m for BX. When I analyzed the CNC program, though, it was clear the sign making software didn't do what he intended. I scaled a fairly wide looking version of a 14-11-12-11-14 Contra shape to 11.9m radius and mixed it 50/50 with a 11-13 clothoid progression to make the first Contra BX shape. Target radius was 11.9m because that is the depth equivalent of a clothoid 11-13. Also created a Contra BX 10.9m program. The Contra BX programs were in early 2020. The first mention of "freeride" was when Bruce said Mark Fawcett wanted a new "freeride" board. I don't think he ever ended up making it for Mark, but I designed that shape to be less progressive than the BX and with more radius differential, but still have the tighter radii spread wider into the tip and tail like on the BX. Around that time I also mixed the alpine and BX Contras 50/50 to make a specialized SB for softboot carving. And then with a hookier tail it became the SB2. I think Bruce marks these as CFR on the sidewall. Turns out the SB2 and the alpine AC are actually very close to one another. Funny how that worked out. Incremental refinement to alpine and softboot shapes arriving at a similar place. Edited April 19, 2022 by johnasmo spelling 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted April 19, 2022 Report Share Posted April 19, 2022 Adding links to graphs...Contra BX shape Contra FR shape Contra SB vs. SB2 Contra AC vs SB2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted April 20, 2022 Report Share Posted April 20, 2022 Here's another nostalgic graph from two years ago: Contras Spring 2020 Seeing them all together lets you see how the apex of the curvatures was shifted outward based on how tight the radius was. It also gives some idea of how many different Contra programs we generated by that time. Some of the outliers on there are noteworthy, like @crackaddict's 194 x 19m alpine board, or the 165 x 16 SB, whose effective edge I then fit into a NC program from JJA to make James' TCX 166 x 16m (because Bruce can't press wider than 30cm at widest point, but JJA can). Bruce and I don't know if JJA actually used the program we sent, or went with his own sidecut design in the end, but that's the kind of stuff what was happening two years ago. I never knew who ordered the 182 x 17.5m; anything over a 14m seemed exorbitant to me. Chester ordered a Contra KK 187 x 17.5m this year, but no feedback yet as I don't think he got a chance to ride it before knee surgery sidelined his season. So there you have it, full transparency on Contra sidecuts. Anyone can measure them physically, so why pretend they're trade secrets, eh? Better to have free and open discussions about them and decide what you want to try next. Even if you can't get on Bruce's build list, Donek and Winterstick do it all by CNC too. P.S. James, I think Bruce may have used the Contra BX 11.9m shown in previous post on your 2022 169 Contra CFR 29 x 12m. He treats the BX/FR/SB programs sort of interchangeably under the CFR heading. In practice, they're only subtly different from one another. 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted April 21, 2022 Report Share Posted April 21, 2022 Spring 2020: Contra BX: Contra FR: Contra SB vs. SB2: Contra AC vs SB2: https://imgur.com/a/E4ST69g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted April 22, 2022 Report Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) On 4/11/2022 at 3:06 PM, pow4ever said: @johnasmo Would you be able/willing to redo this multi radius graph with other curves? I'd like to see a single SCR, a Race SCR (REV/Kessler/Whatever), and a common VSR to be able to visually compare those to the Contra AC curves. Thanks so much for being so open with this... Did you just start open sourcing sidecut?! I think it's a thing now... super cool. Edited April 23, 2022 by lonbordin spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted April 23, 2022 Report Share Posted April 23, 2022 We are told the Contra sweet spot is high on edge. That tells you that the flex of the board is a very significant part of the shape of the curved path the board will follow. SCR is only a part of the story. The linked thread is a discussion of the interaction between SCR and long axis flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted April 28, 2022 Report Share Posted April 28, 2022 On 4/22/2022 at 11:25 AM, lonbordin said: I'd like to see a single SCR, a Race SCR (REV/Kessler/Whatever), and a common VSR to be able to visually compare those to the Contra AC curves. Since these graphs are of radius over length, a single SCR will be a horizontal line of constant radius. For an apples to apples comparison, lets compare shapes against a stock Kessler 180 GS. From the published numbers I have on it, 11.5-19m, 17.2m avg, 18mm taper, 70mm setback, the shape I calculate that it has is 11.5-19-17.5 as shown in the below comparison graph. I don't think the K boards are a pair of clothoid curves because the averages and tapers don't work out that way. But for comparison, I've included a 12-21-14 GS using clothoid transitions, and both Contra KK and Contra AC shapes. All of them modeled to have 1670mm effective edge and 20.28mm sidecut depth which corresponds to a 17.2m radial SCR. So, apples-to-apples. 180 x 17.2m sidecut comparison What I like to look at is how these shapes differ from radial. It is my belief that differences between sidecut induced flex and the shape of the carve in the snow affect pressure distribution along the base. Sidecut induced flex is highly affected by core flex and snow compaction, but sidecut profile plays a role. The board would like to form a certain flexed shape, but it must follow the path in the snow instead. Different parts of the base will be bearing different loads in order to make that happen. 180 x 17.2m radial diff comparison In the above graph, you can see that the among these boards the Contra AC differs the least from radial and the Kessler GS differs the most. The K180 can reasonably be expected to require more weight shift to keep weight were traction is being demanded. The Contra AC can reasonably be expected to ride more like a radial all-mountain than a race board. My spring slush riding certainly bears that out, yet it seems equally happy aggressively free-carving hardpack. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted September 24, 2022 Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 On 4/19/2022 at 10:36 AM, johnasmo said: The first mention of "freeride" was when Bruce said Mark Fawcett wanted a new "freeride" board. This one? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted September 26, 2022 Report Share Posted September 26, 2022 I’d be curious where things went sideways there. Fawcett now has a board with a company in BC called Kindred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CravingCarving Posted September 27, 2022 Report Share Posted September 27, 2022 (edited) On 9/25/2022 at 9:05 PM, ShortcutToMoncton said: I’d be curious where things went sideways there. Fawcett now has a board with a company in BC called Kindred. I just looked at the Kindred page. There are only 2 sizes available for the Mark Fawcett model (158/163) and the largest model is the 163 - 28 cm waist. Bruce currently constructs 27-27.5 cm as his widest with his current set up. So more than likely this was just a logistics move. Plus Kindred offers stock and custom, so they can build an inventory of the MRK5(name on the board) to have and sell, something that Bruce isn't interested in doing. Edited September 27, 2022 by CravingCarving Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted September 27, 2022 Report Share Posted September 27, 2022 Fawcett's model with Kindred doesn't look anything like we commonly think of as a SB carving board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CravingCarving Posted September 27, 2022 Report Share Posted September 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said: Fawcett's model with Kindred doesn't look anything like we commonly think of as a SB carving board. It's written up as a backwoods powder board rather than a carving board hence the nose and tail design, but wide and able to handle carving on groomers according to Fawcett. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted October 2, 2022 Report Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 9/24/2022 at 3:43 AM, daveo said: This one? Do you have a date on that picture? I know Bruce made Mark a softie board he called a Slice earlier than 2020, pre-Contra, as that was the "freeride" build he was talking about replacing in 2020 after Mark tore out an edge on this "Slice" model. I believe Slice referred to slots cut in the titanal meant to relax torsional stiffness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 2, 2022 Report Share Posted October 2, 2022 7 hours ago, johnasmo said: Do you have a date on that picture? I know Bruce made Mark a softie board he called a Slice earlier than 2020, pre-Contra, as that was the "freeride" build he was talking about replacing in 2020 after Mark tore out an edge on this "Slice" model. I believe Slice referred to slots cut in the titanal meant to relax torsional stiffness. Yeah mate that sounds about right re time window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slabber Posted December 13, 2022 Report Share Posted December 13, 2022 @Jack Mmoved my query to a new thread - re-reading through thread and even my own earlier comments, seems a 166 Contra may be just fine for me given it looks like there are several riding the shorter length Contra. And then a bunch riding much longer ones as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 2, 2023 Report Share Posted February 2, 2023 a long over due/update review (not that it's necessary; as Bruce's product speak for itself) - Contra 165 23cm all mountain (focus on carve first, all mountain second) took me a long while to learn how to ride it. Guess it's one of those once seen; can't be unseen deal? like the "arrow" in FedEx logo. Get it on edge early and it hold an edge like no tomorrow. Didn't notice the extra width. sweet spot is "much smaller" compare to k168/other board (for me) but once the reference point is established it's a great/fun ride. condition - west coast/UT hero snow (a bit soft/bump in the afternoon) on to wogococo tomorrow; can't wait. Should be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 2, 2023 Report Share Posted February 2, 2023 19 hours ago, pow4ever said: on to wogococo tomorrow; can't wait. Should be fun. TLDR: Coiler Contra - I am now a believer. it rips. put about 27k vertical on wogococo today. I thought the contra all mountain was good. Not sure how but wogo/Contra is even better. that 3cm waist size make flicking the board lightening fast. no drama, all day comfort. want to make tight turn in narrow/steep? no problem. in afternoon bump/chop/crud - lazy big turn - piece of cake. i think it's worth to "learn"/"adopt" how to ride contra shape. it just took me a long time to figure out how to do it lol. better slow than never. Now i am glad i have quiver of boards to choose from. each one serve a range of purpose/condition. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 What is the latest and greatest in Contra Development? I seems to remember an ASMO version? but couldn't find info on it at the time. When there are no snow to be had at the North East. time to think about hoarding more gears to alleviate the crave... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkaholic Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, pow4ever said: When there are no snow to be had at the North East. time to think about hoarding more gears to alleviate the crave... Sounds like that will be the time to make another appearance in CO to ride the gear you have. Spending on travel to use what you have is better than attaining more wall decorations. ink 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 31 minutes ago, inkaholic said: Sounds like that will be the time to make another appearance in CO to ride the gear you have. Spending on travel to use what you have is better than attaining more wall decorations. so wise!! to my boss: i need to go to Co Every Sunday for "religion purpose" have to be physically in the office soon..... https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/d7e04aad-2b11-4b30-974b-17836da1b1ed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 hours ago, pow4ever said: What is the latest and greatest in Contra Development? I seems to remember an ASMO version? I rode a .4 mm AsmoCarve version at MCC for 3 runs. I emailed Bruce to order one when I stopped for lunch. The immediate word that came to mind was "intuitive". The board seemed to work with anything I threw at it. It worked with centered riding, worked if I loaded the nose, anything. John suggested a sweet spot for loading was just ahead of the front binding. It made a large variety of turn radii depending on how you loaded it. It also ate up the skidded-out lower section of Turner. Fascinating board! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 Yep, the AC shape is the latest version I’m aware of. Maybe ask Bruce if he’s tweaked the shape any further. I got the .3mm version a year ago and love it, but Bruce seemed really pleased with his more recent .4mm versions. I’m trying to set up a back-to-back with a K168 but can’t quite get it scheduled. I just got some Apex carve plates to experiment with! First day was super weird, I think the extra height & weight threw me off and I was also on new slopes, just did not seem to get a feel for what the board was doing. Looking forward to more testing for the rest of the season! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 aha... asmo-Carve, Contra AC. We need a wiki page put in Google - site:forums.alpinesnowboarder.com AsmoCarve https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/yFR4oLLIxMs?feature=oembed Corey/John A/Dredman are not carving mortal. Might take me a decade this time to figure out AC lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd Job Posted February 19, 2023 Report Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 2/17/2023 at 6:54 AM, pow4ever said: What is the latest and greatest in Contra Development? I seems to remember an ASMO version? but couldn't find info on it at the time. When there are no snow to be had at the North East. time to think about hoarding more gears to alleviate the crave... Isn't the demand for distributed systems skills pretty much everywhere to the point you can almost command the salary, location, and maybe work schedule you want? Income tax in CO is a flat 4.4% no matter what your income is. In NY State, an 11.7K salary (yeah, below min wage?) gets you 4.5% state income tax. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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