Contra Contra

[pow4ever]

This is a great thread to show that snowboard/engineering is but a series of compromise.    
caveat emptor  

people have been riding steep, not ideal snow, from 1st to last chair before Contra and likely long after something better come along. 
I am all for If Contra/any shape/technology can make the barrier of entry lower and get more people ridding steep and while enjoy the whole day.  Democratized alpine snowboard if you will.  However i just want to set expectation that it might be the case for most but not all.

i like steep and the non-steep; like to ride for most of the day; i like go into a turn in a modulated control fashion.  Took me a long while to not just throw my weight into the next turn (feel violent and sloppy to me(personal preference)).  

I personally like the idea of one board that does everything but like most i have a quiver/fleet.  I have more time to internet carving than actually be on the slope.

i am a huge fan of Bruce/Coiler.  He is just awesome sauce.  ooze cool in a super star bur approachable manner.  The bang of the buck ratio for Coiler is through the roof.  As much as I like Coiler the brand/philosophy/business practice/passion and etc; some time the palate crave something more exotic. 
Similar to car: Corvette is a super car; how much it cost is secondary.  We hit a diminishing return at certain price point.  Not arguing for the price of that 1 kessler = 2 Coiler.  Maybe Bruce should jack up the price  
Hey that's supply/demand/capitalism. 

This is from a while ago from talking to Bruce.  it's not an exact science to dial in the flex.
weight isn't the only factor - at 185lb one can range from super fit to not.  
Looking at normal distribution - if your weight fall into the norm.  A stock board will work well.
For those that's outside the curve - super strong/heavy, or light weight.  They will benefit the most from custom build.  There are some added benefit such as centering the inserts based on stance width, setback, personal preferences of the nose shape.  The more you know what you want/like.  The more our artisanal builder can tailored it.  On the other hand; those extra "feature" can become a handicap.  it's a struggle (in a good way).  if my technique is solid i should be able to do it all.  All these exploration/experimentation is what keep me coming back for more.  If one day i can carve effortless on all the steep runs; that might be the day i hang it up?

As good as all these board builder we have: they don't always get it right the first time.  Working with the same board builder on a baseline and tweak from there is the pragmatic way to go.  
I am a slow learner but i did learned that no board is magic - Contra/Kessler.
Time on mountain and riding the trail/condition you want to ride will get you there.
I am not discounting tuning, dial in setup, different board those extra polishing is the different between competent rider and those who make it look effortless.

I am just a lemming blindly following the trend.  sometime it worked out well some time not so good.
Those who can appreciated the subtle difference i envy of them.  Hope one day i will get there.

[Shred Gruumer]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:02 AM, ShortcutToMoncton said:

For me it’s hard to argue with the proposition of buying two custom Coilers instead of one stock Kessler. 

Never pay retail.... I don't think Coilers are $500

 

17 hours ago, Odd Job said:

A stock Kessler is usually a waste of time and money. 100% on the Coilers. I think.

Not... Put the pipe down too... 

 

Huh.. Below sale... This less than a thirst...

Kessler shows up for sale... There usually gone before the reply... I see a lot of Coilers for sale... Just sayin. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Shred Gruumer

[Odd Job]

Stock Kesslers are not made by Hansjurg. They ride differently. 

Just because they sell fast doesn't mean anything.

A GS spec board is a proper freecarver. Most freecarvers are scared of GS, therefore it won't sell quick.

 

Let's put it this way. 
I'd gladly pay $2k USD for a virus over a stock kessler at $1k USD  if forced to make a choice and part ways with my money.

Same for F2, etc....

Edited March 13, 2022 by Odd Job

[johnasmo]

9 hours ago, slabber said:

Curious on this point - were they all made for you / your weight?  But with varying degrees of extra or less stiffness?  Or some are boards built for others with a different flex number?  I guess that's the same thing - curious what flex / length you feel to be best for all around?

They were all made for my weight, but as prototypes with custom sidecuts, core profiles, and laminate combinations, they are part of discovering what the right flex measurement should be in the first place.  Bruce's flex measurement is a way for him to adjust a reference build in a consistent way, but first builds are unknowns.

Feedback from riding builds informs whether their flex numbers ended up being stiff or soft for the target weight.  I have a mix of stiffnesses not so much by design but because prototype outcomes are hit or miss.

His numbers are a measure of deformation under a static weighting.  Even boards with the same measurement can have different dynamic behavior based on the laminates.  T3 vs. T4.  Carbon vs. glass ratios.  S-glass vs. e-glass.  Four, six, or nine ounce weaves.  Unidirectional, bidirectional.  Rubber.  Bruce This mix has a lot to do with the feel of the board and whether it remains comfortable as the snow gets rougher.

[Jcar]

 

I received my Contra 166x19.5x10.5 in Dec for the 21-22 season.  I wasn’t able to get on it till my MCC 2022 trip.  On the first day of MCC we were greeted with 3-5” of snow over fairly firm chalky groomers.  Conditions were great,  but as you could imagine they went south very quickly with 100 carvers slicing it up.  This was my first full day on my 166.  Even though my eyes and mind were telling me the conditions were getting worse as the day went on, the board kept cutting through the surface crud and gripping the chalky snow underneath with ease.  I started to trust the board more than my eyes and mind.  This was a very strange feeling for me!  My mind kept telling me to hold back, don’t push it too hard the conditions are rough and choppy.  However the 166 had a completely different perspective on the conditions.  I really started to trust this board to hold an edge.  I’ve always been hesitant to push hard later in the day as conditions deteriorate.  As I started to trust the board more I started to push harder as the conditions worsened.  It kept holding more and more the harder I pushed it.

I heard over and over that the Contras likes to be ridden center weighted…. I find that not to be the case.  This board can be ridden where ever you need it, at any given time. Needless to say the first full day of riding on the Contra 166 really surprised me!  

 

The conditions on day two were way better than day 1, while day 3 was even better than day 2.  We had HERO snow!!  Day 2&3 brought out the nuances of the Contra.  I really started to become one with this board.  Conditions were so good that it allowed me to focus on my riding techniques without having to worry so much about what the board could do. It was all about me. I knew the board could do it; the only question was “ could I”.   If the board blew an edge and chattered out, it instantly became aware to me that my hips weren’t squared, or my shoulders were too open… it was my fault.  That really helped my riding, to keep me honest, and on it.  Don’t get me wrong this board can also be ridden lazy if desired.  It just depends on the terrain and the input you give it.  Day 2 & 3 were definitely confidence builders.

Day 4 was a completely new experience for me!!  The groomers were the best I’ve ever ridden!  I spent the morning riding with the PA Boys (Greg, Carver Bowlby, and Dolf Marche).  They took me outside my comfort zone, but at this point on my Contra I was willing and feeling confident.      We rode runs that in previous years I really struggled with.  They were narrow and steep and by turn 4 or 5 I was looking to check up because I was just going too damn fast, and started to skid out to keep my speed in check.  That was not my experience on my Contra 166.  Like I stated above, this board can handle being driven by a heavy front foot.  The steeper the terrain the tighter it can turn.  There were several times were I thought I was going into the woods, but if you load the nose and throw your weight over your front foot this thing turns so damn sharp it literally stands you back up and transitions you into your next turn.  This thing makes scary narrow steep runs into “that was fun, let’s do that again”.  I spent the rest of day 4 doing nothing but all the steep runs that I was afraid of in previous years..  By the end of day 4 I didn’t want to stop.  I was so comfortable on this board, my riding style actually changed.  I was able to quiet my upper body and keep my outside arm close to my body instead of it flailing, and wanting to touch the sky.  I felt smooth, quiet, and completely in control.  Even though I was pushing it to the max of my ability throughout day 4, I made it to last chair.  There was something about this board that I have never experienced before.  I became so comfortable on it that, I actually started to burn less energy even though I was still pushing hard.

 

I have never clicked with a board like I have with the Contra 166.  It did everything I wanted it to do, and I know it could do even more.

At 49 years old I will admit I’ve slowed down.  I no longer have a desire for speed.  What I want now is full C, cross the fall line turns with control, finesse, power and style.  Bruce’s Contra series gives me all that… so much so we’re building another one for next year, maybe a 160x19x9 or a BX Contra…. Maybe even both!!

 

[SunSurfer]

@Jcara Have you ridden your Nirvana or Superconductor since the MCC trip? Has your Contra experience improved your ability to extract performance from other boards? A new board teaching an old dog new tricks?

Edited March 13, 2022 by SunSurfer

[Jcar]

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

@Jcara Have you ridden your Nirvana or Superconductor since the MCC trip? Has your Contra experience improved your ability to extract performance from other boards? A new board teaching an old dog new tricks?

Unfortunately I haven’t even been out on a board since MCC.  As far as number of days goes this has been a dismal year!  
When I do get back out there I will definitely get on my other boards and see if that is the case. I hope this old dog has learned some new tricks!

[ShortcutToMoncton]

23 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

Never pay retail.... I don't think Coilers are $500

 

Not... Put the pipe down too... 

 

Huh.. Below sale... This less than a thirst...

Kessler shows up for sale... There usually gone before the reply... I see a lot of Coilers for sale... Just sayin. 

Agreed, I’m talking about I-carve semi-retail Kessler prices here. For a standard Kessler, not anything custom. I’m sure I could eventually find one cheaper if I kept searching eBay or the Sale section here. 

Of course I’m in Canada and shipping and taxes add up here. Whereas I can just pop by Bruce’s place on the way to the hill. Lowers the administrative overhead for all involved!

Another great four hours on the Contra today. I’m starting to really pinpoint some of the characteristics @johnasmo described. Starting my first day back on blacks out of sheer excitement was a dumb move for rebuilding technique but it accidentally allowed the board to really shine. I started out on some blues this morning and noticed that in comparison it does feel a little sticky at slower speeds when I’m being lazy about angulating or not really driving knees into the snow. 

Man does it ever grip. And that sudden turn initiation almost got me a couple times after I started getting tired. Reminds me of some good old Honda VTEC kicking in!!!! What a blast of a board. 

[slabber]

On 3/12/2022 at 3:34 AM, johnasmo said:

 

Contra Contraindications:
1) You don't like steeps.
2) You prefer to ease into turns. 
3) You only ride AM groom; you don't carve to last chair.

 

Re #1 - I don't like steeps today as I don't have the confidence.  Was tired yesterday riding at a different hill ( @loopback 's home hill Calabogie Peaks) and couldn't muster up the courage to set the edge as there some fairly hardpack/icy spots. Will a Contra help me overcome some of that reluctance to commit?  

Edited March 15, 2022 by slabber

[Mr.E]

As a guy that runs a bunch of sweet snowboards, err.. not really. Reluctance to commit is a brain issue, not a board issue.

But if new board courage gets you to tip it and rip it, it's a placebo well bought.

 

(PS- took me a bit to get comfortable, but I quite enjoy my Contra boards).

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah fancy new equipment won’t fix technique or ability. That’s a universal maxim regardless if it’s a snowboard, tennis racquet, mountain bike, cooking, etc.

If you can already do it, you’ll get a little better. If you can’t then practice is still the only answer. 

[slabber]

Yah, I was wondering if I would have greater confidence with the new tech board that has what I understand is better edge holding capabilities compared to my 20 y.o. burtons...  

[johnasmo]

I think a confidence inspiring board can let you progress your riding quite a bit.  That's been my experience anyway.  Whenever a new board lets me do what I can already do more confidently and easier, that opens more room push beyond what I was doing.  I can go to a new place and learn the techniques needed to operate there.

Time in the saddle is necessary to let your brain's defenses get accustomed to what is possible.  But you have spend some of that time pushing at the edges of your current boundaries if you want to expand them.  When a board has friendly manners at your current limit, then it's easy to spend a lot of time there and beyond, so yes, I think your Contra will help you overcome that reluctance to commit.

Be willing to change your style some.  Be aware that your style may change to meet the requirements of your new boundaries.  For example, the harder my Contra's let me push my riding, the less I touch the snow.  I'm squatting and angulating more, laying it out less.  Just a little trailing hand drag.  I'm more focused on managing my center of gravity relative to board tilt, keeping my body parts away from the snow, getting the board higher on edge earlier in my transitions.

There's been some mention of spooky slip sliding, but one of the things I think Contras do well is slarving/sliding while higher on edge.  That is, you can throw it into a bit of a slide and let it hook up.  Or when its icy and the your edge gives out, it skitters a bit and hooks up again.  Just put the board high enough on edge, weight the center of the board, stay balanced, and it should behave like a ski.  That's an equal part of what makes them confidence inspiring along with the edge hold when locked in a trench.

Some advice to work on hesitation -- spend time getting used to how it skids and engages on edge.  You've got to train your brain that it's going to be alright even if the carve doesn't work out as planned.  Adjust your form to squat down more, staying stacked low over the board, leaving more range of motion to deal with slipping.  Hesitation won't stop until you train you brain that carving down hill from the transition is safe.

 

[lowrider]

You have to commit any board made will call you on it if it senses  your fear ! (Your brain will make your body do bad things when you are not committed ) On ice shape edges and a plate will help.

[Xargo]

Sorry for spamming vids here but I'm so stoked about the progress I've been able to make with this Contra so wanted to share this vid from today where I managed to do my first set of EC-turns on a steep (33deg. slope):

One thing others commented was that the board turned pretty sharp when doing this kinds of turns. Note that this is a 247mm wide 16m SCR Contra. Next time to clean up those turns on some mellower slopes.

[pow4ever]

me and Contra(the WoGo version) finally clicked (only took 2 seasons).  i am a slow learner/adapter.
It's a bit disconcerting to hear/feel the "crunch" over spring thaw then deep freeze "hardpack" but the edge just kept on holding on.  pretty amazing stuff.  work equally well in spring slushes.  
Def required a different input than what i was used to but worth the journey.  Season ended for me but look forward to next season to continue the discovery phases with Contra.

[nekdut]

I haven't heard much about the segmented wogococo Contra versus a regular.  Has anyone done a back-to-back with similarly sized/flexing boards between these two designs?

[dredman]

As the Contra turns… the progression continues…

The Contra came first, then the Contra Wogo and we are now on the Contra KK and Contra AC.  @johnasmocould fill you in on the details of the KK and AC.  Some of the improvements from the WOGO, AC and KK have been incorporated into the whole Contra lineup.

The Contra AC 174 has amazing ice edge hold and a huge range of conditions that it is a riot to ride.  After riding the AC, I would say that segmented sidecut on the WOGO is not necessary.  The WOGO does have extra rubber to make it extra damp, but that can be added to any board.  

Coiler will be building fewer and fewer boards each year.  Getting on the list for a board and actually getting one will be more and more challenging.

The Winterstick Montucky and Donek Freecarve with Secret Construction are exceptional boards and I have had a great time riding them this season. They both are brilliantly constructed, very damp (if you want damp), forgiving and intuitive to ride.   Just ask for a @johnasmo sidecut profile when getting one built.

Most importantly, talk with whoever is building your new board, be really honest about your ability, conditions you ride in (steepness and run width) speed you like to carry, turn size, and fitness level.  All of the builders will help you get on a board that fits you.  

 

[GeoffV]

@johnasmo Can you explain the difference in the Contra’s?

Contra, Contra KK, Contrac AC?

I got mine mid season last year so I am assuming it is version one.  I suspect some of the differences that riders experience on the Contras will have to do with snow conditions, East Coast vs West Coast snow? The board rails on ice, but you have to get up on edge and commit. My goal next season is to work on my form and ride more relaxed. I hit 50 this year and can’t be dragging both hands on heel sides and twisting my back anymore. Goal is less hand dragging. @johnasmo It was certainly fun to chase you at Whitefish and what your relaxed and very efficient riding. 

 

[pow4ever]

lol... getting old isn't fun. i am "young-ish" age wise but all the abuse i put my body through come collecting in recent years.

 

1 hour ago, GeoffV said:

 My goal next season is to work on my form and ride more relaxed. I hit 50 this year and can’t be dragging both hands on heel sides and twisting my back anymore. Goal is less hand dragging. @johnasmo It was certainly fun to chase you at Whitefish and what your relaxed and very efficient riding. 

Same here/glad to see i am not the only one  -https://forums.alpinesnowboarder.com/topic/47536-is-relaxing-carving-possible/

but you look plenty relax/fluid to me 

 

[Colozeus]

I have two contra's. 184 14scr 19waist and a skinny 174 12.5scr 17 waist. Both have an added layer of rubber. I'll agree with most everything being said here. They both have amazing edge hold but they do require early angulation. I have experienced the weird slarving/sliding on the smaller one so perhaps i should detune. I haven't noticed much of a difference riding centered vs nose or tail. I do ride it more centered than my t4 174 nirvana. Overall, great easy rides. I actually call them my lazy riders. I can just angulate and sit into the carve and chill. Icy steeps, no problem. I'm actually a bit bored of them (and snosboarding in general) perhaps i need something that really launches me out of a turn. I think my next coiler will be a custom skinny nirvana with a tail that wants to hook and kill. 

[johnasmo]

On 4/8/2022 at 5:13 AM, GeoffV said:

@johnasmo Can you explain the difference in the Contra’s?

Contra, Contrac KK, Contrac AC?

I got mine mid season last year so I am assuming it is version one.

They are revisions to the sidecut profile.  My photo quota is used up, but if someone can post the following image from my google drive to this thread, you can see the differences.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZhQHlZt3CRsfX9Dx6ZI-LeuNnfE-oc99/view?usp=sharing

To make examples directly comparable to @GeoffV's Contra, which is a 174 with a sidecut depth equivalent to a 12.5m radial, I generated each as a 174 with 12.5m and 35mm setback.  The one labelled Contra V4 is essentially the first public generation of Contra.  It went through 2 prototypes and 3 iterations of the math being used to produce the shape.  Only I have a V1 proto, V2 was the second proto, and V3 through V4 are that shape but with different approaches to the math.  V3 using clothoid transitions and V4 fitting cubic splines against parameterized control points so that length and radius could be adjusted more consistently for each order.  Now I'm using motion equations to shape the curves, but that's a topic for another day.

KK is a hybrid of the original Contra shape with a traditional VSR as represented by a K168 shape.  I included in the graph what that shape looks like when resized from 155 effective at 10.8m to 156 effective at 12.5m.  The Coiler KK is roughly 60% Contra, 40% K168 shape.  The Winterstick "Montucky" version is 60% K168, 40% Contra.  The latest shape is the AC, based on my judgement from riding the others.  It's nose shape leans more to the original Contra but tail shape to the 60% Contra KK.

This is the era of CNC core shaping.  If you want a unique shape and can draw a graph of the radii along length that you want, it's relatively easy to get a custom shape.  I can help with the tool paths.

The sidecut profile sets the stage for Contra behavior, but the core profile and overall stiffness complete the story.  My KK and AC have similar close stiffness measurements, but the AC has a higher carbon ratio.  These cores complement each other well; my AC behaving as more stiff and aggressive and the KK being more compliant to caution with ice and low vis.

And from Winterstick and Donek builds, I'm seeing how the interplay with different camber, rocker, and torsion play a big role too in how the resulting boards feel.  It's important to remember that these are all custom builds for individual riders; there is no mass produced version.  Mileage may vary.  Bruce's 0.3mm full titanal construction, low camber, "+9" rocker builds feel the smoothest to me, but others may prefer to try non-metal options for more pop.  I prefer boring boards where I can turn up the excitement by choosing steeper runs.

[pow4ever]

   

[johnasmo]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:06 PM, pow4ever said:

   

@pow4everThanks for posting the image.
They are all 12.5m, the 12 on the Contra V4 is just a typo in the legend.

The higher radius across the middle is why we suggest downsizing the radius you ask for.  These will only turn like a 12.5 when tilted high, else they will cruise longer, like a 13+ as you weight mostly the center.  Shorter radius with longer board works fine with the Contra shape since the pressure distribution remains closer to the bindings (Hello Rad-Air?).

[GeoffV]

Thanks @johnasmo  for all the Contra breakdown and history.  Looks like I would have liked the Contra KK version better based on the profile, especially in the tail. I know BV was working on that concept next but hadn't started it yet when he built my version.