Contra Contra

[pow4ever]

warning:

Verbal/thought diarrhea

Me - no where near the skillset of carve machine like Jack/Geoff/John and so on.
Though I was getting semi decent 3-4 years ago on Donek Rev (inspired by BIgwave Dave’s build)
meaning I was able to link some decent turn on steep with both hand down on both front/back side.  I seems to recall what a good turn feel like.

Today I am Just your average gear chaser here.

I do see people rail on Contra/WoGo so likely it’s deficiency/incompatibility on my technique/style(or lack of it).

Been trying for 2 seasons on getting use to Contra/WoGo.  Here are my humble $0.002

Coiler/Contra seems to like high angulation (even pressure to the whole edge) to initiate the turn.

Donek/race board like nose stomp to get the turn going and result in high angulation.

It might not sound much -

On Contra/WoGo

When I ride compress; apply constant edge pressure; WoGo/Contra reward you: make steep/icy trail “cake”; almost boring.

That’s not how I like to ride.  Kinda like Nissan GTR it’s a technology marvel/high performance but punish bad habit.

I like to ride “tall” and complete unweight at the end of the turn and be all over the place and weight into the turn (and not being precise about the even weight distribution).

When Contra shape edge pressure is not even weighted; it does something funky (at least for me).  Every turn there is a hesitation but once I am on edge it’s fine.

Bottom line for my narrow case:  the edge transition seems to be issue are for me.  When I am on edge; it worked great.  But during the edge transition “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark”.  I can’t quite place it.  But I am enjoying the journey so far.  It force me to be more consistent which is a good thing.  But for strange reason I don’t like consistency.  That wild 2 stroker quirkiness seems to be the “je ne sais quoi” that’s missing for me.

Again this is like a board that’s way above my skill level and it’s the rider not the board.  There are occasion when I given input to the contra and it gave me the result I wanted but she is doing it with a dirty look than go “yea that’s how I like it”

[bigwavedave]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:24 AM, GeoffV said:

 I really struggled to turn (not carving), it was a huge struggle to side slip it. I experienced the same thing at Bridger Bowl and Big Sky last year conditions with some fresh snow. If you are not carving on the Contra it fights you hard if you try to side slip or "slarve" on it. It performs great once you get the thing on edge but fights you if you are not carving linked turns all the time.

Sounds like an edge tuning issue. Like @johnasmo said, base bevel of .5°-.7° and light gummy de-tune at contact points nose & tail.

Unlike John I use 2° side bevel on my everyday boards and 3° on my plated ice boards.

[Ladia]

Well interesting.  I felt similar as Geoff described. How are edges on new Contra set up? I don’t have a gauge to measure it. All my Virus boards were 3 and 1 degree. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Last week Bruce said my edges were at 89 and base ground flat with no bevel or detune.

I didn’t ask for anything, so would assume that’s his standard approach for all boards.

[pow4ever]

re - tuning  could be plausible

Another humble 0.0002 cents:

i know plenty of Coiler owner just ride the factory tune.  
shouldn't have that huge of impact; if that's the case seems more a bug than feature.

[bigwavedave]

3 hours ago, pow4ever said:

re - tuning  could be plausible

Another humble 0.0002 cents:

i know plenty of Coiler owner just ride the factory tune.  
shouldn't have that huge of impact; if that's the case seems more a bug than feature.

Disagree. A good tune makes a big difference in how a board handles. Especially on the ice coast!

Doneks typically come with 90° edges so that riders can tune edges to their own preference. He also offers a professional tune service.

I've had some Coilers arrive with some degree of edge bevel, possibly because Bruce test rode the board to tune the flex before installing the topsheet. Others have come with a 90° edge.

Mark sets edge bevels on Thirst boards before sending them out. Typically .7° base & 2° side bevel. I think he may also de-tune at the tip & tail.

P.S. Board design is plausible, but I've not experienced this problem with any of my Contras, but I tuned them. I did experience it with a Coiler NFCB that I rode without a tune.

[johnasmo]

The original Contra shape was trying to maximize edge hold when high on edge and highly flexed.  Funny @pow4evermentioning the two-stroke “je ne sais quoi” as the first prototype had the edge hold, but it wouldn't turn in and grab and tighten the turn until a certain angulation (edge angle) was achieved, then bam!  I likened it to a piped and ported 2-stroke hitting its powerband.  Great fun as long as you avoided being on the wrong side of that band.  I.e., don't be tentative; angulate early and often.

We made two of the first shape, a 178 12m that I was ordering, and a second scaled down to a 10.5m because Bruce had a hunch.  Hesitation doesn't last long on a 10.5, so you hardly noticed the lag, but you could feel it on the 12m.  So that gave rise to a little reshaping and a non-linear approach to how the shape would be scaled to different lengths and different radii.  After all, you don't want to fall on your side waiting for a 16m to tighten up its turn and arrest your fall.  All the 2019 and 2020 Contras would have one of these shapes.

During the 2020/2021 season there were two more iterations, varying nose and tail hooks.  The most promising in the form of a 173 11.5m Contra "AC".  Bruce says he's built a bunch of those this season.  These have a broad, thrashable powerband, but there's still a noticable peakiness in the response to angulation.  "Get down or get out!" - The Contra Mantra. 

You don't have to be layed out fast all the time, but it pays to be keeping your board at a steeper angle than your center of gravity all the time.  You can unweight or catch air, but use the transition to switch your angulation before diving into the next turn.  CG over board perpendicular works, but CG above board perpendicular works better.  That's just a carving thing, not unique to Contras.  You want confident edge hold?  Make sure the angle balancing your CG is pushing the board to the bottom of the trench and not ejecting it out the top.  Do not reach for the snow; angulate away from the snow.  Board angle steeper than CG angle makes your board a trench digger instead of a skidder.  Carving 101.

Sometimes you can get away with zero base edge bevel, others not.  Eric @skwalguyhad a Donek Skwal that wanted to jackknife so bad when running flat that it felt almost unridable until we put a 1 degree base bevel on it and further detuned the nose.  Bruce thinks different thermal properties of the base versus topsheet might also induce some lateral warp at low temps.

What's odd about what @GeoffVand @Jack Mdescribed is that is was in fresh snow too.  I've only ever noticed the edge tune wonkiness when slip sliding on cold, chalky hardpack.  What they described is an indictment of the shape itself.

[pow4ever]

13 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

Disagree. A good tune makes a big difference in how a board handles. Especially on the ice coast!

“If all my possessions were taken from me with one exception, I would choose to keep the power of communication, for by it I would soon regain all the rest.”  I don't communicated too goodly/me fail English that's unpossible  

I agree in tuning(a good one) will be like icing on the cake.  Make something good even better.
My statement is in a very narrow Contra context.
I should have mentioned i had my contra/wogo tuned same as all my other boards by the same shop (Happy Tune in Maine) and riding them in pretty decent condition.  Hence in my very limited experience it's unlikely the tune but something inherently to the core/shape.

Thank you John:  Exactly I notice Contra reward good/consistent input/technique in a specific/explicit way.  Which is definitely lacking on my part.  The other board seems to be less critical and happy with my sloppy input.  I think that's part of my "resistance" to it.  Like eating right/exercise is good for you but when it's force upon me i don't want it.  It's a mind set.  i think it will make me a better rider in the long run but in the short term we will have some differences to reconcile.  In other words: i am a lazy carver; contra want me to be lazy in a different way that i am not accustom to lol...  It make sense for my sloppy/crappy technique but not 100% clear why other more advance rider share some of the same sentiment.

[bigwavedave]

1 hour ago, pow4ever said:

I should have mentioned i had my contra/wogo tuned same as all my other boards by the same shop (Happy Tune in Maine) and riding them in pretty decent condition.  Hence in my very limited experience it's unlikely the tune but something inherently to the core/shape.

Yes, boards with different shape (camber/flex profile/sidecut shape) might require different tuning. Adjusting the amount of detuning and base bevel will likely fix the slarving/drifting thing. Sometimes you need to ride and tweak until it feels right.

I've had 3 different Contras. I think I used a 1° base bevel on the early ones. A .5° base bevel on the last one. Detuned to suit.

[pow4ever]

come to think of it.  When on edge; Contra works excellent but it's that edge transition that i haven't quite figure out in certain condition.

When work well on Contra/WoGo:
1. if one keep constant edge pressure so that it pop you from turn to turn (lots of fun but tiring)
2. air transition  (even more fun but lots of work)

what doesn't work well for my lazy method
carve away almost all the speed to almost point of stalling that edge transition is where the "hesitation" occur.  it take extra effort to get that edge to re-engaged for the next turn.
Other board i seems to be able to dive into the next turn but not on the Contra.

this is the fun part to figure out what work/doesn't work and continue to work on it until it click.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Spent about 4 hours on the Contra AC yesterday morning. I’m not the right person for a valid comparison because it’s been well over a decade since I’ve hardbooted. But I had a blast. I foolishly started on what my local hill calls a diamond (more of a steep blue), so didn’t give myself any time to rebuild technique. Will need to be more patient next time but I was a little too excited. It was a busy Saturday and a lot of the grooming got scraped off down to icy base, but that didn’t seem to really matter. The ice hold on this thing is super impressive when you commit.

I definitely found it doesn’t hook up quite like I remember from my VSR—it didn’t seem to work to lean it in and let the nose catch early and initiate. I felt more like I had to fully fall/dive into the turn and commit to the board catching me. I guess that sort of makes sense with what you’re saying about angulation. 

Just a ton of fun. My positioning was all over the place and it’s too late in the season to start, but I’m glad I did!

[Hollywood 90210]

I wrote a review on the 174 Contra a while ago. Since then my 174 has been my go to board and I probably have close to 80 days (ok half days) on it. I love that board, so much so I have another on order for when this one needs to be retired. 87 deg side and 1 deg base with a slight de-tune in the tip and tail. For me the ride has been very easy to adapt to.  

Edited March 8, 2022 by Hollywood 90210
97 to 87

[polaris]

Similar to Hollywood, I have ridden his Contra and now have ~10 days one of my own.  Aside from some minor adjustments to timing and weighting, I found the shape to provide an easy, predictable, and forgiving ride that doesn't mind being ridden hard.  I ride without any detuning, but also run an 87 side and 1 degree base edge.

[Xargo]

Interesting to read about how Contras work. I have had my own Contra for about 3 months now and finally I've been able to do some backside EC type flatland carves:

The board is 174 long and rather wide (24.7cm) with 16m sidecut. I wanted to be able to do long EC carves with relaxed binding angles. I'm using 45/52 angles atm. I have only hardbooted for an year so still learning but so far I'm thrilled with this board. However, I do agree that it really doesn't like to "slarve" and I've had problems couple of times where I wanted to exit the carve but the board didn't.

I haven't altered the factory tune which Bruce says is 89 side an 0 base. I have maintained the edges with diamond files and there I use the 89 guide for the side and 0.5 for base so I assume I'm slowly working the base angle towards 0.5 but no idea how much wear there has been. I guess I could try the marker trick the next time.

Anyways I'm so damn happy with the board that I'd really like to ride a 30cm+ wide softboot Contra some day. Meanwhile I'll practice more EC type riding and hopefully I can ride EC on steeps later this season.

I had problems with moving my weight forward earlier (the nose would "understeer") but mounting the bindings with setback fixed that. Before doing that I tried to mount the bindings forward a bit but that made the nose "understeer" worse. Now I'm thinking about increasing the setback a bit still but it's hard to figure out the correct "settings" when I know my technique isn't there yet so it's hard to say whether some problem is because of the settings or just lack of skill.

I've been thinking if I should detune the tail a bit but considering I've only had problems couple of times, I'm unsure if that's really needed.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Xargo

[Shred Gruumer]

Contra, contra contra, wobbly contra, wiggle giggly contra, contra plus 2, asmo contra, etc. V1, v2, v12

 

Once all this nonsense stops... I'll try one. 

Interesting how the Kessler still holds.. 

It's maybe just an option and preference thing after all not better.. 

 

 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

Contra, contra contra, wobbly contra, wiggle giggly contra, contra plus 2, asmo contra, etc. V1, v2, v12

Once all this nonsense stops... I'll try one. 

Interesting how the Kessler still holds.. 

It's maybe just an option and preference thing after all not better..

I think it is a personal preference.  I liked the AC version best of the 3 I've tried, but I won't be ordering one myself.  I love all the thought that has gone into this.  Skiers don't do this.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I definitely can’t and won’t speak for Bruce, but he had a 168 there we chatted about briefly. If I remember correctly I got the feeling he wasn’t  interested in trying to recreate it. He was looking for a wide-conditions ride with similar edge hold but easier to spend a day on. 

I’m sure someone has taken the Contra and 168 for back to back spins. I should have thought about asking him to try it out a couple weeks ago. At this point I have some other kid and work commitments piling up and I’m scared I might not make it up in the next few weeks. Might have to be a December test.

At the end of the day Bruce makes incredible boards at an incredible price point. For me it’s hard to argue with the proposition of buying two custom Coilers instead of one stock Kessler. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by ShortcutToMoncton

[Ladia]

I did direct comparison between new Contra and  older Angry, same conditions in one hour window.  For me it is Angry all the way. I ordered Contra based on reviews here and so far it is not working for me. Of course I am considering my current condition I had 6 days during last 2 seasons. I am not giving up, maybe when I will be in better shape. I finally  did Cornice and Sentinel bowl at Kirkwood last week. It was another small step for me.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Haha it’s funny you mention the Angry and fitness as that is a perfect encapsulation of the@Jack M and @Shred Gruumercomments on different strokes for folks!  

I’d consider that board much harder to ride than the Contra. Way more active weight distribution and locked-in tail hook. Just a really different approch for sure.

 Have fun! 

[Odd Job]

16 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

At the end of the day Bruce makes incredible boards at an incredible price point. For me it’s hard to argue with the proposition of buying two custom Coilers instead of one stock Kessler. 

A stock Kessler is usually a waste of time and money. 100% on the Coilers. I think.

Also a little drunk.

[johnasmo]

19 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

I’m sure someone has taken the Contra and 168 for back to back spins.

Yeah, I've done that a bunch.  Eight times in just the last two weeks.  March is a crucible of board testing, with the gamut of conditions from hero to rain soaked and frozen.  It's a good month for evaluating the pros and cons of boards in a variety of conditions.

The Apline 168 is the only Kessler I have.  I think it's stock, but I got it used from second owner through the for sale forum. @MR. JOHN DEERE !might have been the original owner.  The fact that they turn over shows they are not everyone's cup of tea either. 

The days I take it out, I ride it first to test the waters while the runs are still smooth.  From there I switch to one or more Contras to finish the day.  Have never stayed on the K168 to last chair.

K168 Pros:  It has an almost perfect feeling turn in hard, smooth snow when giving about 80%.  The base pressure feels really evenly distributed along the whole edge from low angles to about 45 degrees.  Flex and sidecut really in tune.  Turn initiation comes on early and progressively with edge angle.  Low angle slarving feels fine.  Relatively soft so can be carved slow and gentle on icy conditions (testing the waters).

K168 Cons:  Not so comfortable when the snow isn't smooth, and not so confident in edge hold when giving 100%.  The 0.4mm titanal in a 20cm width give it some unforgiving torsional stiffness, and the ends are carrying a lot of the load when high on edge.  When the edge doesn't hold, there's drama; not so much for the board, but for you legs.

Contra Pros:  Kung-Fu grip; edge hold against the fall line.  Forgiving suspension.  Low drama slippage when high on edge.  Take care of the center and the ends will take care of themselves.

Contra Cons:  Peaky turn initiation; get down or get out.  Spooky low angle sliding.  The stiffer the board, the more friction the nose seems to create during low angle slip sliding.

The Contra is a steeps board, for confidently completing turns fully across the fall line on 40+% grades.  The K168 seems most comfortable slaloming on 30% grades, but can throw down on steeps as well. 

Contra Contraindications:
1) You don't like steeps.
2) You prefer to ease into turns. 
3) You only ride AM groom; you don't carve to last chair.

I have half a dozen Contras, and their character changes quite a bit based on how stiff they are.  Since every build is a custom for someone's width and weight, experiences may vary.

[NateW]

On 3/4/2022 at 11:55 PM, johnasmo said:

...but it wouldn't turn in and grab and tighten the turn until a certain angulation (edge angle) was achieved, then bam! 

That's how I feel about my Kessler 174. It rides like a 15m SCR at low to moderate edge angles, and when I get down to hip-dragging angles it carves a path more like my 13m boards. The nonlinear feel is a little weird and I have mixed feelings about it.

I'm the 2nd owner so I don't know much about the design, but the SCR in the middle of the board is pretty close to my F2 183, and it tightens up at the tip and tail. I thought I read that Contras were the reverse of this approach, so now I'm more confused than usual.

[slabber]

10 hours ago, johnasmo said:

 

I have half a dozen Contras, and their character changes quite a bit based on how stiff they are.  Since every build is a custom for someone's width and weight, experiences may vary.

Curious on this point - were they all made for you / your weight?  But with varying degrees of extra or less stiffness?  Or some are boards built for others with a different flex number?  I guess that's the same thing - curious what flex / length you feel to be best for all around?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Just as a suggestion—that’s not a question you should be crowdsourcing….the answer is whatever Bruce tells you once he looks at your details  

[slabber]

21 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Just as a suggestion—that’s not a question you should be crowdsourcing….the answer is whatever Bruce tells you once he looks at your details  

Just trying to educate myself.  Sent Bruce info about my current setups in early February.