Gear update time warp

[knightscape]

Hey folks, new member, been carving since the 90s, never raced.  Never occurred to me to look for an internet community for carving since I thought we had just mostly died out.  People in the lift lines always say stuff like "Oh I've seen one of you over at Sugarloaf" (Maine), like I'm some kind of notable weirdo.  Blew my mind when I stumbled onto the site here today.  Bear with me, this may ramble, I'm super excited to learn you all exist, and I have a lot of catching up to do with the gear.  I've been mostly riding the same board since 2000, a Burton Ultra Prime 162 with the same Burton Race Plates I had back then with regular DIN ski boots.  I've been riding it fairly conservatively so as not to destroy it and keeping it well tuned.  Only ride it on good days, never on anything icy or at all sketchy, that sort of thing.  I picked up a stiff soft boot freeride board as my primary for a few years and I'm now actually back on skis primarily to help my kids learn to ski.  I get out the carving tools maybe once or twice a winter.  Discovering that not only is carving alive and well, but that Bomber is still in business, holy wow.  Back in the day I always wanted a set of Trench Diggers but could never afford them and thought they had closed like Catek (did it actually go under and get revived?).  On my wall is an old Burton Alp I've ridden three times.  It's a 171 and I was never heavy enough to really ride it, that's no longer an issue (lol, kids...) and I was thinking about mounting up a new set of bindings on it to finally bring it out to give it the life it deserved.  A few questions:  I've never had purpose built carving boots, I was always happy enough with alpine ski boots, should I rethink that now?  I know boot tech has changed with the bindings but I still don't really know much about how, if there's a wiki somewhere, I'd love to see it.  Modern bindings all seem built around shorter BSLs, my current AT boots are 327mm BSL (28.5 mondo).  I haven't actually ridden my new boots on my old boards yet (I've also got an Oxygen Krypton asymmetric with Burton Plates for full 1996 sillies), but the Burton Plates adjusted to take them with room to spare.  With that, do I have it wrong about modern bindings or can I keep riding my longer sole alpine ski boots in a new set?  I was always the type of rider who liked to change between board to skis in the middle of the day once the corduroy was used up.  Of all the new bindings out there, do I still want TDs because I always lusted after them or is there something that would be better suited for a mid 40s guy that still charges but doesn't go quite as hard as he used to but could now choose to afford them?  The Burton Plates have always done pretty well by me with the adjustable circle cant disk in rear it looks like the F2's and SGs aren't shockingly different from that old design, minus the reliance on the disk.  I'm still amazed you folks all exist.  Sorry for the ramble, like I said, I'm just really excited to know you're all out there.

[boardguru]

Welcome knightscape. I am sure you will be getting a ton of advice and other comments from members here. Welcome to 21st century carving.

[Jack M]

Welcome home!  Yes there are a few of us at Sugarloaf and also some racers at CVA.  You "can" use ski boots in plate bindings like Bomber and F2, but it's not ideal.  If you're determined to do that and your ski boots are stiff, you might enjoy F2 bindings more as they are more flexible.  Bombers are more durable and stiffer.  Some people like me enjoy the extra response of Bombers.  28.5 isn't small and ski boots will force you into higher binding angles than you could use with snowboard hardboots.  A few years ago I got some ski boots thinking I would like to get back into skiing - snowboarding in the morning and skiing in the afternoon.  I got some 130 flex Solomons and could barely even skid down the mountain with them on my snowboard, nevermind carve, lol.  That was a short-lived experiment.

Check out our classifieds here, boards and boots and bindings have certainly come a long way in your time off.  It would be worthwhile to try your old Alp 171 when conditions are good, but you can do better with a modern board with metal (Titanal) laminates.  Any questions for the tribe, fire away.

[dredman]

Welcome to the Forum!

You have missed out on a lot of technology changes!  Modern boards are so much more fun to ride!  The spectrum of conditions that they are fun and easy to ride has never been wider.

The Bomber TD-3 is a very popular binding, and still as visually stunning as ever.  

There are many compromises with using one boot for both skiing and carving.  UPZ, Deeluxe and Mountain Slope are all quite popular in the carving community.  

Time for an upgrade to modern performance and fun!

[Wolf]

I think most here would say that all of your gear is due for an upgrade, but you can still have plenty of fun on your Burton boards if you ride groomers on nice days without ice.  That said, the only new bindings you can get now with 3-hole disks for Burton are Bombers. Used Catek's may come with "combo" 3-hole/4-hole plates. And the old Burton designs were re-marketed under the Ibex brand and those might still be available, but they are the same as the old Burton's. 

Others here have much more expertise than me concerning technological advancements in boots and boards and you'll get good advice to upgrade those.  But if running you old Burton boards with new bindings is a consideration that will impact your binding choices.

[gawdzira]

I took up skiing again a few years ago to teach my kids as well. On the ski boot vs. my UPZ RC12, you might as well compare apples to rocket surgery. Get the alpine boot. After I got mine I grew 3" taller, my hair came back and I was handed Martinis anytime I walked into a hotel lobby. 

 

Obviously I am kidding about the hotels, but the rest is true.

[icebiker]

Welcome! I second the advice to get dedicated snowboard hard boots. I’d also suggest instead of switching to skis when the cord is gone, try an all Mtn board for the afternoons.  I run TD3 SW’s on my Donek for morning runs, then switch to a Ride with F2’s when bumps start to form. If you decide to get new equipment I highly recommend Intec/Fintech step ins. A bit more $$ than traditional bindings but bending down to touch my toes was never a strength of mine.. Lots of experienced riders here that can give you guidance.  Keep us posted on what you you decide.  

[st_lupo]

Welcome to the home you never knew you had!  Definitely do an update on your gear and I think you will be loving life. 

The typical rule of thumb is invest the most time and money in getting the right boots as you can keep these for a long time.  Snowboard specific hardboots that fit well are worth virtually any price.  Look for something that has lots of adjustment possibilities (but don't go down the rabbit hole of twiddling all of those screws and adjusters unless you have a specific need and know what you are doing).  Some kind of spring system for tuning longitudinal flex is also a very good thing. I've been on UPZ RC10s for a while now and love them.  Upgrading to a better liner (Intuition Powerwraps) was also a game-changer for me in both comfort and control.  Mountain Slope are highly recommended boots but $$$$.  I also love my Booster straps.

Next find a modern board with titanal in the layup and a length and sidecut that matches your local ski hill.  I like carving specific board types (Coiler Nirvanas, Kessler Alpines), and I think they are a lot more versatile than they get credit for. 

Finally, find a set of bindings (from a reputable brand) in good shape (but it they are used, check out the hardware for broken t-nuts, etc.)  I actually like non-intec bindings as it serves as motivation to cut down on the liquid carbs if necessary.

With modern boards you might even be surprised that you don't want to swap to skis after the morning groom gets demolished.   I love fresh corduroy, but there is nothing like carving dynamically and demolishing a tracked out run.  Kinda like F1 vs WRC.

[Aracan]

What st_lupo said. The boots make or break the alpine deal.

Re ski boots vs. sb hardboots: I can supply anecdotal evidence from the other side. Back in the day I had a pair of orange Deeluxe Indys, which I would rate on the very stiff side of hardboots. I used them on skiboards, because my kid was small and learning to ski. Even those very stiff hardboots even on those short skiboards felt rather noodly. Therefore I suspect ski boots on a board will limit your ankle motion to the detriment of your riding. Of course, as always, YMMV.

The Burton plates may or may not be fine after all those years, but some important parts are made of plastic, so even if you like them, you might want to try and score some newer version from Ibex or Carve Company.

Re step-in vs. bail: There is a difference not just in comfort, because step-ins basically mean Intecs and that means your heel will not be able to "rock" laterally because of the pins. This will affect your riding to a greater or lesser degree - the wider the board, the greater the effect.

 

[Justin]

Welcome!

[knightscape]

This is all great feedback, thanks for the welcome!  If dedicated boots make your hair grow back in, sign me up! I've also been looking for a skull cap for under my helmet, gets a little frosty up there these days, haha!  I think I'm going pull out my old Ultra Prime this weekend while my kids are in ski school, and try out my touring boots on them to see how that goes.  I'm definitely going to move towards some TD3's, I think my knees like the idea of the sidewinders with the damped lateral flex.  Being the only plates that will mount up on a 3 hole makes that research easy I guess so I can just pick up a 4x4 disk separate for when the time comes for a new board.  I'm definitely interested in the idea of the stepins.  It looks that most of the heels are convertable to step ins these days?  Any recommendations for a boot for a non race oriented, all mountain rider?  I do like to head off into the trees when it gets deep which is what I originally bought that Alp for.  The Deeluxe Ground Controls and 325s both caught my eye as specifically saying they are more recreation/comfort oriented.  Seems like the Upz and Mountain Slopes are oriented more for blasting gates?  I have two knees that I try to be careful with, it took me a lot of years of glucosamine to put them back together, so some flex is good for me, I've been loving skiing on AT boots since I move over to those last year since they move a little more surfy than traditional alpine boots.

[Jack M]

6 hours ago, knightscape said:

Any recommendations for a boot for a non race oriented, all mountain rider?

My understanding of the current boot fitting landscape is this:

Average volume ankle/instep or less = UPZ or Mountain Slope

High volume ankle/instep = Deeluxe Track 700.  Avg/low volume feet will likely suffer heel lift inside the boot.

Narrow feet = Deeluxe Track 425 Pro (stiff) or 325 (softer).

I believe Mountain Slope and Track 700 have the widest forefoot.  All can be stretched by a shop.

Mountain Slope is not compatible with the Intec step-in system.  MS are favored by racers, but they offer a "standard" 100-flex version which is more forgiving.

There are different flavors of UPZ boots that offer different stiffness.  They have had different names over the years.  Research before buying.

The standard forward lean selector on Deeluxe boots needs to be discarded immediately and replaced with an aftermarket spring system like Bomber BTS.  The standard unit simply locks the ankle joint at the selected angle of forward lean, and then it cannot hinge.  Any forward flex then comes from deforming the boot plastic.  Unless you ride it in walk mode, then the ankle hinges freely and all forward stiffness comes from the tongue.  Bad design, but quickly corrected with a spring system ($$$).  UPZ and Mountain Slope come with adjustable spring systems.

UPZ, Deeluxe, and Mountain Slope offer different stiffness tongues, but generally you only go there if you need more stiffness than the spring system can give you.

UPZ liners typically get replaced by aftermarket Intuition moldable liners.  Deeluxe boots come with Intuition moldable liners.  Mountain Slopes come with their own moldable liners, which are good.

I have yet to read a positive review of Deeluxe Ground Controls.  To my eye they look like boots for people who don't want to ride hardboots, but want the convenience of a single toe clip or step-ins.  For real carving, I think they look like a disaster, but I haven't tried them.

[billyt.]

Make sure you get the step-in Intec/ Fintec for your boots, along with your bindings.  Chick magnet!

[lamby]

I'm old and in the way now, but I have many hours on Ultra Prime 162. A forgiving board with what I find to be a delicious sidecut radius of 11ish. Hang on to it and compare it to whatever new technology goodness you decide on.

Bindings. I have friends who swear by their step-in set ups. I've good things about them, but I like my standard "flip" the toe bail closed systems. I ride Carve Company (Burton Race plate style). I also change out the bails on them every two years of hard use. I break the bails on them if I push the number of days on them. They flexible bindings and light weight. I like them, but not realiable if you are buying used. Buy new bails if you are going to keep using your current race plates ( better yet, if you want a forgiving, softer plate binding consider F2 Carve RS = bails are thicker than the bails on Burton Race Plate/Carve Company http://i-carve.com/f2_carve_rs

I have ridden Trench Digger Ones and Threes, for many years. They were more durable than Burton Race plates, but they also stiffened up the boards, or seemed to do so. I liked them though, especially on bigger, stiffer, longer sidecut radius boards. I don't ride those stiffer longer boards anymore though. Maybe again someday - one can hope (if physical therapy pays off on injured shoulder). Putting Trench Diggers on a board made it feel like the  board was responding to very little input from the foot/ankle/leg/... If I was buying Trench Diggers I would definitely get sidewinders.

I also ride F2 Race Titanium bindings. Stiffer than F2 Carve RS. Very fine and durable binding. Adjusting F2s for boot sizing is super easy.

Sorry for the ramble, but excited that you found this great forum. Welcome welcome fellow booter!!!

[Aracan]

I would strongly advise against buying a boot based on what the manufacturer says about its riding properties. Buy the shell that best approximates your foot shape. Flex characteristics can be tweaked.

[Eboot]

Welcome.
Just in case you missed this - if your foot shape is correct these seem to be your size:

 

[knightscape]

11 hours ago, lamby said:

I ride Carve Company (Burton Race plate style). I also change out the bails on them every two years of hard use. I break the bails on them if I push the number of days on them. They flexible bindings and light weight. I like them, but not realiable if you are buying used. Buy new bails if you are going to keep using your current race plates ( better yet, if you want a forgiving, softer plate binding consider F2 Carve RS = bails are thicker than the bails on Burton Race Plate/Carve Company http://i-carve.com/f2_carve_rs

When you say new bails, you mean NOS Burtons or are the Carve Company or F2 bails compatible with the old Burtons?  I went though a few years ago, always the rear.  I've been getting nervous for the ones I've had on so long, having a spare would be great.

[ibrussell]

The Carve company bails are the same as Burton bails.

[lamby]

1 hour ago, knightscape said:

When you say new bails, you mean NOS Burtons or are the Carve Company or F2 bails compatible with the old Burtons?  I went though a few years ago, always the rear.  I've been getting nervous for the ones I've had on so long, having a spare would be great.

ibrussell is spot on - Carve Company bails are the same. They are the same as the Burton bails, which Burton no longer sells. You can get them at Pure Boarding

https://www.carversparadise.com/de_DE/products-list/kategorie/zubehor-snowboard-boots-bindung-ersatzteile/speed-cc

BTW, with continued use, all binding bails will fatigue and break, even the heftier ones. I've broken bails on Trench Diggers, so I started replacing bails on those too (when I was riding them, back in the day)

[Aracan]

Burton plates were never made by Burton themselves, at least not the ones that are still in use. The Carve Company bindings are made by a later incarnation of the company that made the original Burton OEM bindings.

[st_lupo]

1 hour ago, Aracan said:

Burton plates were never made by Burton themselves, at least not the ones that are still in use. The Carve Company bindings are made by a later incarnation of the company that made the original Burton OEM bindings.

Are you thinking of Ibex?

 

BTW this is a great segue into a treasure trove of old arcana that might be interesting for @knightscape:  the carver’s almanac.  Really out of date, but lots of interesting nuggets there.

http://www.alpinecarving.com/binding_model.html

[knightscape]

1 hour ago, st_lupo said:

Are you thinking of Ibex?

 

BTW this is a great segue into a treasure trove of old arcana that might be interesting for @knightscape:  the carver’s almanac.  Really out of date, but lots of interesting nuggets there.

http://www.alpinecarving.com/binding_model.html

Haha, I know the carver's almanac, I was on there back when the information was fresh and it's how I stumbled back here the other day I was looking up info on Bomber and Catek to see if I could find old stuff for sale on ebay.  Here's my Catek sticker from 1999, I was hoping the bindings lasted as well as the sticker.  Came from a board shop in Tupper Lake, NY that sold F2s.  I think he closed when the local hill Big Tupper closed.

[Odd Job]

425's can still fit wide feet.

My feet fit the 425's fine. Measured size is about 25.4/25.6cm; I wear 24mp.

My foot width ranges from 4E-6E; and it still bulges out from the sides of the shoe a little (widest part of my foot is more midfoot than forefoot).

I don't really notice a different in fit between 425's and 700's either.
I do just throw an intuition liner in there and call it a day; no shell modifications.

The stock liners (thermoflex + palau) from Deeluxe suck.

[Eastsiiiide]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:55 AM, Odd Job said:

425's can still fit wide feet.

My feet fit the 425's fine. Measured size is about 25.4/25.6cm; I wear 24mp.

My foot width ranges from 4E-6E; and it still bulges out from the sides of the shoe a little (widest part of my foot is more midfoot than forefoot).

This is great information thank you Odd Job.  I am likewise a 25.5 wide.  My feet don't measure super wide on the measurer thingy, but are flat and high volume, so they fit super wide.  My M.O. for all footwear is to buy whatever model is widest and flattest, and then simply remove whatever footbed is in there and wear it like that.  If I want to adjust the fit from there I'll sometimes add a totally flat insole/footbed.  For my (AT ski) hardboots I also added a little heel wedge in the back foot to reduce heel lift.  And whether I'm in soft or hard boots, I can count on intense foot cramps for the first half the day and opening all the latches/boas on every lift.  There are always people trying to push 'arch supports' as the remedy for flat feet, but it's the opposite.  Arch supports are straight up torture devices for me, and my feet are never happier than in totally flat shoes, and it makes them stronger/more agile too.  In fact after switching to flat, zero drop shoes years ago, my feet became noticeably less flat.  But I digress.

If you are able to make the 425s work, then that is probably the best bet for me too.  I'm amazed you can size down in them on top of it.  Did you do any extreme bootfitting or other mods?

Edited January 29, 2022 by Eastsiiiide

[Odd Job]

6 hours ago, Eastsiiiide said:

This is great information thank you Odd Job.  I am likewise a 25.5 wide.  My feet don't measure super wide on the measurer thingy, but are flat and high volume, so they fit super wide.  My M.O. for all footwear is to buy whatever model is widest and flattest, and then simply remove whatever footbed is in there and wear it like that.  If I want to adjust the fit from there I'll sometimes add a totally flat insole/footbed.  For my (AT ski) hardboots I also added a little heel wedge in the back foot to reduce heel lift.  And whether I'm in soft or hard boots, I can count on intense foot cramps for the first half the day and opening all the latches/boas on every lift.  There are always people trying to push 'arch supports' as the remedy for flat feet, but it's the opposite.  Arch supports are straight up torture devices for me, and my feet are never happier than in totally flat shoes, and stronger/more agile.  In fact after switching to flat, zero drop shoes years ago, my feet became noticeably less flat.  But I digress.

If you are able to make the 425s work, then that is probably the best bet for me too.  I'm amazed you can size down in them on top of it.  Did you do any extreme bootfitting or other mods?

Nope, totally "stock" (liner is Intuition Powerwrap). Zero work done to the shell, just aftermarket liner. The reason I say the stock stock liner sucks is, they're too soft, and do not pack out anywhere near enough for high volume feet.

I use a superfeet custom cork footbed; it almost has no arch support. For extra info, my arches sorta go the other way (sagging flesh?); I have reverse camber feet.

Fwiw. If you want a softer boot; I'd get the 700s. I've ridden them for years with no problems with fit.

Actually if the 700/425 fits, the entire Deeluxe hardboot line would fit you as I think there are only two shapes (assymetrical/symmetrical flex) (I could be wrong).