Nidecker Spectre - too deep sidecut? (7.9 m Sidecut Radius on 168)

[daveo]

28 minutes ago, Skahw said:

Maybe the #17508?
169 length is even better. 
17m sidecut radius might be a little too much for my taste tho.
What do the Characters in "Mat." (Material I guess) stand for?
C = Carbon?
T = Titanal?
G = Goon???
 269 waist width might even be too much... but the ones with 259 have 19m sidecut radius.

Which one would you go for?

LOL! Goon. Time to move to Australia I think. You'll fit right in.

Nah it's glass as in fibreglass. My understanding from talking to Marcel is that Oxess' softer boards use glass construction because the prepreg carbon top or titanal top will stiffen it too much. Radius on the #17508 is huge, that'd be for a BX course that has quite large radius turns I think. Might not be user friendly. From what I understand about Oxess BX boards, the radius will turn a little bit bigger than specified if comparing it to other boards (don't quote me, but i've read that multiple places). I think going for a 12m radius would be good I guess. Maybe others will have a different or better recommendation.

You know what ... maybe email Marcel and tell him what you are after and ask him for a recommendation from his sale list because you want to try his boards without paying the high price for a custom. Every Oxess board is custom and hand made. There is no large production facility, just a small workshop.

21 minutes ago, Skahw said:

Yeah well I do not really care where its from. If any it would be a contra, because it woudnt be as rare here!  And I wanna be a special boy 
Also the topsheet of the F2 boards look awful, I dont know what my german fellas smoked while design that

The #20426 looks like the perfect board. But why is it so much more expensive? Not cool

I have a Contra on the way  To join keep my 2 Oxess company. I've bought many boards from Bruce. The only two brands I buy now are Coiler and Oxess. I trust Kessler with my life, also.

Agree with your assessment of #20426, although the radius is still on the bigger end, especially if you've never used a BX board before. This board is probably newer than the others. You can ask Marcel the reason and he will tell you. These boards in the sale section have all been used for testing or prototyping or something like this. Some are brand new and some are used more than others.

But don't take my word for anything. I know nothing.

Edited April 23, 2021 by daveo

[JRAZZ]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

He's riding 9deg rear at the moment. Can you calc it?

28.78cm

 

A size 9 boot has a BSL of 29cm so that's the max (at 0 degrees).

As far as angles go, I ride 27°/12° on my Cafe Racer (27cm waist) and 36°/21° on my Alloy DO (25cm waist) with a size 9.5 women's boot (equivalent to a size 8.5 in mens) so very close to your size. I tried running 36/21 on other boards but only the Alloy really responds well to those angles. The Korua is very hard to turn with those angles.

I think this has to do a lot with the waist width. I wouldn't try anything over 27° on the front foot with a board that has more than a 25.5cm waist. It never works in my experience. 

BTW, I tried 45°/30° on my 23.5cm waist Coiler and it was hard to turn as well. That's why I think the Spectre is not going to be good for soft boots. I can ride the Coiler at 36°/21° but then I experience boot drag.

[rst]

6 hours ago, Skahw said:

Thanks for your suggestion. 
Do you think 163 will be enough? The 166W version would be more expensive.

if we are talking about width the both are narrow 254 vs 260 not that big difference imho

 

you have us9

so, for aggressive carving, you have to have +15, 18, or even 21 degree angle on rear binding, and even more on front one

 

contact length on 163 is quite enough looks it's the best in your list

 

PS

it's good board, but it requires certain level of skill, if you are ready to improve, go for it

6 hours ago, Skahw said:

But the topsheet just looks awful

if you are riding a board, you do not see top sheet, it's covered with snow... I really do not care how topsheet looks unless it's custom board and I have to pick one

[Skahw]

12 hours ago, daveo said:

LOL! Goon. Time to move to Australia I think. You'll fit right in.

When corona is gone I will certainly go on a vacation to Australia. I just hope that no giant frog or sth is going to eat me

12 hours ago, daveo said:

You know what ... maybe email Marcel and tell him what you are after and ask him for a recommendation from his sale list because you want to try his boards without paying the high price for a custom. Every Oxess board is custom and hand made. There is no large production facility, just a small workshop.

I have just called Heinz and he is going to send me a selection of boards that could fit my needs.
But first they are going on a 2 days vacation. I lowkey envy them, cause I am learning for an examn right now...
He really seems to be a kind and funny person!

Edited April 23, 2021 by Skahw

[Skahw]

10 hours ago, rst said:

it's good board, but it requires certain level of skill, if you are ready to improve, go for it

I will look into the sales of Oxess boards first. 
When all of the boards are way to expensive, I will play the waiting game until the 2021 version in 166W of the F2 Elimnators are less expensive. (All earlier 166W versions are sold out)

10 hours ago, rst said:

if you are riding a board, you do not see top sheet, it's covered with snow... I really do not care how topsheet looks unless it's custom board and I have to pick one

On groomers I can see the board, but in good powder you are right.
The looks are not in my top criteria, but the huge "Eliminator" logo looks like its made for 6 year old kids tho...
However, it might be fitting! 

And when I really cant stand the looks, I'll might just get some black vinyl wrap and cover the topsheet.
Does somebody have experience with that? Does it peel off too fast or might it even change the boardfeel to a certain degree?

[BlueB]

15 hours ago, Skahw said:

And when I really cant stand the looks, I'll might just get some black vinyl wrap and cover the topsheet.
Does somebody have experience with that? Does it peel off too fast or might it even change the boardfeel to a certain degree?

Yes, of course it will! You can also get the self adhesive aluminum foil, to make a non-titanal board ride just like the titanal technology. Who needs to spend hundreds of dollars more, while you can do it with vinyl.  [/sarcasm] 

Edited April 24, 2021 by BlueB

[Corey]

23 hours ago, Skahw said:

And when I really cant stand the looks, I'll might just get some black vinyl wrap and cover the topsheet.
Does somebody have experience with that? Does it peel off too fast or might it even change the boardfeel to a certain degree?

It works well. Clean, apply, trim any corners with a radius so it doesn't start peeling as easy. If any spots start peeling, use clear nail polish to seal that edge down before it gets worse. 

It will deform under the bindings. Mines been fine for probably over 100 days of use. 

@BlueB - I'm going to try an X in aluminum duct tape to add torsional rigidity!  Lessons learned from the sidecut thread! 

[Jack M]

I like F2 graphics. With bindings on you don’t really read the letters, they kind of just become shapes. The Eliminator is a venerable board with plenty of cred among riders who know. 

[daveo]

13 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I like F2 graphics. With bindings on you don’t really read the letters, they kind of just become shapes. The Eliminator is a venerable board with plenty of cred among riders who know. 

Liar, you can read it clearly. Always been a fan of the F2 Shredster. 

[Skahw]

11 hours ago, Jack M said:

I like F2 graphics. With bindings on you don’t really read the letters, they kind of just become shapes. The Eliminator is a venerable board with plenty of cred among riders who know. 

Yeah your board actually looks decent. Not all of F2's topsheets are awful. Some are fine. But the one of the 163 WC wasnt my taste at all

[Skahw]

I've contacted Oxess Boards and they sent me some example boards that might fit to my needs.

Three 169cm boards do look premising. One has a 14.5m sidecut radius and is made of Titanal, but its a bit expensive.
The other two boards have a 17m sidecut radius. One is made of Titanal and is 50€ more expensidive and the other one my of Carbon. I guess the 50€ would be worth it, right?

And here comes my question. Does somebody have experiences with such a huge sidecut radius?

 

[daveo]

44 minutes ago, Skahw said:

I've contacted Oxess Boards and they sent me some example boards that might fit to my needs.

Three 169cm boards do look premising. One has a 14.5m sidecut radius and is made of Titanal, but its a bit expensive.
The other two boards have a 17m sidecut radius. One is made of Titanal and is 50€ more expensidive and the other one my of Carbon. I guess the 50€ would be worth it, right?

And here comes my question. Does somebody have experiences with such a huge sidecut radius?

 

Titanal will be more damp, stable and predictable.
Carbon will be more powerful and return more energy to you when turning.

My preference lies with titanal. But that's just me. Preference dictates whether alpine riders want titanal or carbon (from what I understand, Marcel makes more carbon carving alpine boards vs titanal alpine carving boards). Titanal vs carbon is rider preference in bx races (might be course specific, also, I don't know). SL/GS racers exclusively use titanal.

I think 12m would probably be perfect for your first Oxess. 10m-14.5m would be the range I'd look at. I think for the 17m to be suitable, it'll need to be a bit more flexible than the 14.5m boards. But in general, that's a pretty big sidecut and personally I would look for something smaller.

@David Kirk has a lot of experience with various sidecuts on Oxess BX boards, some being of the bigger variety. Perhaps he'll chime in with some advice.

Edited April 26, 2021 by daveo

[David Kirk]

I'm not sure if this directly applies or not but it can't hurt -

FWIW - my experience says that one should match the sidecut radius to the speed you want to go and the width of the trails you ride. Boards with a very tight radius (like the 7.9M in the OP) are not comfortable being ridden at a high speed with a high edge angle (very tight turns at a high speed try to beak the laws of physics) so they need to be ridden at either a lower speed or a lower edge angle.

One thing that is almost never discussed is that the torsional rigidity of a board is paramount to its precision and stability....and of course some boards are stiffer in torsion than others. At the same time one needs to recognize how every board works, regardless of its sidecut or its inherent torsional stiffness.

When a board is flat it's relatively easy to twist it. It's just the nature of a flat plane. But when you bend it into an arc the torsional stiffness goes through the roof. The arc itself makes it MUCH harder to twist. You can try this with a good old fashioned metal ruler while sitting at your desk. With the ruler flat twist it and note the resistance. Now bend it into an arc and try to twist it. It will be much harder to twist. The tighter the arc the stiffer it gets. A board is the same way.

Why does this matter? Well a board will be the most stable, and have the best edge bite, when it's bent into a tight arc because the torsional stiffness is the greatest this way....in practice it means that the edge angle of the tip of the board will more closely match the edge angle under your feet (less twist) and this will make it dig hard and be more stable. With that said a board with a very tight radius can't be ridden at a high speed with a high edge angle. If the short radius board is ridden at a higher speed it will need to be at a lower edge angle which in turn means that it will be not be bent into a tight arc...which in turn means that the torsional stiffness will be low...which means that it will not be as stable. So you have a board that becomes inherently unstable at speed....higher speed, low edge angle and low torsional stiffness don't play nice together.

One other thing...a short radius board can be ridden hard and deep by a very skilled rider. I can hear some here saying that they can carve their 8m board hard and I believe you. That said it takes more skill to do so. All the movements the rider needs to make to get a deep tight care to happen need to happen in a shorter time period and this is harder to do. Most will think that that is counter intuitive and that going faster is harder than going slower. I get it. But if I were advising a moderate level rider as to board choice the board would have a medium radius and never a super short one. It's just easier to ride and more rewarding most of the time.

I hope that makes sense. I've not finished my morning coffee so who knows!

dave

 

 

 

[Skahw]

3 hours ago, David Kirk said:

I'm not sure if this directly applies or not but it can't hurt -

FWIW - my experience says that one should match the sidecut radius to the speed you want to go and the width of the trails you ride. Boards with a very tight radius (like the 7.9M in the OP) are not comfortable being ridden at a high speed with a high edge angle (very tight turns at a high speed try to beak the laws of physics) so they need to be ridden at either a lower speed or a lower edge angle.

One thing that is almost never discussed is that the torsional rigidity of a board is paramount to its precision and stability....and of course some boards are stiffer in torsion than others. At the same time one needs to recognize how every board works, regardless of its sidecut or its inherent torsional stiffness.

When a board is flat it's relatively easy to twist it. It's just the nature of a flat plane. But when you bend it into an arc the torsional stiffness goes through the roof. The arc itself makes it MUCH harder to twist. You can try this with a good old fashioned metal ruler while sitting at your desk. With the ruler flat twist it and note the resistance. Now bend it into an arc and try to twist it. It will be much harder to twist. The tighter the arc the stiffer it gets. A board is the same way.

Why does this matter? Well a board will be the most stable, and have the best edge bite, when it's bent into a tight arc because the torsional stiffness is the greatest this way....in practice it means that the edge angle of the tip of the board will more closely match the edge angle under your feet (less twist) and this will make it dig hard and be more stable. With that said a board with a very tight radius can't be ridden at a high speed with a high edge angle. If the short radius board is ridden at a higher speed it will need to be at a lower edge angle which in turn means that it will be not be bent into a tight arc...which in turn means that the torsional stiffness will be low...which means that it will not be as stable. So you have a board that becomes inherently unstable at speed....higher speed, low edge angle and low torsional stiffness don't play nice together.

One other thing...a short radius board can be ridden hard and deep by a very skilled rider. I can hear some here saying that they can carve their 8m board hard and I believe you. That said it takes more skill to do so. All the movements the rider needs to make to get a deep tight care to happen need to happen in a shorter time period and this is harder to do. Most will think that that is counter intuitive and that going faster is harder than going slower. I get it. But if I were advising a moderate level rider as to board choice the board would have a medium radius and never a super short one. It's just easier to ride and more rewarding most of the time.

I hope that makes sense. I've not finished my morning coffee so who knows!

dave

 

 

 

Thanks Dave. That was very helpful!

Were you able to try out your new 14.5 Radius board or will you have to wait for the next season?
It would be very interesting to see how these sidecutradius differences change the board behavior.

I you were me would you spend 50% on top to get the 14.5 instead of 17m radius?

[daveo]

45 minutes ago, Skahw said:

It would be very interesting to see how these sidecutradius differences change the board behavior.

I reckon that part is pretty straightforward mate 

[David Kirk]

48 minutes ago, Skahw said:

Thanks Dave. That was very helpful!

Were you able to try out your new 14.5 Radius board or will you have to wait for the next season?
It would be very interesting to see how these sidecutradius differences change the board behavior.

I you were me would you spend 50% on top to get the 14.5 instead of 17m radius?

It is fairly intuitive....the board with the longer radius likes to be going faster before it will be happy carving at a high edge angle.

One nice thing about the longer radius is how well it skids turns. I know that this isn't the aim of most riders here but if you ride bumps and steeps then the longer radius skids turns very nicely without being too busy or hooky.

Would i spend more for the shorter radius? - yes. In fact I did. I had the Oxess BX board with a 17m radius and I liked it a lot. I just felt the radius was a bit long for the speeds I wanted to go on the trails I typically ride so I ordered a new board with the 14.5.

I got to ride the 14.5m board just one day and it was very good on firm carving conditions. You can read a more in depth report on the board porn thread.

 

dave

[Skahw]

38 minutes ago, David Kirk said:

Would i spend more for the shorter radius? - yes. In fact I did. I had the Oxess BX board with a 17m radius and I liked it a lot. I just felt the radius was a bit long for the speeds I wanted to go on the trails I typically ride so I ordered a new board with the 14.5.

I actually want to go as fast as possible with that board. Therefore 17m would fit maybe. But that might be too sketchy if the track is too narrow. difficult decision

[BlueB]

40 minutes ago, Skahw said:

I actually want to go as fast as possible with that board. Therefore 17m would fit maybe. But that might be too sketchy if the track is too narrow. difficult decision

To be honest, I wouldn't ride anything longer than 12m on softboots, unless racing BX. The BX racers mostly don't carve high edge inclinations (in the ways free carvers do) anyways... 

It still sounds a bit unclear to me if your intention is bombing the runs, or really carving. 

[David Kirk]

1 hour ago, Skahw said:

I actually want to go as fast as possible with that board. Therefore 17m would fit maybe. But that might be too sketchy if the track is too narrow. difficult decision

Speed is relative isn't it? To one person 25 mph is slow and to someone else, on different terrain, with different skill level and different gear it's too fast. So when you say "as fast as possible" that's hard to pin down.

I will say the the Oxess BX board with the 17 m radius will go very quickly and is unflappable. That said if you are not coming across the fall line at near 90° and not making big edge angles then the talk of carving performance is all moot. I get strafed at times by guys with boards 158 cm long and 8 m radius going 45mph nearly straight down the hill and the gear geometry matters little to them. They are going fast but not carving and in little control. My wife likes to say that they "change edges but not direction" and she's got that right.

I think in the end you'll have to try gear and see how it works for you.

[west carven]

howdy

any fool can go straight and fast... I would say get the spectre and learn how to carve it...

if you got the talent... after all this is a carving fourm… straightliners are our worst enemy...

[daveo]

13 hours ago, Skahw said:

I actually want to go as fast as possible with that board.

That's very disappointing to read. I hope something is missing from there.

People with that approach have a higher likelihood to end up in hospital or end up putting others in hospital.

Edited April 27, 2021 by daveo

[Skahw]

5 hours ago, daveo said:

That's very disappointing to read. I hope something is missing from there.

People with that approach often end up in hospital or end up putting others in hospital.

"as fast as possible" doesnt describe it that well. I do not want to go flatbase down the hill. Thats would be a little boring and flat base riding gives little control.

This Korua Shapes Yearning for turning video decribes my kind of riding/carving very well: 

(I bet you have seen it before, and some of you might not like it)

The thumbnail is a bit misleading as it shows an eurocarve / very low carve and thats not how they ride in the video.

Sometimes I am carving with 90 degrees to the fall line but that depends on the speed I am having atm. But most of the time I am carving like these guys in the video. Especially my posture is the same. I heavily lean forward and crouch most of the time to not get slown down by the wind.

That is what I mean with "as fast as possible". Still carving, not flat basing, but crouched carves down the hill. But I wouldnt do sidehits with this board. Thats what my korua board is made for. But the 1200mm edge doesnt feel like its enough.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Skahw
mentioning sidehits

[Skahw]

12 hours ago, David Kirk said:

I think in the end you'll have to try gear and see how it works for you.

Thats true. But the pandemic killed my part-time job. Sadly there is not enough money to switch the board if its not working out for me.

[daveo]

Well, that's reassuring!

It started to sound like you wanted to go for world record flat base bombs and I was hoping you had good health insurance and an even better lawyer.

@Skahw Can you show specs of the boards that were suggested for you? I'm curious to see.

Edited April 27, 2021 by daveo

[Skahw]

10 minutes ago, daveo said:

Well, that's reassuring!

It started to sound like you wanted to go for world record flat base bombs and I was hoping you had good health insurance and an even better lawyer.

Yeah, I had little time writing that "I actually want to go as fast as possible with that board"-post. That didnt describe it that well.

Better words would be: Long drawn out carves in a crouched position to maintain speed.

@daveoI love your new pb. That black on black style looks awesome!

Edited April 27, 2021 by Skahw