Technique opinions and suggestions

[tpalka]

I had such good success posting a few videos and getting great comments and suggestions (bomber thread ) that I'd like to try it again.

My girlfriend Lisa and I spent the past weekend trying a few things out, and I guess they can all be categorized as "double-arm carving", the SES look :) Both of our heel-sides are a bit static, and so we were experimenting with putting our hands down to force the up-down movement, etc.

The sequence shots with my comments are on my web site:

http://www.slackerdom.com/2005/03_double_arm_carving/

I'd love to get some comments on things to try, perhaps a verification that my comments are correct, what I'm missing. That'll help us both with critiquing each other's progress.

I know that the season is drawing to a close, but I'm planning to keep carving for at least a few more weeks, and then to visit A-Basin when I get tired of paddling in low-water. Thanks in advance,

tom.

[patrickfreen]

great to see pics like that, it shows so much. Just a small thought- it's cool to get both hands on the snow occassionally but my concern is that it may hinder "good" technique by programming bending at the waist, instead I would think that reaching for the snow with the outside hand and keeping the inside hand off the snow might help more with angulation from the hips. Just a thought.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by patrickfreen

great to see pics like that, it shows so much. Just a small thought- it's cool to get both hands on the snow occassionally but my concern is that it may hinder "good" technique by programming bending at the waist, instead I would think that reaching for the snow with the outside hand and keeping the inside hand off the snow might help more with angulation from the hips. Just a thought.

I'm not even close to being an expert (repeat! I'm not an alpine instructor - this is just my attempt to give some comments)... but I agree with Patrick... diving with your hands to the ground is probably not going to encourage good technique (even for extremecarving). You sequence shot here looks very much like that photo you had of you on your longboard skateboard with you bending "down" at your lower back - which I'm pretty sure is universally a bad idea. I think this comes from you trying to touch the snow with your hands. If you look at the photos in the extreme carving site, Jacques and Patrice have their lower back straight AND their arms are actually pulling "away" from the snow - the only reason their hands are touch is because they are so inclinated that their hands (pull away from the snow) are still hovering over the snow.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about when I say "pulling away their hands" stand next to a wall on your right side in an alpine stance about three feet away from the wall... pretend that wall is the slope... now try and stick you arms out to to touch the wall... there you break at the waist and your lower back is bent as you try to reach for the snow... Now stand only a few inches from the wall and go into a "extremecarve toeside" stance... you will notice that in order to get your right arm in the proper position (and not have it caught between you body and the wall) you need to "pull it away" from the wall and pinch you left hip in... that's what I'm talking about...

So my unexpert opinion is focus on getting you HIP low and THEN think about your hands.

[tpalka]

Yes, I agree with both of you -- the "both hands down" approach isn't really how I want to be carving all the time, it's more of an attempt to make the heel-side turns more dynamic.

For the most part I try to carve with my hands resting on my thighs, and on flatter stretches I do fast cross-unders, loading the board each turn so that it shoots under me to the other side, with hands behind my back (to isolate the upper body). I guess it's time to go back to keeping hands away from the snow -- it'll be difficult (psychologically) on the steeper slopes.

One of the things that I wanted to accomplish was a dynamic heel-side turn -- I felt like I was getting into position, and getting my hips pretty close to the snow actually, angulating, and then remaining in that position throughout the turn. It feels kind of static... and that's why the hands on snow. Looking at the SES '04 videos I really like the carvers who stay pretty low throughout their transitions -- not popping up on their feet and then getting down again, I guess that's partly what I was trying to emulate.

Thank you for your comments -- they're much appreciated! The more info I get, the more I think about the various parts of the turn. And it all turns into more fun and experimentation on the hill :)

tom.

[tpalka]

A shot from SES (month+ old, so things have changed) that illustrate what I try to do when not keeping hands on snow -- toe-side, photo by Scott Firestone (www.alpinecarving.com).

tom.

[tpalka]

...and heel-side:

[Allee]

When I was getting lessons from PSR he made me work on my toeside (my better carving side) by just extending my arm out to the side (at hip height and about a foot out from my body), pointing to where I wanted to go, just leaning the board with a still body and following my hand around the the spot. This works amazingly well, you don't force the hand to the snow but it just seems to go there automatically with the angulation.

I still have some issues with my heelside so it doesn't seem to work as well on heel, but I'm working on it!

He also emphasised being "long" with your body on the side closer to the snow, so you try to crunch down through your obliques on the non snow side, and stretch out on the snow side. This feels really weird to start with, it's only started to make sense to me over the last few days on snow.

Lisa's toesides actually look great, apart from the transitions. One thing that might help with that, is to try and get her to switch edges by throwing her front knee out and away from the board to initiate the turn, and then driving it back across the board to switch the edge. Another PSR tip that works.

Good luck!

[D-Sub]

I dunno, dude...lookin pretty damn good to me, and Lisa looks VERY good!

seriously...stop thinkin about it too much, as it doesnt appear that youre havin trouble

altho...odd that the photo you posted of you not touching snow has you touching snow?

just dont REACH for it. If its there, drag your hand ever so slightly.

you guys both look like good carvers! In fact, aside from pros...your LIsa has the best photos Ive ever seen of a female carver!

[lonerider]

Originally posted by tpalka

One of the things that I wanted to accomplish was a dynamic heel-side turn -- I felt like I was getting into position, and getting my hips pretty close to the snow actually, angulating, and then remaining in that position throughout the turn. It feels kind of static... and that's why the hands on snow. Looking at the SES '04 videos I really like the carvers who stay pretty low throughout their transitions -- not popping up on their feet and then getting down again, I guess that's partly what I was trying to emulate.

tom.

Hey, Tom... I went through the same issue with trying to get more dynamic on my heelsides because I felt like I was just sitting inside the carve. I think that issues I had (which sounds you had as well) is that I was thinking too much about my upper body (the angulation of my shoulder and the reaching of my hands) instead of thinking about my lower body (the flexion of my ankles, knees and hips) thing you want to learn how to do is cross-unders. There is a good article on BOL talking about it - basically it mentions that you have relatively little upper body movement and just rolling the board on it's edge with you hips, knees and ankles as it crosses-under you, you suck in your knees so your upper body doesn't pop up and quickly transition the body to the other edge (read Jack's article, it describes this much better than me).

For me... once I realized that the key to being more dynamic is in "my feet" and not my hands... it really started falling into place. That's just me and I'm really not much farther ahead of you in terms of alpine experience, so take it as that. I agree with D-Sub, you cross-over carves look excellent with a slight touch of the old Purecarve style.

[Jack M]

Those pics on the page linked in your first post show some <i>major league</i> reaching for the snow and bending at the waist. This is not a very balanced position. Your bottom two pics are much better, especially heelside. In the toeside pic you're still reaching for the snow, but at least you're not bending at the waist.

Reaching for the snow and/or bending at the waist simply isn't necessary. If your hand is touching the snow, it should be because the snow is right there next to you already. (ie, you're well inclinated)

A very common habit is initiating a turn from the head and shoulders down. This can be fun when the conditions allow, and is good to have in your bag of tricks. But it shouldn't be your main or only trick! When conditions get icy, initiating turns from the feet up is far more balanced and efficient.

Here's a few basic toeside pics where the turn was started from the feet up, without reaching down or bending at the waist:

http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_images/v.jpg

http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_images/x.jpg

http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_images/y.jpg

Notice in the second one, the curve of the body - it's the reverse of your "C" shape in your other thread. And in the third one, the knees are almost on the ground, but the upperbody is still upright and balanced. You could make this same carve with the two-hands-on-the-ground style, but you wouldn't have as good balance if the snow was icy, and you wouldn't be as poised and ready to snap into the next carve.

[Sean]

Tom,

Great pics- enjoyed riding with you and Lisa at the SES. IMO, Jack is absolutely spot on with his "bottoms up" approach to explaining a well executed carved turn. The more active you are with the joints in your lower body- namely your ankles, knees and to some extent, your hips, the less you are prone to want to use the torso and hands to get the board on edge and pointed in a new direction. A really simple way to emphasize that point is to simply ride with your hands on your hips or behind your back. This drill will not only limit the tendency to twist and break at the waist, but it also makes you very aware of how well you are initiating the turn with the lower joints. If the hands fly out to regain balance, take it down a notch on a mellower run until you can do linked carved turns without any upper body initiation. Easy to do it and gives the rider lots of feedback. See you next year.

-Sean

[tpalka]

Great -- thank you all for suggestions and comments!

I think that I didn't clearly explain what I was looking for -- I've been practicing cross-unders, and carving with hands behind my back, and I wasn't discounting these exercises or the importance of the lower body. The pictures were probably a bit misleading as well -- what I was really trying to do was to develop a more dynamic way of riding, with more movement in the upper body. Hard to think about that while keeping the upper body quiet at the same time. It wasn't about touching the snow... but I guess it kind of came across that way.

I think that what I ultimately want to achieve is being able to ride without using my hands at all, but still feel like I'm engaging all the four dimensions (left/right edge, front/back, up/down, and the fourth dimension of twisting a bit). I'll keep practicing riding with my hands on my thighs, and making the upper body "dynamic" through some torso pre-loading and looking into the coming turn.

Thanks again -- all suggestions were much appreciated!

tom.

PS. D-Sub: thanks. Not thinking "too much," I just find that if I think about some stuff, then I carve all night in my dreams, and believe it or not, it makes a difference when I hit the slopes in the morning. When I was learning to kayak, I must have rolled hundreds of times in my dreams. And what makes sports fun for me is trying to push the edge a bit every time I'm out, I must admit that if I were able to lay perfect carves on any kind of terrain I'd probably stop carving and find something else to do.

lonerider: You're absolutely right -- and I enjoyed the "3 feet from wall" exercise. I've been combining the cross-under technique with this hand-on-snow exercise, it's the only way I can make the board turn that fast -- it springs underneath my feet...

Allee: I'll pass the comments to Lisa, thanks!

Jack: Thanks esp. for the illustrations.

Sean: Thanks, and I do look forward to riding with you next year as well!

[D.T.]

I caught a glimpse of you and the gf two Saturday's ago at Monarch. You were near the bottom of Lower Tango and I was on the Garfield lift. I tried to find you the rest of the day but never saw you again. Monarch is an interesting place to carve. I found that either the runs were too flat (i.e. Lower Tango) or too narrow (Little Mog (?) under breezeway) for the board I was riding (14m or 15m SCR). I did like that there were absolutely no people there on a weekend day. The views were killer. Most of the lift attendants had no clue about an alpine set-up. They stood there staring at the board/boots.

While riding, I find if I focus on my breathing I get that Zen feeling and have a good sense about everything that I am doing. If I think about one individual aspect (i.e. transitions), other aspects lack (i.e. body positioning). I knew I recognized your name from Mountinabuzz. Think of carving like dropping a technical rapid. If you focus on that one hole or lateral wave, it will eat you alive. Take in your surroundings and go!

Dustin

[tpalka]

Dustin -- too bad we didn't meet, would have been fun to take a few runs together. I just got back from Monarch, went up for a few hours this morning to keep my hands away from snow, and it was nice. Fewer than 40-50 people on the whole mountain, it seemed, fairly hard snow, but empty empty slopes. Too bad they're closing this coming weekend! Let me know when you'll be in the area, be it to paddle or to carve :)

tom.

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by tpalka

PS. D-Sub: thanks. Not thinking "too much," I just find that if I think about some stuff, then I carve all night in my dreams, and believe it or not, it makes a difference when I hit the slopes

believe it 100% I actually learned frontside rock'n'rolls on vert that way. couldnt figure out the body movement all day one day. dreamed it that night and stuck the first one I tried the next day flawlessly and stylishly.

rock on! I think youre ridin pretty solid already. you and your woman both