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Rear Knee Trailing Behind On Heel Side Turns Problem


barryj
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Under most circumstances I'm finding my rear knee is lagging behind the turn and I have to consciously pull my rear knee in towards my front knee for best heel side results.  I running TD3 SW SI's  at 60/62 with 3/3 disks with Track 425 Pro's.   

Is  this a body angulation or rotation problem?    Pointing my hips doesn't seem to effect this problem.

I'm thinking of canting my rear cuff inward to keep my rear knee from falling outside the desired angle or lean...but not sure if that would hamper my riding when I'm using these boots with my other boards....on my work board - Swoard Dual or Pow board Moss PQ60.

Anybody else experienced this? 

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32 minutes ago, barryj said:

Under most circumstances I'm finding my rear knee is lagging behind the turn and I have to consciously pull my rear knee in towards my front knee for best heel side results.  I running TD3 SW SI's  at 60/62 with 3/3 disks with Track 425 Pro's with no heel lift.

Is  this a body angulation or rotation problem?    Pointing my hips doesn't seem to effect this problem.

I'm thinking of canting my rear cuff inward to keep my rear knee from falling outside the desired angle or lean...but not sure if that would hamper my riding when I'm using these boots with my other boards....on my work board - Swoard Dual or Pow board Moss PQ60.

Anybody else experienced this? 

How is 3° disk possible without heel lift? Is it set completely as cant? 

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6 minutes ago, BlueB said:

without heel lift

Hey B,   Sorry, Should have clarified;

Yes I have a 3' disk on rear binding for forward lean....... but I meant I have "no heel lift"  inside the boot.

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I'd try 2 different things, one at the time: 

1) Squat a bit lower. Appart from giving better stability and more angle/leverage at the knee, it would move your CG a bit back, placing more weight on the back foot. 

2) Turn the rear disk to give you a bit of outward cant (not inward). It would engage the heel edge a bit more. Leave the cuff canting as is, as you seem to like it on other boards. 

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4 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Turn the rear disk to give you a bit of outward

Hmm.....I see the logic here....but how much?  I have the 3' disk indention mark currently centered/aligned under my  heel plate.

So moving the 3 mark center of the disk  45' outward would give me max lean inward........so I should  probably start about halfway at around 22' ?.

By doing this I gotta lose around  a 1 degree or less of forward lean I'd suppose ?

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2 hours ago, barryj said:

Hmm.....I see the logic here....but how much?  I have the 3' disk indention mark currently centered/aligned under my  heel plate.

So moving the 3 mark center of the disk  45' outward would give me max lean inward........so I should  probably start about halfway at around 22' ?.

By doing this I gotta lose around  a 1 degree or less of forward lean I'd suppose ?

Incrementally. The center discs are in 5° increments. Start with moving it one notch (5°), you will lose very minimal heel lift, but should feel the difference of the canting.

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39 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

The center discs are in 5° increments. Start with moving it one notch (5°)

Biggie,

You mean to be referencing the center disk?   I thought Blue B was talking about rotating the 3' cant disk ?? 

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4 minutes ago, barryj said:

Biggie,

You mean to be referencing the center disk?   I thought Blue B was talking about rotating the 3' cant disk ?? 

same difference. The disc has the #'s that line up with the dot on the disc, right? To rotate the cant, you lift the cd off the cant and rotate. I would only rotate by one 5° notch at a time and see how it feels.

15 minutes ago, Corey said:

http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

Doesn't work on my phone, hopefully works in a browser. 

doesn't work on my laptop either. "Adobe flash no longer supported"

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Right, Flash is dead. There goes my beautiful MySpace page! 

If you place a top plate on a loose cant disc and rotate the cant disc around (no center disc or hardware), it should become obvious what's going on. Play begets learning. 😉

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7 hours ago, barryj said:

Under most circumstances I'm finding my rear knee is lagging behind the turn and I have to consciously pull my rear knee in towards my front knee for best heel side results.  I running TD3 SW SI's  at 60/62 with 3/3 disks with Track 425 Pro's.   

Is  this a body angulation or rotation problem?    Pointing my hips doesn't seem to effect this problem.

I'm thinking of canting my rear cuff inward to keep my rear knee from falling outside the desired angle or lean...but not sure if that would hamper my riding when I'm using these boots with my other boards....on my work board - Swoard Dual or Pow board Moss PQ60.

Anybody else experienced this? 

Yes, I've experienced pretty much what you describe.

I used to think about the way that I rode to achieve a carved turn as requiring that my knee on the outside of the turn had to be consciously pulled towards the inside of the turn. For a heel side turn that's the rear knee. For a toeside turn that's the front knee. 

I didn't try to "fix" this by altering my bindings, nor did I think it was a problem. I just learned to do it consistently to achieve carved turns.

A couple of years back I changed the body part I mentally concentrated on as I rode. I learned how to ride while being aware of the pressure on the soles of my feet. For a left turn I shift my weight to the left side of BOTH feet. For a right turn I shift my weight to the right side of BOTH feet. When I "feel" how I achieve that balance shift I find that the knee on the outside of the turn is being pulled slightly towards the inside of the turn. 

By keeping my binding setup neutral I think that I create a consistent base for turns in both directions. If I setup to favour a turn in one direction, then it will make it harder to turn the other way.

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10 hours ago, barryj said:

Pointing my hips doesn't seem to effect this problem.

Are you sure about this conclusion?  For me, the most effective way to affect whether the knees are splayed out or together on heel side is with hip rotation.   While my hips are rotated into the turn ahead of my toes, the knees come together.  When the hips trail the toes, knees splay out.  You can try it out just standing on the floor in your riding position and then rotate your hips right and left and watch it happen.  Sole pressure will roll right and left too, killing two birds with one stone. 

If this doesn't happen for your anatomy, then you're right above and should sort out canting to match where you knees are instead of trying to move them where they don't want to be.  But if it does, and you find your rear knee is opening up during the turn, I bet it's because the board turned but your hips didn't turn with it.  Happens to me all the time if I'm not concentrating on holding the carve; possibly a latent effect of so much time spent soft booting at low angles.

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It is interesting that there are many different opinion on everything we do... but this is what worked for me:

- I have inward cant & lift on both front and rear bindings. Rear inward cant allowed me to drive my rear knee more towards front knee which helped my riding (a lot of Japanese riders have inward cant and it has helped me with my leg structure 🦵)

- but it all comes down to the technique IMHO. Pointing the hip is one of the best way AND looking towards where you want to go (I actually look even further = helps to look behind me to make sure no straight liner comes after me with my periphery + automatically closes the hip + points the hip where it needs to be).

 

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14 hours ago, Corey said:

I share this page reluctantly. You can fall in a tech black hole. Still interesting to see how rotating the disc affects lift and cant: 

http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

Doesn't work on my phone, hopefully works in a browser. 

If you have an iPhone, try TrenchGear3D in the App Store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/trenchgear3d/id898156375

 

 

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Heelside for me has always had the distinct visual of a cat trying to land on its feet.  Ultimately that position is driven/steered at the hips as @johnasmo describes, however if I don't initiate IN SEQUENCE, it goes to shit quickly. E.g. hips already steering, but head looking across or down the fall line. Head, shoulders, torso, hips, hold. The slight nuance of how they get there is just as important. Arms pulling in slightly to confirm the shoulder rotation, torso pulling compacting my stance, hips driving closer to my knees, then the upper body unloads and extends, arms back out(shoulders relaxed), torso extends, hips driving legs extending  to "brace for landing".  Sound nutty, but has worked for me. Grab up some neighborhood cats and start dropping them. You'll see. 👍

 

 

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I second the hips theory too.  If you have a comfortable, stable, and neutral stance on the bindings, I recommend not faffing about with cuffs and canting unless it is preventing you from rotating your hips correctly.  Like you observed, compensating your heel side problems with weird boot canting is just going to steal from your toe side.  At those angles if you are getting you hips properly rotated and driven into the the hill, your knees have to follow.  Try it on the carpet tonight to convince yourself.

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On 3/13/2021 at 2:41 AM, johnasmo said:

If this doesn't happen for your anatomy

Thanks for all the info guys..........

Thinking about this I think my problem is anatomical.  I've been told by more than one professional bike fitter that my right leg/knee drifts/falls to the outside on every rotation. I attribute this to compensation for a vast amount of broken bones (all on the left side of my body)  over the years of competitive sports..... dislocated ankle, tib/fib, radius/ulna, wrist, collar bone and of course last years torn rotator cuff.

On 3/12/2021 at 4:12 PM, BlueB said:

2) Turn the rear disk to give you a bit of outward cant (not inward). It would engage the heel edge a bit more. Leave the cuff canting as is, as you seem to like it on other boards. 

I'm going to try BB's  suggestion and rotate the rear 3' cant disk ever so slightly counter clockwise so there's  some of that 3' ramp to the outside of my knee instead of directly behind.  That adjustment will hopefully provide some resistance to my knee trailing behind on heel sides.    We will see what the results are when I go back out next week.. 

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5 hours ago, barryj said:

Thanks for all the info guys..........

Thinking about this I think my problem is anatomical.  I've been told by more than one professional bike fitter that my right leg/knee drifts/falls to the outside on every rotation. I attribute this to compensation for a vast amount of broken bones (all on the left side of my body)  over the years of competitive sports..... dislocated ankle, tib/fib, radius/ulna, wrist, collar bone and of course last years torn rotator cuff.

I'm going to try BB's  suggestion and rotate the rear 3' cant disk ever so slightly counter clockwise so there's  some of that 3' ramp to the outside of my knee instead of directly behind.  That adjustment will hopefully provide some resistance to my knee trailing behind on heel sides.    We will see what the results are when I go back out next week.. 

Well that's settles it we are a freak of nature and what works for some doesn't work for others. Each and everyone has their own journey. And bodies are not built alike. 

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Understanding what is a common setup for people with normal anatomy is an essential precursor for making rational changes to accommodate known skeletal problems.

The journey to an individualized setup should not be a process of random experimentation. If you want it to be, don't be surprised if you end up frustrated, puzzled, and sore.

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20 hours ago, barryj said:

Thinking about this I think my problem is anatomical. 

Same here...when I use my hips to steer I have a lagging pendulum that always seems to be out of phase messing with my carving cadence. :biggthump

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On 3/14/2021 at 2:23 PM, barryj said:

I'm going to try BB's  suggestion and rotate the rear 3' cant disk ever so slightly counter clockwise so there's  some of that 3' ramp to the outside of my knee instead of directly behind.  That adjustment will hopefully provide some resistance to my knee trailing behind on heel sides.

BB was suggesting outward cant, not inward.  Outward canting will let you pressure the heel edge without needing to bring the knee in as far.  That means putting the tick part to the inside of your heel.  I run my rear disk rotated 5 degrees less than my binding angle, which results in just a pinch of outward cant.  Forcing the knee inward with the canting means your leg is going to be pushing back against it all the time, which will be applying pressure to toe side of the board all the time.  Heel side edge pressure and tilt will suffer. 

If your anatomy wants your knees to be splayed in order to be neutral, don't fight it.  Use canting to adjust to your anatomy, not change it.  I wouldn't worry about whether your knees look together or splayed as long as you cant the bindings so your inputs to the board are neutral at rest and you can pressure and tilt both edges equally from there.

You can sort out much of this with carpet carving at home, but also by paying attention to what part of the board slides out first when riding.  If there is asymmetry to it, where one part of the board loses grip toe side but not heel side or vice versa, then try adjusting canting to give your leg(s) more leverage against the edge that is losing grip.

I'm 15 years into this and still adjusting stuff each season.  Neutral and balanced can be hard to recognize at first, so we learn to compensate with contortions.

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On 3/12/2021 at 8:28 PM, barryj said:

Under most circumstances I'm finding my rear knee is lagging behind the turn and I have to consciously pull my rear knee in towards my front knee for best heel side results. 

Sorry for chiming in late, but is that really a problem? Personally, I usually pull my rear knee in automatically. However, this past season I have tried letting it trail and only pulling it in when necessary. When I remember to that, it gives me a kind of motional reserve to be used when needed.

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On 3/14/2021 at 1:23 PM, barryj said:

I'm going to try BB's  suggestion and rotate the rear 3' cant disk ever so slightly counter clockwise so there's  some of that 3' ramp to the outside of my knee instead of directly behind. 

Other way, as @johnasmohas explained, 2 posts above. Thick part of the cant somewhat towards the heel edge. 

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