Centering UPZ boots - whats wrong with this picture

[Chouinard]

If the pictures show your stance position then you might be able to drill thru the riser plate and spread out the mounting screws assuming you have more than four inserts front & back.

Overthinking - maybe not.

Courtesy of @Beckmann AG

from: The Athletic Skier by Warren Wirherell

[rjnakata]

Here is an example of F2 Intec RS with MP24 UPZ boots.  The overhang of boot toe & heel is equal over the edges using the "Fuego" method.  The bindings had to be slightly modded to accomplish this...it does look silly but it is what is required. 

 

From the book above: "The 80-20 equation explains why "perfect balance" is our goal.  When we say this we are not being "alignment fanatics" or techno geeks" 

[SunSurfer]

Determined the drag profile of my UPZ RC10s, 324mm shell. Marked a piece of paper where a right angle dropped from the contact point lands (c.f. Fuego method of determining boot position in binding and on board). See link photos for clarity.

https://imgur.com/a/wJC0YBo

On my 324mm shell, the sole midpoint mark is 4mm in front of the midpoint of the profile of the boot that would drag if the board/boot were at 90 degrees tilt, i.e. on its side.

When we mount bindings/boots on a board in a directional stance (not duckfoot) the sidecut curve means that the board is wider at the rear boot heel and the front boot toe.

[lonbordin]

58 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

See link photos for clarity.

https://imgur.com/a/wJC0YBo

On my 324mm shell, the sole midpoint mark is 4mm in front of the midpoint of the profile of the boot that would drag if the board/boot were at 90 degrees tilt, i.e. on its side.

That calculation seems close to my calculations. Are you measuring from the front of the toe piece or the front of the shell to mirror the rear of the shell? Just curious.

[Corey]

2 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Determined the drag profile of my UPZ RC10s, 324mm shell.

Interesting shape! Toe lift and outward cant dramatically pushes the cuff buckles out towards the heel edge. 

If I were a regular Skwal rider, I'd flip the front two buckles as they stick out surprisingly far. 

[SunSurfer]

2 hours ago, lonbordin said:

That calculation seems close to my calculations. Are you measuring from the front of the toe piece or the front of the shell to mirror the rear of the shell? Just curious.

I placed the set square as shown to touch whichever piece of boot it hit at points around the whole of the boot. I marked the paper at the point at the bottom of the vertical. I joined the dots to make the shape shown. I placed the set square by the boot midsole mark and marked that point. I drew straight lines for the long axis and to join the midsole marks. I measured the long axis either side of the midsole line. The only calculation is dividing 8 by 2 to get 4mm.

Edited March 14, 2021 by SunSurfer

[yamifumi]

Personally, I never liked the fuego box method unless I wanted to find out how low of an angle I can get on the board without booting out. 
 

For me (mondo 26), boot center mark has been very important for both UPZ AND MS.951 to center the boots on the bindings (boot center mark directly on the center of the binding disk) THEN set up the appropriate binding angle. Mine is not at as far of edge as possible for the front at 60/57.5 for 20cm waist. I am always afraid to loose an edge Bc of overhang (50% of the time I don’t have that much angulation but I do other 50%). Nothing worse than loosing an edge at full speed Bc of overhang at Superbee chair at Copper. But then I loose an edge due to my technique sometimes anyways (gotta minimize an error )

If I didn’t center the boots to bindings, I felt the board tends to go in the direction which I am more leaned towards on the flats (awkward feeling). That is why I am surprised to hear people don’t center boots to the bindings. But there is no right or wrong in this sports! IT IS HOW YOU LIKE IT!!! I know I got weird set ups i probably got weird leg shape.  

 

my 2 cents

Edited March 14, 2021 by yamifumi

[rjnakata]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:32 PM, SunSurfer said:

On my 324mm shell, the sole midpoint mark is 4mm in front of the midpoint of the profile of the boot that would drag if the board/boot were at 90 degrees tilt, i.e. on its side.

Here's a ASB post that jibes with your findings for MP 26.  

Also here is a mod for smaller boots that achieves more forward bias in TD3 SI's if needed.

Instead of Fuego boxes I use a square tool like this:  the black part goes under the board (raised on vises)  and the relationship between the edge and boot becomes apparent.

 

 

[michael.a]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:31 PM, Chouinard said:

If the pictures show your stance position then you might be able to drill thru the riser plate and spread out the mounting screws assuming you have more than four inserts front & back.

 

 

 

Hey Chouinard I forgot to ask 2 years ago but why do you suggest spreading out the mounting screws?

[Chouinard]

3 hours ago, michael.a said:

I forgot to ask 2 years ago but why do you suggest spreading out the mounting screws?

If I remember correctly your screws were biased to one side. If there is room in the insert pattern I try to spread out the purchase footprint to minimize the moment arm.

[Chouinard]

[lowrider]

Spreading out the screws also lessens the load on the inserts and centre disc. However if you rotate the disc so the slots are not perpendicular to the running length of the board you can sometimes better compensate for boot out but you loose the extra strength mentioned above.

 

[Corey]

Having the screws in the 4x4 pattern is perfectly fine for 99% of loading.

This is a minor detail, but makes us techies feel better. I do it when convenient, but my heel block (TD3 SI SW with UPZ boots) blocks one of the rear holes, so meh... 

[pokkis]

With normal size boots (27) blocking screws is not such biggie with Intec heel block but when you go smaller sizes more problems you got.

This is due heel block is same regardless what is your boot size. On Paula's 24 size one screw is always totally blocked by heel piece.

[John Gilmour]

IMHO it makes zero difference where the center line is on any boot. What matters is where is the curve of your actual heel and where are your toes. If you had x-ray vision and could look inside your boots.

think of it this way...

Do you really want your heel to lift when on edge or would you prefer your heel to be directly over the edge? 

Imagine if you could ride with unlimited heel inset or offset?  If your heel was unlimited "inset"..ie inbound heel then as you made a heel side turn your heel would lift into the air.

With unlimited offset you heel would prevent the edge from engaging as it dug into the snow early and levered and unset the edge. So IMHO the best is when your heel is low AND you have the ability to lower your COM.  

Having the ability to lower your COM and maintain a close relationship ion the rear curve of your own heel with the edge is a huge part of making clean carve.

Also while simple and fast as a right angle square is to determine overhang... it isn't the end all choice.

Sometimes with a tiny bit more overhang... you now can get the true heel (not the boot heel) over the edge and that gives you more cutting power... That trench now gives you more room before boot out.

Obs on ice you are not likely going to rail at 89 degrees.

Same goes for minor toe overhang on the rear foot for toeside.

You IMHO can not afford as much heel overhang because you have less edge forward of the heel so the actual trench created isn't as deep as say the trench depth further back on your rear toe for your toe edge.

So What I do is .... just adjust for decent Gilmour bias...then slowly adjust outwards until boot out and back off a bit. same for the toe.

Look at Any other board sport... check the centering of the feet , are top surfers centered ? Nope never. Are top skateboarders, nope never. should top snowboarders be centered nope never, not unless they want to limit their ability to carve to be average.

Board sports are inherently asymmetrical except for mono skis , and Riding turner Summer Skis dead parallel (which I was good  at and still noticed offset parallel was far superior ) . Since our left and a right turns are not identical we should not be centered. We should adjust to balance out out Biomechanical differences to select for the best combinations of variables to allow for the most balance, rotation, edging  and power during strong inclination. This applies pretty equally to both hard and soft boots. Most soft boot riders would carve better if they weren't totally flat (I'm guilty here as Im riding flat for convenience) , and most hardboot riders benefit from some sort of cant and lift compensation if for no other reason than to compensate for  less than optimally designed hard boots that force more can't and lift... but again even a perfectly designed hardboot would still result in a rider needing some can't and lift (but likely a bit less and obtaining optimal balance .

Edited February 10, 2023 by John Gilmour