6° front lift with UPZ boots and TD3?

[1xsculler]

UPZ size 28, F2 stepins, Fintec heels

If I have no lifts in my rear binding and I measure the angle inside my boots without the liner I have 8.5° heel lift. 
 

If I have 9° of toe lift as measured across the toe and heel of my front binding the inside sole of my boot is flat. 

IF you wear UPZ boots and you have a 6° front toe lift disc with your TDs and you measure the angle inside your boot without the liner I would guess it would indicate you actually have 3 to 4° heel lift. 

 

 

[Corey]

1 hour ago, 1xsculler said:

you actually have 3 to 4° heel lift. 

Which probably lines up with a Deeluxe boot with a 3 degree lift, which is VERY common. 

Don't target numbers*, adjust until you find a good feel/performance. 

* Until you have experimented and know what you want/like/need. Then numbers can be used to get a good starting point with new equipment. 

[1xsculler]

While we’re on this subject and I have been taking a look at my equipment I noticed that my front UPZ boot has the stock rear spring set up and I have been riding it in walk mode, probably forever. Why I don’t remember. Rear is AGSS. Not sure what that says. 
This is how my setup looks to have front foot flat inside the front linerless boot and my rear at 8.5° Of heel lift. 

[Jack M]

16 minutes ago, 1xsculler said:

While we’re on this subject and I have been taking a look at my equipment I noticed that my front UPZ boot has the stock rear spring set up and I have been riding it in walk mode, probably forever. Why I don’t remember. Rear is AGSS. Not sure what that says. 

[1xsculler]

Probably one of them. 

[1xsculler]

What ° of internal heel lift do Northwaves have?

[Beckmann AG]

15 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

What ° of internal heel lift do Northwaves have?

https://forums.alpinesnowboarder.com/topic/48884-mountain-slope-951/?tab=comments#comment-498860

[Carvin' Marvin]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:45 PM, 1xsculler said:

 

I'm gonna be honest, this is one of the funkiest looking setups I've ever seen. Personally I would be worried about the length of the screws you have holding that skyscraper of a toe lift onto the binding.  I'm no enginerd, but I would think some interesting shear forces/instability would start to come into play with that kind of height with only two screws.  Maybe you're onto something completely new, maybe its Maybelline. 

[1xsculler]

9 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

I'm gonna be honest, this is one of the funkiest looking setups I've ever seen. Personally I would be worried about the length of the screws you have holding that skyscraper of a toe lift onto the binding.  I'm no enginerd, but I would think some interesting shear forces/instability would start to come into play with that kind of height with only two screws.  Maybe you're onto something completely new, maybe its Maybelline. 

I agree that this looks stupid but do you know of any other way to get my front foot flat, let alone a few degrees of toe lift in front? I used to ride with only one of those 1/2” black spacers which gave me 6° of toe lift measured across the heel and toe of my bindings which computed to about a 4” heel lift inside the boot which I think contributed to my constantly burning front quad. With this stupid looking setup my front quad lasts much, much longer  

When you guys ride Deeluxe boots with a TD, 6° toe lift disc in front what’s the angle of the sole of your foot or the inside of your boot without the liner?

Do most of you ride with front toe lift and if you do how do you achieve it?

[Jack M]

I'm with Marvin.  That much toe lift should not be necessary.  You want your knee in front of your ankle, especially at the beginning of the turn.

[bigwavedave]

I'm gonna agree with Marvin (and Jack) here. Never seen a setup like that. Looks scary.

I would forget about measuring numbers/degrees and try starting where others have already landed with their setups. Then tweak for comfort from there. Everybody here talks degrees because that's the way Bomber bindings are setup.

For F2's: Start with 1 large block toe lift in the front. Put a smaller lift in the rear by stacking 2 of the thin cant wedges and 1 thin wedge.
Then get those boot cuff cants balanced (they still look off). Maybe start by getting the cuffs symmetrical and neutral (no inward or outward cant).  Probably a good idea to get the same spring system in both boots too.

Put your feet in the shells (sans liners) mounted in the bindings and adjust the boot cuff cants and/or your binding cant/lifts to get your legs somewhat centered in the boot cuffs.

At your weight and age, you might want something with more flex like dgss with soft springs. You can set the front more upright and preset the rear with some forward lean if it feels good.

Then you can make incremental changes from there to tweak for personal preference.

PS: I think Cory was using 6° (large lifts) front (toe) and rear (heel) with UPZ's. That might have worked for me if I widened my stance. So you might play with stance width while your at it. Or at least take one of those big lifts from the front and put it under your rear heel. It should achieve the same thing as you've got. 

 

[lordmetroland]

Happy to be the idiot sitting at the feet of the masters here. Maybe a one line "what is the whole point of toe/heel lift" statement might help our friend? Clearly it's not "to make the front foot flat by canceling out boot ramp which would require a ridiculous amount of wedging." 

[JRAZZ]

I was typing up the same question...

 

For me what worked was following Beckmann's article in the following way: I tried to be able to ride straight while line footing or just standing up. It was harder and weirder than I thought. What I did (after way too much time fussing) was going to the bunny slope, midweek, in the morning where I was the only one there. I loped off to the side started off with both feet flat and just did run after run while changing one thing at a time. I ended up with the front foot flat and the back foot with heel lift and outward cant. It's super weird but every time I try to move away from that I feel super uncomfortable.

I know time is scarce and you want to ride but spending a day figuring out your correct stance is really important. You won't find the answer here. It's out there on the slope.

 

I still feel uncomfortable riding hardboots but at least now it's not the setup.

[Jack M]

47 minutes ago, lordmetroland said:

Maybe a one line "what is the whole point of toe/heel lift" statement might help our friend?

Short version: To make riding in hardboots more comfortable and natural at a stance wide enough to improve mobility, stability, power, and range of motion.  What's a "wide enough" stance?  Approximately as wide as the measurement from the floor to the middle of your kneecap while standing in bare feet.  Fiddle from there.

Long version:

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/canting-and-lift.pdf

[lordmetroland]

45 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Short version: To make riding in hardboots more comfortable and natural at a stance wide enough to improve mobility, stability, power, and range of motion.

Brilliant. As binding angles and stance width increase, heel/toe lift will also need to increase (to some limit that's presumably less than the set of encyclopedias that our gentle poster is currently experimenting with) to maintain the comfort/power balance. This also - at least in my diseased mind - answers the question in another thread of why softbooters don't generally employ toe/heel lift: they don't need it. But as stance width increases, they will go looking for cant. The Beckmann manifesto is very useful, particularly the bits about DIY log splitters. 

[bigwavedave]

Visualize Da Vinci's anatomical man for how toe & heel lift and stance width interact.

[lordmetroland]

3 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

Visualize Da Vinci's anatomical man for how toe & heel lift and stance width interact.

And naked snowboarding. I'm supportive of this suggestion.

[bigwavedave]

2 minutes ago, lordmetroland said:

And naked snowboarding. I'm supportive of this suggestion.

Just make sure your mask covers your nose

[Corey]

3 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

PS: I think Cory was using 6° (large lifts) front (toe) and rear (heel) with UPZ's.

There's a bell-shaped curve. I seem to be closer to the tail than the middle extreme. Most people here seem to settle around 6 front, 3 rear degrees of binding lift with UPZ boots. The setup shown above is even further out along that tail. 

The ExtremeCarve group* seems to be fanatical about flat bindings regardless of boots. 

* I know it's unwise to group people like that, but it's unusual to hear a self-proclaimed "EC rider" suggest any toe/heel lift. 

[Jack M]

1 minute ago, Corey said:

The ExtremeCarve group* seems to be fanatical about flat bindings regardless of boots.

I haven't perused the Swoard forums in years, but that was the dogma last I knew.  The argument at the time was that you don't need cant/lift because the board bends and puts your feet in a natural position.  Well, I simply cannot disagree more.  There's plenty of time when we're riding and the board is not bent like that.  Like in between carves, and gliding, and whatnot.  I actually had to try flat/flat last year in order to try a ****** *** prototype (oops, was that out loud? shhh) because the cants hadn't been developed yet, and I just hated being set up like that.  Had to go to a narrower stance just to make it tolerable, and that's no good.  It robbed me of the benefits I listed above.

[SunSurfer]

 

Another way of looking at how lift and cant can help or hinder you.

I think I've sent this your way before @1xsculler

[Carvin' Marvin]

11 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

When you guys ride Deeluxe boots with a TD, 6° toe lift disc in front what’s the angle of the sole of your foot or the inside of your boot without the liner?

Do most of you ride with front toe lift and if you do how do you achieve it?

Ok I've got my helpful hat on tonight.  Just to clarify when we are talking about degrees of heel and toe lift we are talking about degrees of lift added to the binding, not in the actual boot sole.  So Corey rides UPZ with 6 degree toe and heel lift.  This means that he has the bomber 6 degree cant plates under both bindings.  This DOES NOT mean that he has 6 degrees of actual heel and toe lift through the soles of his feet.  Like Metro said, the goal is not to cancel out the boot ramp, if it was why would they put all that ramp in the boot anyway?

Having the front foot completely flat relative to the board will not help you accomplish anything.  You are just losing valuable leverage.  Remember the goal is to head forward down the hill so it helps to be leaned forward a bit on the board.

I ride the same boots and bindings as you. I use the large lift block under my rear heel, and another large lift block under my front toe.  I find this provides me with a super balanced position on the board in relation to my body mechanics.  Try that setup and see what you think.  

I'm not even sure I could carve your setup well.  Its such a far departure from what most people with normal skeletons actually ride.  If it takes Mt Fuji underneath your front toe to alleviate quad burn, then the problem is something critical in your technique.

Please feel free to PM me with any questions.  I can also send pictures if that helps.

[1xsculler]

Ok, thanks for the info. For now I’m going to let my front quad celebrate. I’ve never carved better and that’s not saying much but I’m feeling very good about it. I now need to find a setting to give my rear quad a breather. I know, I know, technique, technique. No, I’m not sending vids yet. Maybe the next time one, or more, of my grandkids are with me. 
Not that anybody cares BUT If you’re riding UPZs with TDs and you have a 6° TD disc producing front toe lift and a 6° TD disc producing rear heel lift the soles of your feet are: front 4° heel lift and rear about 12° heel lift, just sayn. That’s about what my digital level says. 

[lordmetroland]

13 minutes ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

Ok I've got my helpful hat on tonight. 

So weird. I also tried my helpful hat on earlier for this thread. It quickly felt awkward and uncomfortable and I was relieved to replace it with the careworn a**hole hat. 

[Beckmann AG]

27 minutes ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

... why would they put all that ramp in the boot anyway?

To accomodate the Intec heel module. There is no other practical reason for those boots to have so much ramp.

Of course you can't change it, so you can't know whether or not the ramp you have is the ramp you need to ride to your potential.

Instead, your potential as an athlete and rider is limited by a design concession.

FWIW, internal ramp of the front boot on the front binding should be somewhere around +2,+3.

 

Ski boots need a certain amount of ramp so that the bend in that platform can easily be concentrated 'ahead of center'. This allows the skier to hold the ski in reverse camber through the duration of their turn.

Otherwise everyone on skis would be rolling over backward due to premature rebound.

Snowboard hardboots and bindings should be configured to do the same. That might mean different internal ramp angles on each boot, depending on skeletal structure and movement philosophy.

The highest function of ramp tuning/heel and toe lift is to ensure that the board sees a neutral pressure change along it's length when the rider moves through their range of motion, as they flex and extend their legs.

More often than not, heel and toe lift are used to accommodate impractical boot geometry, or fashionable stance configurations.

In general, if your equipment configuration is drastically different than the established norms, it means you're chasing the wrong variable, you have a structural anomaly, or you're trying to do something that nobody else wants to do.

Yet.

If ever.