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TD3 Setup - What am I doing wrong?


barryj
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The new Thirst is a 19.5 waist and my boots are mondo 28......  for comparison I ride 65/60 on my K168 with a 20.5 stance 

I took the TD3's toe and heel pieces off the rear binding to be able to adjust the center disk/angle or  Fuego angle to avoid boot out.....but on the rear binding the angle I see that doesn't hit my  faux Fuego tool  is 70 degrees.     Does that sound normal?                               

imo it  seems an excessive binding angle for a 19.5 waist board and mondo 28 boots.

Am I missing something?   

 

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2 hours ago, barryj said:

Am I missing something?  

Yes. How high an edge angle do you regularly achieve in your riding? Unless you're regularly putting your board on edge perpendicular to the snow you don't need absolutely no boot/binding bail edge overhang.

Set the board up with your normal binding angles and stance. Follow Mark's instructions. Do not overthink it.

Either

a) Go ride it and get the Thirst smile on your dial.

OR

b) Tilt and bend the board onto the edge angle where the boot or bindings first touch the snow. Measure the angle. Obsess about the angle, and whether you're a good enough rider to get that high on edge. Sleep on it. Go ride it and get the Thirst smile on your dial.

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I hadn't taken apart my TD3's in a couple of years...they were all set up with Gilmour bias and Mark said to set this up centered so I took it out and here we are.

Just wondering more than anything if I got the base plate upside down or backwards or I'm reading the wrong side of the center disk......        because it just doesn't seem it should take a 70 degree angle  on a 19.5 waist board with 28 mondo boots to avoid bootout.......... 

Edited by barryj
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Yes, if you offset the rear boot towards the toe side and aim for zero overhang, you will need to run very high angles. I suspect there's a healthy clearance to the heel? 

I try to put my toes near the toe edge and heels near the heel edge so I can run the lowest angles I can. Because of sidecut, boot angle, boot length, that means my front boot is shifted towards the toe edge, and rear boot towards the heel edge. 

@SunSurfer nails it above too. A little overhang is fine for most. If/when you boot out, increase your angles a bit. Donek has an excellent video on angle, overhang, and board width, but I can't find it right now. Something about board width... 

I've noticed that people that ride in softer snow are much more tolerant of overhang than people that ride on hard snow. Boot-out is immediate and painful on ice, while it's much more progressive in soft snow. 

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Forget about the degrees and just set up like everyone says with toes and heels near and equidistant from the edge. A little overhang is ok. Forget about bias. Each of my boards are different enough that I try to avoid having to move bindings from board to board.  When starting from scratch, I usually set the rear boot angle first and then set my forward foot with 5° splay.

I have M28 boots and ride close to 57° rear, 62° front, on 20.5cm waist without overhang.

Just go ride it! :eplus2:

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21 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

Forget about the degrees and just set up like everyone says with toes and heels near and equidistant from the edge. A little overhang is ok. Forget about bias. Each of my boards are different enough that I try to avoid having to move bindings from board to board.  When starting from scratch, I usually set the rear boot angle first and then set my forward foot with 5° splay.

I have M28 boots and ride 57° rear, 63° front, on 20.5cm waist without overhang.

 

I think what MAY be throwing him off VISUALLY is the warp sidecut, which he is comparing to the symmetrical K168.  There is a lot of extra real estate on the back foot heel side.  He's tying to visually justify binding symmetry on an asymmetrical board.  Toe side has the appearance of being "too close" so the natural response is to move it back...

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8 hours ago, Corey said:

toes near the toe edge and heels near the heel edge so I can run the lowest angles I can. Because of sidecut, boot angle, boot length, that means my front boot is shifted towards the toe edge, and rear boot towards the heel edge. 

Yeah...I see that necessity now and will run with it.

My pass was blacked out over the holidays and after that I had family commitments.... but my plan is to get it out this Tues. and will post an update.

:biggthump

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Depends on your budget, if you get into UPZ's, your shells will be shorter, and you might keep your familiar stance, or forget about Gilmore bias (how's john doing usually he's around) center the boot to the edges, and or turn more forward, boot out isn't an option in the NE. 

Great profile picture

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10 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Or, you could try a longer stance. That would give you a little more board width where the bindings are. 

I'm 6'0" (182cm), and started riding hardboots at a 50 cm stance. I'm now out to 56cm, and find I have better stability and bump absorption.

Agreed wider does feel more stable and if you are lifted/canted appropriately.  I believe that you will have a larger range of motion with your body with a wider stance.  I am 5'11 and riding a 21.5 inch/55cm stance 6 degree toe/lift, 6 degree heel lift.  

When I was riding 19.5ish stances, I used 3 degree lifts.  Comfort wise I both stances feel great, the wider one has better performance for me.

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1 hour ago, dredman said:

Agreed wider does feel more stable and if you are lifted/canted appropriately.  I believe that you will have a larger range of motion with your body with a wider stance.  I am 5'11 and riding a 21.5 inch/55cm stance 6 degree toe/lift, 6 degree heel lift.  

When I was riding 19.5ish stances, I used 3 degree lifts.  Comfort wise I both stances feel great, the wider one has better performance for me.

What boots do you wear David?

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On 1/3/2021 at 5:50 AM, barryj said:

I hadn't taken apart my TD3's in a couple of years...they were all set up with Gilmour bias and Mark said to set this up centered so I took it out and here we are.

Just wondering more than anything if I got the base plate upside down or backwards or I'm reading the wrong side of the center disk......        because it just doesn't seem it should take a 70 degree angle  on a 19.5 waist board with 28 mondo boots to avoid bootout.......... 

I am 65 front and 67 back on an 18cm waist with size 29 boots.....

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On 1/3/2021 at 7:28 AM, Corey said:

I try to put my toes near the toe edge and heels near the heel edge so I can run the lowest angles I can. Because of sidecut, boot angle, boot length, that means my front boot is shifted towards the toe edge, and rear boot towards the heel edge. 

 

I remember this discussion in another thread too. In order to get boots balanced on a board, all my sidewinder setups have required that the front foot have both toe & heel blocks moved almost all the way forward on the baseplate, and all the way back on the baseplate for the rear foot. Not sure if this is a UPZ/MS recessed heel thing or if it's the same for Deeluxe.

@barryj I thought you liked wider boards, like 20-20.5?

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Center the boots with heal & toe to the edges as said above.  I have big ole 29.5 Track 700 feet and with SI sidewinders on 6* cants I run 60/60 on my Kessler K168 with 200mm stock width with no overhang.  Flush in the rear and a little room to spare up front.

kessler.jpg

Edited by skidad62
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14 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

front foot have both toe & heel blocks moved almost all the way forward on the baseplate, and all the way back on the baseplate for the rear foot.

Dave - so isn't that "G" bias?   

15 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

I thought you liked wider boards, like 20-20.5?

I think I like 20 waist boards..........Mark is telling me otherwise!

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1 hour ago, barryj said:

Dave - so isn't that "G" bias?   

Not at all. The heel & toe of each boot are equidistant from the edge of the board (be it a little overhang or a little under). Sometimes I allow for a wee bit of overhang on the rear boot, and with my 5° splay, the front foot is just in from the edges. If you feel you're pushing snow with your boots in a carve, or not getting a solid edge, check your tracks from the chair lift. Should be equally thin lines, easy to spot if one is wider. If you feel it's interfering with your carving bliss, make an adjustment.

I believe G bias was front heel, and rear toe closer (biased) over the edge. I never found it useful or necessary, at least on modern boards.

1 hour ago, barryj said:

  I think I like 20 waist boards..........Mark is telling me otherwise!

Talking you into a skinnier board is just a way for him to save money on materials and shipping. :eplus2:  

He may be right about skinnier boards, but my old knees prefer the angles I can ride on a 20-20.5 waist. 

 

p.s. I use standard bails. Don't know if you'd have the same issue having to shift the toe & heel blocks to the extreme ends of the base plate using stepins.

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9 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

my old knees prefer the angles I can ride on a 20-20.5 waist. 

I'm happy riding at 65/60 with this 19.5 waist if it works...but yeah I agree and will go wider on the next order if I get star struck tomorrow with the Thirst epiphany I keep hearing about!

14 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

Not at all. The heel & toe of each boot are equidistant from the edge of the board (be it a little overhang or a little under)

Got it - :biggthump

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1 hour ago, bigwavedave said:

p.s. I use standard bails. Don't know if you'd have the same issue having to shift the toe & heel blocks to the extreme ends of the base plate using stepins.

Yes. With step in Sidewinders and M28 boots, I have the front foot heel block as far forward as it goes and still can't center the boot between edges. It actually blocks the 4x4 screws! 

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This may be a little off-topic, but if I want to run my rear binding (TD3) with 6 degree heel lift and no canting, does that mean the tallest part of the cant plate is directly under my heel? I may have mis-understood how these are supposed to be setup and I can't seem to find any info out there regarding setup.

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2 minutes ago, Kurt Swanson said:

This may be a little off-topic, but if I want to run my rear binding (TD3) with 6 degree heel lift and no canting, does that mean the tallest part of the cant plate is directly under my heel? I may have mis-understood how these are supposed to be setup and I can't seem to find any info out there regarding setup.

yes

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1 hour ago, Kurt Swanson said:

6 degree heel lift and no canting

Line up the engraved dot in the cant disc with your binding angle, or close.  

Easy graphical interface if you want to quantify, though it doesn't work on my phone: http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

Search for TD2 Tweak O Matic if that doesn't work. 

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