Carv digital ski coach

[SunSurfer]

https://getcarv.com/

Anyone tried this for skiing or borrowed a setup and ridden a carving snowboard with the technology?

[Beckmann AG]

Have not.

Closest was the use of a digital gait analysis unit for boot ramp tweaking back around '97.

 

Would you like an opinion on efficacy?

[lowrider]

I can see it now someone hits you and the cops want your boots. How did this become something people will crave ? Wonder what happens if i go telle ?

[SunSurfer]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Have not.

Would you like an opinion on efficacy?

Pretty clear from multiple on line video reviews from a range of sources that the sensor system is able to give accurate pressure distribution, direction, angulation, acceleration and location information. Android and i-phone versions of the app are available. The product has been developing over a few years now.

Their website FAQ section that there is no snowboard version, but I suspect they haven't thought about the niche area of alpine carving snowboarding.

So how useful would the app be, given that we ride with our boots off the axis of direction of movement, with both boot lift and sometimes boot cant?

I suspect that the data, even with the app setup for skiers could provide useful data to an instructor or racing coach for an alpine snowboard rider. The tech will probably appeal to at least some of the engineers here! @Corey
 

Conjecture is of limited use. Someone who can carve well actually trying it would be illuminating.

@Jack M
a different type of review?

[Corey]

I previously worked at a place that made fabric-based pressure sensors similar to what's likely in that footbed. We could map pressure distributions before and after orthotics were in place. Or wheelchair cushions, or prosthesis sockets, or whatever. Combine that with a IMU unit and you have more data than you know what to do with! 

I'd go see Mr. Beckman first, as the output of the above system is directly related to how they interpret the data. 

[lowrider]

Doesn't matter what it's designed for i think just comparing the data from any good rider will give pretty good data to compare with a beginner. If nothing else it could prove my theory that everyone peddles.

[Beckmann AG]

15 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Conjecture is of limited use.

Conjecture is guessing.

I'm not guessing.  

The system, as described and as I understand the presentation, will 'tell' you 'what is'.  It will not, however, tell you 'why is', at least not in the kind of mechanical terms that will serve to remove actual obstacles to progress.

For instance:  Balance on skis is a lot more than where you are front to back. If a skier trends toward a 'back of center' location (as many do) there will be several distinct reasons for that. Simply reminding that skier to 'get forward', or to feel contact at the fronts of their shins, or the balls of their feet, does nothing to resolve why they were back of center in the first place.

What it does do, is encourage that skier to adopt a contrived posture that fits a particular visual mold, one that has been widely accepted as a mark of 'good skiing'.

Having more data on what's going on underfoot, being on skis or snowboard, is a good thing. The problem comes in how you make use of that data.

If you want to make yourself look like what consensus says is a good rider, then filtering the data toward that goal will most likely get you there. 

I suspect, however that you'd prefer to 'know' definitively what's going on under your feet, and would like to overlay that on your Strava map, to see how and when things were changing.

That kind of information will be useful in the 'right hands'.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Beckmann AG

[scottishsurfer]

Never used anything like this but i would be very intrigued to know the know the kind of forces im putting through a set of bindings i get the feeling the loads are way higher than what most soft boot bindings are tested to....

I'm not entirely sure it would be better from a training point of view than say video analysis of watching yourself back in slow motion video. but i guess if you dont have someone to film itd be better. Tech like beckmann says is really usefull if you know how, I used to use a gps watch when practising mtb DH where id use it to work out timings, cornering speed and what line choice was better than another since sometimes the line that felt fastest wasnt .

[cobrien]

On 12/7/2020 at 5:14 PM, SunSurfer said:

Pretty clear from multiple on line video reviews from a range of sources that the sensor system is able to give accurate pressure distribution, direction, angulation, acceleration and location information. Android and i-phone versions of the app are available. The product has been developing over a few years now.

Their website FAQ section that there is no snowboard version, but I suspect they haven't thought about the niche area of alpine carving snowboarding.

So how useful would the app be, given that we ride with our boots off the axis of direction of movement, with both boot lift and sometimes boot cant?

I suspect that the data, even with the app setup for skiers could provide useful data to an instructor or racing coach for an alpine snowboard rider. The tech will probably appeal to at least some of the engineers here! @Corey
 

Conjecture is of limited use. Someone who can carve well actually trying it would be illuminating.

@Jack M
a different type of review?

As an engineering student looking at comparing dynamics models of snowboarding to data, this would decrease the amount of instrumentation to be developed for the purpose. Definitly Intriguing.

[javajive]

I got CARV late in the season last year so I am far from knowing my way around it. You have multiple pressure sensors in each footbed which are wired to a transmitter outside your boot. That is received and analyzed in your phone and a coaching voice transmits to your earpiece. The setup is all taped into place so it would be a hassle to transfer to different boots. I have only used it on my alpine ski boots. I don't know of any snowboarding program for it but I would think the European racers are playing with it. 

You can use it any way you like but easiest is to run an overall analysis during warm up runs then isolate whatever you want to work on. It is real time so you immediately respond to pressure changes, timing, edge angles etc. One often moves asymmetrically when comparing feet. This part is the most useful, hard data you can change every turn and you can tell if your focus is wandering. 

At the end of the run it will give you a score and tips to make changes. As Beckmann says that is relative to an ideal form which is a group of top end skiers. Mostly European but I think includes Ted Ligety if you want to go that route. I don't use it skiing socially or off piste. Skiing solo on groomers it is a lot of fun and a bit compelling. If your objective is edging 60 deg and the monitor says you are 50 deg you really get after it. You can subscribe to get it saved anonymously so you can track your progress and compare to others. 

Talking to shop guys before I signed up, their take was a good coach would be better. My thought was I don't know any never mind over a whole season. Some instructors are concerned it could take away business but I think a combination of instant feedback and an educated eye is the best of both worlds. 

 

[st_lupo]

For info: A friend has this for skiing and loves the system.  I contacted Carv to see what their plans were for alpine/racing snowboards, and given the small size of the global community, their response wasn't a surprise :

>>>

Hi Jason, 

 

Thank you for getting in touch! Unfortunately, our data models are built around the pressure and motion of downhill skiing, so our units aren't compatible with snowboarding. We are keen to really perfect the space we are in right now and truly understand technical skiing, but this is something we might look into for the future!

 

If you have any further questions or queries please do not hesitate to ask!

 

Best wishes,

Katherine

— Customer Success Team | Carv by MotionMetrics

<<<

[Pat Donnelly]

 

[Jonny]

The Ligety video is interesting. It may be difficult to ski like him - highest edge angle at midpoint of the turn, but if that's what you're aiming for it you can do it. My two sessions with (borrowed) CARV footbeds in my boots that's what I aimed for, and could extend the period of full-rail very late, as long as I was on relatively straight skis (old 23m Head FIS GS skis). If I tried to extend the period of deepest angle on carving skis, though (14m Head iTitan) they would either wimp out completely or blast me into the air at the transition. The main takeaway for me was that my old-school A-Frame style was inefficient and that aiming for more even edge angle inside to outside ski felt weird but was much more secure.

On snowboards, most of us ride like that anyway, in fact get highest edge angle even later - well after the midpoint of the turn. What was most impressive to me is how consistent his technique is no matter the pitch.

[st_lupo]

I'm guessing that Ligety has put in way over his 10000 hours.