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Stretches & exercises for boarding-related back pain?


Dan

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5 hours ago, Corey said:

Oh, wow, this is still from then? Yeah, time to get things moving properly again! I struggled with varying degrees of back pain (stiff/sore to can't walk) for almost 20 years before a friend convinced me to try lifting heavy stuff to build muscle mass. I didn't know I'd also learn to move through a wider range of motion as well. 

I was fine all summer, and it's not nearly as acute as last year, but yeah, I seem to have re-aggravated the same area that I screwed up last year. 

On 1/22/2020 at 10:52 AM, Keenan said:

Dr. Desai in Beaverton.  I had compressed and deteriorating discs in my lower back with lots of tingling sensations (sciatica).  He cured me.  

 

https://restorepdx.com/  

Thanks Keenan! I'll check him out. 

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7 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

 

If you have normal range of motion out of the ankle joints, then using BTS v riding with cuffs locked might help. On the other hand, if you ride with the boots softened to allow for greater range, that can present other problems. Specifically, change in cuff contact pressure is a means for the brain to sense what's happening, and to act accordingly. If the boots are too soft, it's possible to get too far 'over the line' toward some form of high stress loading before you realize, (on the subconscious level) what's happening, and by the time you do, it's too late for evasive maneuvering.

 

Slightly off main topic but  echoeing well what Mr. Beckmann is saying.  (even if more ski boot orientated)

May also work for the "Booster Strap" Topic in this forum. Long but worth the read I think.

https://skimoves.me/2015/02/13/the-shocking-truth-about-power-straps/

For those interested in biomechanics riding planks, that website is goldmine.

Edited by RoroSnow
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6 hours ago, RoroSnow said:

May also work for the "Booster Strap" Topic in this forum. Long but worth the read I think.

https://skimoves.me/2015/02/13/the-shocking-truth-about-power-straps/

Wait, so having one strap in place on a ski boot restricts your ankle motion more than having all the buckles undone? [/sarcasm]

That article is built on very shaky foundations. Lots of big words in play to say that you shouldn't couple ankle movement to the rear spine of the boot. You know, LIKE SKI BOOT BUCKLES DO. 

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6 hours ago, Dan said:

I don't have any video of me riding, but I was able to dig up a couple of photos. 

This heelside photo is most applicable because heelside is where I'm tweaking my back. This is steeper than it looks and I felt like I was all over the place, so it's probably a good example of what I do when things are not going great. 

58a15725719d9_image.jpg.4778e8367f2f8ee2

 

Mellow toeside - I don't think this angle is very helpful for our current discussion though. 

dy49nno.jpg

Helpful. 

In both photos, your torso is cantilevered ahead of your hips, which means any resultant shock loads incurred will be absorbed to a greater extent with muscle than with skeletal structure.

Some forward angle is expected, and normal. The problem is it doesn't take too much angular change ahead of 'safe' to predispose oneself to injury, given the sometimes unexpected load spikes.

To illustrate this point, mimic the posture from either photo indoors, using the consistent 9.8m/s/s as a consistent load. See how long you can stand there without discomfort, than flex your knees up and down a few times  to generate slight shock loading (without altering the rest of your posture) and see what happens.

OR maybe just standing there will be enough.

In the heelside photo, your knee flexion is disproportionately uneven, and it appears the center of your front knee is offset somewhat toward the heelside edge. This suggests that much of your heelside edge tilt is derived by moving your center into the turn, rather than originating at the feet and/or knees. In this situation, in order to move the center into the turn without fully toppling at turn entry, it's necessary to counterbalance that movement with an opposite movement of the shoulders. That arrangement moves you from skeletal to muscular support, and that will predispose you to back injury in certain circumstances.

 

Worth noting that in both photos you appear 'normal'.

Something else to consider is that for many riders, the greater loads are seen later in the turn, when the joints are already close to full flexion. As such, there aren't too many options to 'leak' excess energy from the system, other than through structural deformation of the surface, or the rider. As you continue with your riding, pay attention to both postural effect, and also consider that the greater amount of joint flexion should take place when loads are lowest, and the lesser amount of  joint flexion should take place when loads are highest. And that the flexion/extension process should be progressive, rather than sudden/static.

 

6 hours ago, RoroSnow said:

website is goldmine.

HInt: It's pyrite.

 

Edited by Beckmann AG
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The thing about alpine snowboarding is you get more leverage out of your body because both feet are connected to one edge, skiers can't apply as much force to the edge. Muscles have two options on or off, on, a muscle can only tighten, it takes months, years of practice to teach the muscles how to react to snowboarding and during that process, at any time the muscle can and will lock up, cramp, at which point the ligaments and tendons on both sides are stretched, when your knee hurts, there's a muscle connected that's pulling on the ligaments and tendons running through your knee, feed the muscle, roll the muscle with a Triggerpoint roller, (https://www.amazon.com/TriggerPoint-Roller-Online-Instructional-26-inch/dp/B006GUC9KC/ref=pd_sbs_200_t_1/136-0027825-2784007?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B006GUC9KC&pd_rd_r=76feef1d-18b5-42ae-8667-545d5f673776&pd_rd_w=T1c7t&pd_rd_wg=pL8RR&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=3ASMK14MHTD2QW0W3TZF&psc=1&refRID=3ASMK14MHTD2QW0W3TZF) get the wide one.

Stretching a tight muscle, na, roll it, roll the calves and hams and shins and quads and lower back and hips, and especially the it bands, roll the backbone and the ribs under your arms and anything that you can roll, roll, get the muscles relaxed, rub on some arnica.

If it's a bone, get to a physician, if it's muscles or ligaments or tendons, get a triggerpoint.

Starting a weight lifting routine when you already have damaged muscles or tendons or ligaments might be the wrong direction.

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On 1/27/2020 at 6:00 AM, Beckmann AG said:

Helpful. 

In both photos, your torso is cantilevered ahead of your hips, which means any resultant shock loads incurred will be absorbed to a greater extent with muscle than with skeletal structure.

Some forward angle is expected, and normal. The problem is it doesn't take too much angular change ahead of 'safe' to predispose oneself to injury, given the sometimes unexpected load spikes.

To illustrate this point, mimic the posture from either photo indoors, using the consistent 9.8m/s/s as a consistent load. See how long you can stand there without discomfort, than flex your knees up and down a few times  to generate slight shock loading (without altering the rest of your posture) and see what happens.

OR maybe just standing there will be enough.

In the heelside photo, your knee flexion is disproportionately uneven, and it appears the center of your front knee is offset somewhat toward the heelside edge. This suggests that much of your heelside edge tilt is derived by moving your center into the turn, rather than originating at the feet and/or knees. In this situation, in order to move the center into the turn without fully toppling at turn entry, it's necessary to counterbalance that movement with an opposite movement of the shoulders. That arrangement moves you from skeletal to muscular support, and that will predispose you to back injury in certain circumstances.

 

Worth noting that in both photos you appear 'normal'.

Something else to consider is that for many riders, the greater loads are seen later in the turn, when the joints are already close to full flexion. As such, there aren't too many options to 'leak' excess energy from the system, other than through structural deformation of the surface, or the rider. As you continue with your riding, pay attention to both postural effect, and also consider that the greater amount of joint flexion should take place when loads are lowest, and the lesser amount of  joint flexion should take place when loads are highest. And that the flexion/extension process should be progressive, rather than sudden/static.

 

HInt: It's pyrite.

 

Thank you Beckmann!

Your post gave me what I think is a pretty big revelation: I always lock my right (rear) boot at a higher angle than the front. No particular reason, I just started doing it like that and no one ever told me that's a bad idea. So, that would force the uneven knee flexion, which forces my hips towards the back of the board, and then the torso lean to move my CoG back forward, right? Things I probably should have found out 10 years ago...

This may not have a simple answer, but given that I'm still riding with the stock Deeluxe walk/ride switches, where should I set the forward lean? Should it be same on both boots? 

> This suggests that much of your heelside edge tilt is derived by moving your center into the turn, rather than originating at the feet and/or knees.

Possibly a dumb question, but what should I be thinking about if I want to initiate heelsides from the feet / knees? I think I definitely do this by leaning to the heelside now, should I just be weighting my heels and trying to unweight my toes? 

 

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Dan,

Could be the back boot is contributing, but also possible that the front boot/binding isn't optimized.

So if the inputs from the front foot/lower leg are insufficient, or aren't properly translated through the boot shell (for whatever the reason) the front leg will straighten as 'last chance' maneuver to get some edge bite. Followed/augmented by folding at the waist.

If you have not already done so, review the parts of my setup process dealing with the front binding, and see if you are anywhere near 'centered and neutral', in terms of where your knee falls across the width of the board, and also how you bear weight upon your front foot at that time.

And of course, test your theory on the locked rear cuff.

 

Forward lean:

The short answer is that the forward lean should be set to support, but not impose an effective relationship between the lower leg and foot.

The complicated answer is that 'effective' may vary from one foot to the other, based on other variables, and also how you choose to ride. I've often found it helpful to set the front boot forward lean, then leave the rear cuff unlocked for awhile to determine what is and is not an effective desirable range of motion.

Not a dumb question.

Stand in bare feet at your chosen stance width, upright and comfortable.  Without thinking about it much, see what kind of action is required in the lower extremities in order to 'topple' your upper body in one direction or the other. You will most likely do something similar to what you envision, though there will probably be other things moving slightly as well.

Once you have an answer, do the same thing in your empty boot shells on the bindings, then repeat with the liners in and boots buckled.

Odds are good that each stage will reveal obstacles either in terms of understanding, or geometry/plastic.

Remove as many obstacles as possible in sequence, then try your solution on a gentle slope.

 

What you are trying to do, in simple terms, is generate a 'whole body' lean angle into the turn, by disrupting, at the ground level, the means by which that lean angle is prevented.

Sort of like; if you swing a ball in a circle on a string, you produce tangential movement by releasing your fingers from the string, while the momentum of the ball does the rest.

Your feet/ankles being the means of release.

 

 

 

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I can speak from unfortunate but significant experience here. In  December 2005 I remember the day I crushed my L5 disc, it was a Heel side on a Madd 170 at Mt Snow north face. Thought I had "pulled" a muscle as all the way home I was uncomfortable.   January 30th at about 11pm the disc blew and I was scheduled to leave the following Saturday for Colorado. Ended up in the hospital at 6am due to the non stop pain. Woke up a 12 and left the hospital. Freaking about the $4000 I was about to lose on that trip I used my connects to get me in for an MRI and Ortho visit that Wednesday. He asked me to do a few moves and said you can go on your trip, will get you an injection but just take it easy. At that point the top of my right foot was  burning. The shot totally numbed my foot and my back didnt hurt the entire trip. Once I got on the plane home my foot started to burn again. I got another shot in March but doing PT they noticed I had foot drop and it was not progressing. I sought out a surgeon and he was like Your foot is numb and you have foot drop, why did you wait do long, you need to be operated on ASAP. Literally 1 hour after the procedure I had more strength on my foot and it was clear he had decompressed the nerve, little did I know the damage to the nerve was done and irreversible. Now my right calf is about 20% smaller than my other leg due to muscle atrophy, I have some slight foot drop but Im able to function really well. 

Where does this long winded story go?  I have atrophy in that leg and the hamstring is part of the problem now. I do good for months without my back chirping at me but when it starts my hamstring is tighter than normal. Siting in my job contributes and over all lack of a good fitness regiment this past 6 months I believe is the culprit.  When Im going to the gym consistently  my back feels the best. I spend the first 30 minutes at least on the mat  stretching and using the foam roller. Its troublesome because I know I will never regain the full strength in that leg due to the nerve damage. I can only hope to keep what I have left. At soon to be 57 I wonder how I will be walking in 10 years but Im still going to try to ride as long as I can. 

Keeping your hips mobile and hamstrings loose are the best things you can do. If you feel like you have nerve involvement or compression dont wait 4 months like I did  

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, here's a quick update. 

The neighborhood gym down the street from me suggested a personal trainer, who is a very chill guy and is also the state record holder for squat, bench and deadlift at 163 lbs. I told him about my lower back issues and let him know I wanted to strengthen the area, and I thought squat and deadlift would be good, as well as whatever else he suggested. 

He put me through some unweighted assessment exercises and the upshot was that I pretty much do everything with my lower back. When I do exercises that should draw on glutes, back, and core, I'm relying almost exclusively on the lower back. 

This rang pretty true to me. So the short story is that I probably have sub-optimal snowboard setup leading to sub-optimal riding posture - per feedback received here. That puts me in a posture where I need to compensate, and I'm doing most/all of that with the lower back, instead of those other muscle groups that might be able to share the load. So I definitely need to do a two-prong approach of revisiting my setup as well as spending some time in the gym, and getting those supporting muscles activated / engaged as well as building strength. 

So, with all that on my mind, I went up to Timberline yesterday. That's right, I'm too fragile to go ride at Libby, but I figured Timberline was fine -- it's pretty flat there anyway when the upper mountain is closed. I tried to think about posture and actually had one turn where I felt like my glutes were working, which was the first time I've ever had that sensation. I'm still prone to slip into old habits though and I left with a slightly sore lower back, but no major issues.

Net net, I have lots to work on, between getting my setup dialed, figuring out how to recruit those other muscles, and then overall strengthening, but I think I'm headed the right direction. 

 

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howdy dan

I am not one to give advice, but I rode with dan when he was in whitefish and he had good form, but

it looked like he was trying too hard and not riding the board. when you decamber a board and ride

the given sidecut the turns should flow and it should look and feel effortless. your body should also

follow and it should also be flowing. I know we did not have the best conditions and condition is everything.

it is when you are fighting the board and conditions are not the best is when you get hurt...

 

my back used to hurt, but now that the nerves are dead it no longer hurts... haha...

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Great job, Dan. A lot of the work that you do on that rehab will translate over to the rest of your life as well, so while it might be boring or tedious, it's certainly not going to be wasted. I am eternally grateful that taking up lifting three years ago forced me into mobility work I would never otherwise have done, and the payoff is huge.
 

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On 1/27/2020 at 6:01 PM, Mr.E said:

Dan, are you generally riding with the backpack? 

Hi Mr.E, sorry, I missed your comment initially. I ride with it often, but I've trimmed the weight - now it usually has just a little bit of water (half-liter or less) and possibly an extra layer. Having said that, I think I need to get rid of it entirely when I'm carving, and am moving in that direction. 

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20 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy dan

I am not one to give advice, but I rode with dan when he was in whitefish and he had good form, but

it looked like he was trying too hard and not riding the board. when you decamber a board and ride

the given sidecut the turns should flow and it should look and feel effortless. your body should also

follow and it should also be flowing. I know we did not have the best conditions and condition is everything.

it is when you are fighting the board and conditions are not the best is when you get hurt...

 

my back used to hurt, but now that the nerves are dead it no longer hurts... haha...

Hi Aaron! Thanks very much for that perspective. I so rarely have anyone around who can critique what I'm doing that I really haven't thought much about how I ride for quite awhile. This is really interesting to hear...I thought I was being "dynamic", LOL. I'm wondering if that's the difference between me and people who are really smooth riders -- I'm going to keep this in mind as I ride in the future.

On a related note, noschoolrider offered to give me some pointers if I can catch up with him at Bachelor - hoping to make that happen this spring and maybe I can put together some of the advice and new ideas that I'm getting into something resembling a coherent whole

Also, sorry to hear about your back! You don't ride like you have old injuries, that's for sure. 

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40 minutes ago, Dan said:

I think I need to get rid of it entirely when I'm carving, and am moving in that direction. 

I'm not a huge fan of always riding with a pack, but certainly riding the chair with it on, or with your back arched if you are slingig it around to the side or front might not be helping.

BTW- after and injury that effectively disconnected me from glute activation, working with a trainer over a number of years has really helped. Getting those suckers to fire has been helping not only my riding, but general back health. Good move getting some help to start a program.

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