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Stretches & exercises for boarding-related back pain?

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So...I've been having some lower back issues lately. They first cropped up last season (I had a muscle spasm that left me unable to clip out of my board, and couldn't walk right or sit up in bed for days), and they came back this weekend, though not as bad as last year. It's muscle pain on the sides of the spine, more on the left side than the right side, but I've had issues on both sides. If I have my knees bent and stay low, I'm good, but a few specific things cause problems:  hard heelside falls, especially if I sit down hard (i.e., as opposed to the more common low side slideout). Hitting chop straightlegged and soaking up the bumps in my back is also a problem.

Stretches I'm doing include pigeon pose, cat/cow, child pose and that lower back stretch you did on your junior high soccer team where you put your left elbow to the right of your bent right knee and twist to the right, then reverse. For core strength, I've been doing planking, and this exercise I got from a physical therapist where I get on all fours and then extend my right arm and left leg at the same time, hold that pose, then switch and extend my left arm and right leg at the same time. 

Admittedly, I've been pretty inconsistent with all of that except planking, but given that issues from last season are cropping up again, I'm motivated to do better. Does anyone have any suggestions for similar issues? 

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Hi Dan,

I'll chime in here, as I've had back surgery to repair a herniated disc, was fine for 5 years (during which I rode), and have now re-herniated it.

Bottom line: don't take chances w/ your back, esp. your lower back. I'm not sure what exactly "muscle pain on the sides of the spine means", but you don't want to be living with any kind of pain for the rest of your life.

I'd strongly consider seeing a specialist (not a GP) if you are worried and/or the pain has continued - at least get some kind of idea what the issue may be. 

 

Other thoughts:

You may find the Mckenzie Back Method book interesting. It's short and a cheap read, but there are some good exercises in there and a lot of food for thought. Perhaps your therapist is aware of it....

Core strength is great to work on (and I'm currently focusing on this as well) and my personal (non-medical professional) opinion is that  think it can be very beneficial for learning / maintaining new functional movements, but I don't think it's going to actually change anatomical issues you may (or may not) have.   

I strongly suspect that some of the movements required when carving (at least the way I ride) are responsible for my back issues. This includes rounding my back to fasten my bail bindings. Remember that bending + twisting = torque.

 

 

 

 

Edited by FTA2R
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Thanks F2A2R! I really appreciate getting your perspective, definitely do not want to do permanent damage...I'm at the age where I'm coming to understand how depressingly easy that is to do. I have a few questions for you: 

What kind of specialist would you suggest? Have you had good results from any particular specialty? I did see some good sports-focused physical therapists last year, but of course no one knows what carving is or what motions are involved. I suppose I could show them some video or something???

Interesting that you mentioned the clipping in movement as a possible concern. I use standard bails too...did you just give me permission to upgrade to step ins? :ices_ange

The pain I'm getting...I don't really know how to describe it other than muscle pain / spasms alongside the spine. I have a big knot from last year that's still there despite some trips to massage. 

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I've found that a 'bus driver' with a weighted barbell in a land mine (or corner) hits this exact muscle very similar to snowboarding. Regular deadlifts and squats don't hit it enough. It's my right side of my spine, regular-foot rider. I also add strengthening exercises for the sides of my calves (the muscles that roll the foot along its long axis) to my training program. 

Dr. Austin Baraki of Barbell Medicine is a medical pain expert that openly critiques things like the McKenzie method. Check this video for a reading of one of his short articles. 

 

If that intrigues you, they have many articles and podcasts on the topic, as casual or science-y as you want.  I'm amazed at how fast I've come back from a couple back 'tweaks' using their process, laid out in the video linked within that video. Get past Alan's 'big badass Marine' voice to hear the content. 

I used a foam roller and lacrosse ball when I was having flare-ups of that muscle, though I now realize that foam rolling is a placebo. A placebo that's pretty cheap and worked, so I still carry that lacrosse ball in my riding gear on trips. Haven't used it in years. 

@FTA2R, the comment at 4:00 is exactly addressing your comments. Catastrophizing is only adding to your issue. The spine is made to bend and twist, and over time you can progressively strengthen the supporting muscles. I had a similar mindset to you; defeated to an ever-shrinking range of motion as I aged. My back hurts less often now after a few years of training than it did 10 years ago. 

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When muscles get tight, that’s when it’s time for the hot tub.  Give it a rest.  I do morning stretches, laying flat on carpet, knees to chest.  Knees up let them roll to left then right.  Sitting, legs apart reaching for toes and holding .  Not sure how much it helps?  Feel better.

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If you are riding choppy conditions and feeling the rough a plate helps smooth thing out but if you are injured you need to identify the injury and deal with it. If it is muscle strengthen it, if it's injured get medical advice. My internet doctor treats my issues with muscle relaxant long hot soaks in the tub and cleaning out horse stalls till the pain comes back and repeat.

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I haven't had lower back pain from carving, but I've had it in spades from mountain biking, which is similar in that you use a hip hinge motion for much of what you do on both a board and a mountain bike.  Partially to address the back pain, last year I started doing some mtb specific exercises/training, and it's made a huge difference.  The focus on lower back pain basically involves increasing core strength to allow you to hip hinge correctly and not round your back when you get fatigued.  Great ways to increase core strength are regular planks, reverse planks, side planks, deadlifts and side-to-side kettlebell swings.  Start light/short and make sure you have perfect form before increasing weight/duration to avoid injury.  As a motivator, I was shocked at how much difference it made in my back pain from mtb riding after a little over a month of working on core a few times a week.

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A contributor to your problem @Dan may be the posture carvers get into to clip into their bail bindings.

https://imgur.com/bV6SJMV

Above is a screen capture from First Tracks at SES 2013 but it's typical. Apologies to whoever's backside I'm highlighting.

Our boots don't allow easy ankle flexion or knee bend when we bend forward to engage the bail on the rear binding as we get ready to ride. Almost all the forward bend therefore is made at the hips and bending the lower back. If your hamstring muscles on the back of the thigh are tight then little pelvic tilt can occur to allow movement at the hip,  so now the bulk of the movement comes from compression of the discs adjacent to the 5 lumbar vertebrae (spine bones). This also puts enormous tension on the low back muscles on either side of the spine and your core generally.

How to tell if your hamstrings are tight? And how to safely stretch them if they are?

https://imgur.com/laSeCob

Above is me stretching my left hamstring. How close you can get your butt to the doorway and keep your knee straight tells you how tight, or not, your hamstrings are. When I first started doing these my leg would be at 45 degrees to the door frame and my knee would start to bend.
Lying in this position with your butt slightly closer to the door than you can keep your knee straight isolates the stretch to just that hamstring. The weight of your leg keeps your back firmly on the floor. The other leg on the floor minimises any tilt of the pelvis. And with regular stretches you will get your butt closer to the door. Use the other side of the doorway to stretch the other leg.

I moved to Intec heels long ago because of my tight hamstrings and the back pain issues they cause getting into my bail bindings. The stretches help me with lower back pain/muscle spasm issues I have had in day to day life as well.
You don't have to abandon your bail bindings entirely. Just buy a set of Intec bindings, stick the bails on the front and the Intecs on the rear. Your back will love you for it!

Edited by SunSurfer
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I’ve had occasional lower back pain similar to what you describe, brought on by hard heel-side slides/stops that occurred due to proximity of trees or lift pole. I have self-diagnosed as herniated disc.  What has worked for me is: 1) rest; 2) planks - front, side, back; 3) once things are feeling better, Roman chair plus continuation of front and side planks. My theory is that by building the muscles on all sides of the discs, once the inflammation has subsided, the muscles will be better able to provide counter-pressure against the compression forces that squeeze discs outward during these really hard stops.  

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1 hour ago, MacSkiddin said:

I’ve had occasional lower back pain similar to what you describe, brought on by hard heel-side slides/stops that occurred due to proximity of trees or lift pole. I have self-diagnosed as herniated disc.  What has worked for me is: 1) rest; 2) planks - front, side, back; 3) once things are feeling better, Roman chair plus continuation of front and side planks. My theory is that by building the muscles on all sides of the discs, once the inflammation has subsided, the muscles will be better able to provide counter-pressure against the compression forces that squeeze discs outward during these really hard stops.  

The signature of a significant lumbar herniated disc is nerve root compression pain. That is pain that is felt in the distribution of the affected nerve i.e not localised back pain. The nerve is irritated by both direct compression and/or inflammation caused by extruded disc substance.

 

Edited by SunSurfer
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Dan,

No idea how you ride.

However, the average rider is usually bent at the waist during phases of each turn. The upper body mass will 'want' to move tangent to the arc, and something must constrain that tendency. Depending on your posture, and where the loads of the turn misalign with that posture, odds are good you're overloading your system in general, and the noted shocks push you toward the breaking point.

While the spine has a considerable range of motion, it's fair to assume it will handle variable loads best when aligned vertically with those loads, rather than at some angle toward the horizontal.

One option is to get stronger, which by default increases muscle density. 

Another option is to optimize your posture.

 

 

Edited by Beckmann AG
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@Corey I'll check that video out.  I didn't think I was "catastrophizing" given that I've already been under the knife once for my back (in my mid-30s) and have to acknowledge I can't move like I used to be able to (unfortunately). If there are additional things I can do, then I'll do my best to do those.

 

@Dan   To answer your question: If your pain doesn't seem to be subsiding or its affecting your daily life, it seems reasonable to me to have some diagnostics done (x-ray, possibly MRI). In my experience, a GP just doesn't have the tools or knowledge to provide real answers here (and that's not a knock on them). I would do some research and consider seeing a back surgeon (preferably specializing in lumbar) or perhaps a neurologist. The goal here is to find someone who will listen to you an act accordingly. Perhaps PT (by someone uniquely qualified, preferably not your standard "shake and bake" model, as I think they call it) and/or a small anti-inflammatory regimen will really help. Obviously, you want to find someone who starts conservative.

In my case, I went back to the lumbar spine specialist who fixed me in '13. Aside from logistical challenges seeing him (distance, availability), I wasn't happy with how he was treating it. Just thought I needed to get a fresh perspective....and I'm glad I did. I found a great dr (he's a surgeon) who was part of a larger and well-known spine specialty group. He listened to me / my concerns and started out with an X-ray, then prescribed an MRI, which confirmed the re-herniation. I then started PT with a practice that it was in the same building and also focused on spine. They were definitely more expensive than your standard PT (and required out of pocket) , but they gave me a lot of good exercises and had a lot of different options for modalities - and their overall knowledge and experience was on the higher end. I took anti-inflammatories for a month or so (not real fun, had to change once b/c they were killing my stomach).  Pain subsided and I've been pretty good since. In a real coincidence, my PT actually was familiar with carving.

I'd also recommend approaching chiropractors w/ caution. I made that mistake the first time around.

bottom line: spend the time researching the best doctors and /or therapists around you. And consider you may have to ease up a bit (or completely) - at least for a little while - on some exercises.

Also, I'm not a medical professional. Do not self diagnose according to the internet. Everyone thinks they're a f'n dr. I think you owe it to yourself to at least schedule an initial eval with a qualified specialist.

 

 

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Dan, you mention doing core work, but are you doing back and hip work?

I find that tightness in my hips/ hip flexors can add stress to my spinal erectors. You mention chop/ sitting hard, etc- I'm only speaking anecdotally, but that echoes hip discomfort I've had that has expressed itself in my back.

Lots of people think of core strength as abdominal strength, but it's also back strength. Doing back related exercises (like deadlifts and trunk work) have gone a long way to improving my daily back pain (sports injury, work posture, etc). There is a reason you see WC riders lifting heavy stuff in their gym videos.

*As an aside, I have been lucky to work with some good trainers on learning how to pick stuff up. If you are naturally gym adverse like I am, try to find a good class, trainer or coach to help you learn how to lift stuff up safely and get the proper techniques down.

Edited by Mr.E
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Doctors Baraki and Feigenbaum addressing low back pain causes, risk reduction, and management with the soldiers and medical staff of Ft. Irwin: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jordan-feigenbaum/barbell-medicine-podcast/e/66096102

If you want to go full nerd on the current state of back pain research, try this 66-minute long literature review podcast: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jordan-feigenbaum/barbell-medicine-podcast/e/65771209

Dr. Baraki addressing Ft. Irwin medical staff (more technical): https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jordan-feigenbaum/barbell-medicine-podcast/e/66216996

The takeaways I got from all of this:

1. Back surgery is unlikely to provide a better outcome than waiting an equivalent amount of time

2. A significant percentage of people without any back pain show herniated discs - so imaging can cause undue stress via nocebo and non-proven medical procedures 

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Hope you feel better soon. Back pain sucks.

If you were here, I'd send you to my movement specialist guys - who have been amazing at fixing my weightlifting pains. One of the things I've learned from them is that pain is rarely where you think it is, and it's usually caused by imbalances somewhere else. I've dealt with knee pain that was all in my hips, and golfers elbow that was in my back. Both were long term issues that were solved literally within days, once they got traced to the right place and appropriate rehab exercises prescribed.

If you could find someone in Portland who does something similar, they might be worth a visit. I just PM'ed one of my guys, because I seem to remember he spent some time in Portland and might know people. if he comes up with anything I'll pass it on.

Edited by Allee
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On 1/22/2020 at 5:30 AM, Beckmann AG said:

One option is to get stronger, which by default increases muscle density. 

Another option is to optimize your posture.

Hi Dan,

Beckmann is on target and he seems to be the only person suggesting that you consider the source of the problem.  Without seeing you ride, I'm going to guess that it might be twisted/over-rotated relationships in your posture that are causing the pain.  I see this problem in snowboarding a lot and it results in muscle fatigue/stiffness/pain because of increased tension and reduced absorption (as a coach, I constantly analyze cause and effect relationships).

It's great to work on strength, endurance and flexibility/stretching.  However, I strongly recommend that you determine (and try to fix) the source of the problem. 

It might be helpful if you post a video of your riding, or if you are coming to Mt Bachelor this season you can send me a private message - maybe we can make some turns so I can tell you what I see and give some suggestions.

Don

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On 1/21/2020 at 2:50 PM, Dan said:

For core strength, I've been doing planking, and this exercise I got from a physical therapist where I get on all fours and then extend my right arm and left leg at the same time, hold that pose, then switch and extend my left arm and right leg at the same time. 

 

Another good variation to that is laying on your stomach left arm up right leg up, then right arm up left leg up. Then both legs and arms up.  So only your waist touches the ground.  

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On 1/21/2020 at 3:14 PM, Corey said:

I've found that a 'bus driver' with a weighted barbell in a land mine (or corner) hits this exact muscle very similar to snowboarding. Regular deadlifts and squats don't hit it enough. It's my right side of my spine, regular-foot rider. I also add strengthening exercises for the sides of my calves (the muscles that roll the foot along its long axis) to my training program. 

Dr. Austin Baraki of Barbell Medicine is a medical pain expert that openly critiques things like the McKenzie method. Check this video for a reading of one of his short articles. 

 

If that intrigues you, they have many articles and podcasts on the topic, as casual or science-y as you want.  I'm amazed at how fast I've come back from a couple back 'tweaks' using their process, laid out in the video linked within that video. Get past Alan's 'big badass Marine' voice to hear the content. 

I used a foam roller and lacrosse ball when I was having flare-ups of that muscle, though I now realize that foam rolling is a placebo. A placebo that's pretty cheap and worked, so I still carry that lacrosse ball in my riding gear on trips. Haven't used it in years. 

@FTA2R, the comment at 4:00 is exactly addressing your comments. Catastrophizing is only adding to your issue. The spine is made to bend and twist, and over time you can progressively strengthen the supporting muscles. I had a similar mindset to you; defeated to an ever-shrinking range of motion as I aged. My back hurts less often now after a few years of training than it did 10 years ago. 

Thanks Corey! I watched the video and the video linked in the video (took me awhile to figure out I had to turn off my ad blocker to see it :-)). 

Though I'm a little leery of "just work through the pain", I can vouch that doing nothing hasn't helped: the original injury was at Libby last year, as I'm sure you remember given that you were driving my gimpy ass around. Thanks for the tip on the 'bus driver' exercise too, it has been a long time since I did anything other than bodyweight stuff, but I think it's time to get back in to a gym. 

 

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On 1/21/2020 at 8:01 PM, SunSurfer said:

A contributor to your problem @Dan may be the posture carvers get into to clip into their bail bindings.

https://imgur.com/bV6SJMV

Above is a screen capture from First Tracks at SES 2013 but it's typical. Apologies to whoever's backside I'm highlighting.

Our boots don't allow easy ankle flexion or knee bend when we bend forward to engage the bail on the rear binding as we get ready to ride. Almost all the forward bend therefore is made at the hips and bending the lower back. If your hamstring muscles on the back of the thigh are tight then little pelvic tilt can occur to allow movement at the hip,  so now the bulk of the movement comes from compression of the discs adjacent to the 5 lumbar vertebrae (spine bones). This also puts enormous tension on the low back muscles on either side of the spine and your core generally.

How to tell if your hamstrings are tight? And how to safely stretch them if they are?

https://imgur.com/laSeCob

Above is me stretching my left hamstring. How close you can get your butt to the doorway and keep your knee straight tells you how tight, or not, your hamstrings are. When I first started doing these my leg would be at 45 degrees to the door frame and my knee would start to bend.
Lying in this position with your butt slightly closer to the door than you can keep your knee straight isolates the stretch to just that hamstring. The weight of your leg keeps your back firmly on the floor. The other leg on the floor minimises any tilt of the pelvis. And with regular stretches you will get your butt closer to the door. Use the other side of the doorway to stretch the other leg.

I moved to Intec heels long ago because of my tight hamstrings and the back pain issues they cause getting into my bail bindings. The stretches help me with lower back pain/muscle spasm issues I have had in day to day life as well.
You don't have to abandon your bail bindings entirely. Just buy a set of Intec bindings, stick the bails on the front and the Intecs on the rear. Your back will love you for it!

Thanks SunSurfer! That stretch is great and I'm adding it to my routine - I have very tight hamstrings and a lot of hamstring stretches don't work for me because I'm just too inflexible. (I'm a road cyclist and I've heard tight hamstrings are pretty common for us.) 

 I'm not sure if clipping in was the cause, but I can confirm that clipping / unclipping does hit the exact muscles that I tweaked. I'm guilty of rounding my back when riding as well - that's the easiest way for me to get low, but I'm getting the idea that's not sustainable. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 5:30 AM, Beckmann AG said:

Dan,

No idea how you ride.

However, the average rider is usually bent at the waist during phases of each turn. The upper body mass will 'want' to move tangent to the arc, and something must constrain that tendency. Depending on your posture, and where the loads of the turn misalign with that posture, odds are good you're overloading your system in general, and the noted shocks push you toward the breaking point.

While the spine has a considerable range of motion, it's fair to assume it will handle variable loads best when aligned vertically with those loads, rather than at some angle toward the horizontal.

One option is to get stronger, which by default increases muscle density. 

Another option is to optimize your posture.

 

 

Thanks Beckmann, if you want to know how I ride, think about Chris Klug, only more fluid. :ices_ange 

Seriously, I unfortunately don't have any recent pics or video, but as noted above, I am quite inflexible and accomplish "getting low" at least partially by rounding my lower back. It seems I've hit my body's limits for that approach though. Possibly related: I typically ride with a pack, though I've trimmed the contents down to about a liter of water, a layer (depending on time of day, I might be wearing it, or it could be in the pack), and usually a hat. 

Not sure if you can opine on this sight unseen, but I'm using the stock walk/ride switch in my Deeluxe boots. I think that switching to a BTS could help because I could flex my knees more and reduce the need to bend my back to get my CoG down. Does that make sense?  

 

 

 

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On 1/22/2020 at 8:22 AM, Mr.E said:

Dan, you mention doing core work, but are you doing back and hip work?

I find that tightness in my hips/ hip flexors can add stress to my spinal erectors. You mention chop/ sitting hard, etc- I'm only speaking anecdotally, but that echoes hip discomfort I've had that has expressed itself in my back.

Lots of people think of core strength as abdominal strength, but it's also back strength. Doing back related exercises (like deadlifts and trunk work) have gone a long way to improving my daily back pain (sports injury, work posture, etc). There is a reason you see WC riders lifting heavy stuff in their gym videos.

*As an aside, I have been lucky to work with some good trainers on learning how to pick stuff up. If you are naturally gym adverse like I am, try to find a good class, trainer or coach to help you learn how to lift stuff up safely and get the proper techniques down.

Thanks Mr.E! As I mentioned above, I've done only body weight stuff for quite awhile. That includes planks, which target the whole core, but I do think I probably need to add weights and start doing more whole-body exercises like deadlifts. I'm fortunate to have a really attitude-free neighborhood gym near me and I know once I get myself to show up and say "um, can you show me how to do this?" I'll get good coaching from the staff, just need to get over that initial hesitancy. 

 

 

On 1/24/2020 at 7:28 AM, Corey said:

 

The takeaways I got from all of this:

1. Back surgery is unlikely to provide a better outcome than waiting an equivalent amount of time

2. A significant percentage of people without any back pain show herniated discs - so imaging can cause undue stress via nocebo and non-proven medical procedures 

Not too surprising - they're saying the same thing about ACL repairs now too. My symptoms would have to be much worse before I would consider surgery. 

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1 hour ago, Dan said:

the original injury was at Libby last year, as I'm sure you remember given that you were driving my gimpy ass around.

Oh, wow, this is still from then? Yeah, time to get things moving properly again! I struggled with varying degrees of back pain (stiff/sore to can't walk) for almost 20 years before a friend convinced me to try lifting heavy stuff to build muscle mass. I didn't know I'd also learn to move through a wider range of motion as well. 

 

41 minutes ago, Dan said:

I'm fortunate to have a really attitude-free neighborhood gym near me and I know once I get myself to show up and say "um, can you show me how to do this?" I'll get good coaching from the staff, just need to get over that initial hesitancy. 

That's really awesome! Having a good coach, or even a few tips, will greatly speed things along. Keep the volume low at first and ramp it up over weeks, not days. 

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3 hours ago, Dan said:

Not sure if you can opine on this sight unseen, but I'm using the stock walk/ride switch in my Deeluxe boots. I think that switching to a BTS could help because I could flex my knees more and reduce the need to bend my back to get my CoG down. Does that make sense?  

 

Might, might not.

If you have normal range of motion out of the ankle joints, then using BTS v riding with cuffs locked might help. On the other hand, if you ride with the boots softened to allow for greater range, that can present other problems. Specifically, change in cuff contact pressure is a means for the brain to sense what's happening, and to act accordingly. If the boots are too soft, it's possible to get too far 'over the line' toward some form of high stress loading before you realize, (on the subconscious level) what's happening, and by the time you do, it's too late for evasive maneuvering.

E.g., while pursuing a particular line of inquiry last winter, I was riding one session on good snow with my boot flex controls in an excessively slack arrangement. At some point I did something that made walking awkward and painful for the next few weeks, and required additional lumbar support in the car. 

As a general rule, the posture one adopts in the athletic context serves a purpose. Sometimes it's discretionary/intentional, and sometimes it's necessary/reflexive. The thing for you to consider/evaluate is whether or not your boots are restricting you from finding a 'better' posture, or are actively preventing you from adopting one worse.

Have you tried riding with the front cuff locked, and the rear cuff in walk?

(As a point of interest, are you trying to adopt a lower COG out of practical need, or as a perceived means of skill development? )

To avoid injury, one should account for how system one (the physical structure) is best loaded, and then understand under what circumstances in system two (the hardbooting context) that structure can be damaged.

->Worth noting that washing lots of dishes in bare feet can lead to back problems.

Further, worth bearing in mind that just because something is commonplace, the statistical 'normality' doesn't make it 'right'. That most riders ride with a particular posture has more to do with how niche activities propagate, and less to do with what is and is not appropriate from the structural standpoint.

->Galmarini and Ligety have both suffered back injury, and damage to their careers, by pursuing what seemed logical in context, but was rather short-sighted from the bio-mechanical standpoint.

 

3 hours ago, Dan said:

I have very tight hamstrings and a lot of hamstring stretches don't work for me because I'm just too inflexible. (I'm a road cyclist and I've heard tight hamstrings are pretty common for us.) 

Stretching is a symptomatic treatment. There are reasons why muscles get tight, and once you figure out why a particular group is affected, you can take steps to actually resolve the issue.

As a side note, cleat location and seat location can both contribute to chronically tight hamstrings while or after cycling.

Along with lending too much credence to particular bike fit gurus on youtube.

When you say you're 'inflexible', is that based primarily on hamstring/leg, lower back issues, or does that pertain to the rest of your body as well?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't have any video of me riding, but I was able to dig up a couple of photos. 

This heelside photo is most applicable because heelside is where I'm tweaking my back. This is steeper than it looks and I felt like I was all over the place, so it's probably a good example of what I do when things are not going great. 

58a15725719d9_image.jpg.4778e8367f2f8ee2

 

Mellow toeside - I don't think this angle is very helpful for our current discussion though. 

dy49nno.jpg

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