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1xsculler

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Hi @1xsculler, I think I have seen you at Crystal mountain few times, that’s why decided to write my first post here…

I can share my experience. I have started riding alpine setup not a very long time ago. My experience may help you. This is not by any means something what is “right”, but something what helped me.

 

I had similar problems as you: burning my quads, not enough space on the slope, too crowdy slopes, bad conditions of the slope. As a result I used to do lots of sliding instead of carving.

 

1. Playing with my stance solved half of the burning legs problem. Found that even couple degrees of lift or canting can make a huge different.

2. I stoped following just one “school” of carving. And found that using different techniques makes my riding more fun, adaptable to situation, safe, and not too exhausting - much easier on my legs. I ride 75% racing style, 10% bomber/cmc, 15% “mild” EC/rotational push and pull :-).

3. I have tried to ride "low and compact“ all the time. And "low/compact“ means that my chest was resting on my knees sometimes during heel side turn. My quads were not happy. And it was dangerous at Crystal, where runs are narrow, with lots of people. Too high chance that somebody will hit you (had few close calls). Always using directional stance and sitting “compact”, controlling your speed by closed turns (means going slow downhill) is very limiting and not always needed. And requires lots of space.

4. I rode often and I increased my confidence. I started to ride faster and started to use more of racing technique (see Midweighting on YouTube). Now I rarely go super “low/compact”. Look at racers, they never go super compact, even during free carving - like Sigi. Same goes to some amazing carvers from Korea and Japan. However I can make my turns much smaller than before, as I can use my legs to really pressure the board. I can speed up or slowdown by pressuring the board differently during the turn (another tool in addition to angulation). Surprisingly I found that I can control my speed more efficiently than just using extended “closed” carves, and I use much less space. I am riding faster than before so it is not as dangerous (less chances to be hit by others). I do not have to wait for big gaps between other riders to drop in. Plus now I carve much better when runs at Crystal are really copped up. I just have more stability and agility now - I can change my directions much faster in case of “emergency” comparing to “forward facing” bomber style.  

5. Surpassingly I found that faster and higher G turns, without scraping the slope (mostly - as you still will touch slope with your hips and knees if you want and/or need), are super fun too!

6. At steeper, narrow and crowded places (like steep section of Downhill run at Crystal) I (try to) use drifting racing technique. It is not sliding and is very fun. Requires little space and every turn still ends with a carve :-).

7. When I ride, I often repeat in my head: “heaps, knees, heaps, knees, …” (check Galmarini Gillette video on YouTube). Rest of the body just follows. This simple thing somehow improved my angulation a lot. Made my turns much more compact.

 

P.S. Again, this is not necessary “right” or will work for everyone. It just worked for me :-).

 


 

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13 hours ago, dgCarve said:

Hi @1xsculler, I think I have seen you at Crystal mountain few times, that’s why decided to write my first post here…

Welcome dgCarve!  Nice write up; i am nodding along as I read.  How long have you been riding alpine setup?
Amazing progression if you only started out.

"I stoped following just one “school” of carving. And found that using different techniques makes my riding more fun"  <-- so much this.  Make it your own style.  it's the same words of encouragement/wisdom from Fin. 

17 hours ago, Bobby Buggs said:

Beginner my ASS, last March you were the star of the group, even my wife said you were the best rider. 

Love you Wrong Island.... Lol

Thanks Bobby!  Miss you buddy!  Always a blast riding with you and the Beast crew.
You caught me on a good day; broken clock is right twice a day.
as self proclaim "king of the green" . I can keep up with most on Green trail 😉 as i spent ridiculous amount of time on them girly slope hahah...
Maybe in 10 more years i can be "duke of the blue".

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2 hours ago, pow4ever said:

Welcome dgCarve!  Nice write up; i am nodding along as I read.  How long have you been riding alpine setup?


Thank You!

This is my only second season on alpine setup. But I ride a lot - 4-6 times per week :-).

In rear occasions I ride regular boards, but I still use hardboots. Ride everything on such setup from double black diamonds, to moguls and some jumps in the park (I am not park rat by any means :-)). And of cause I do not miss any chance to carve 🙂. So much more control I have with hardboots, even comparing to my very stiff softboot setup (Ride Insano / Driver X + Bent Metal Solution / Ride NX2 - GT).  Have not used my softboot setup for a while...

Edited by dgCarve
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23 minutes ago, dgCarve said:

In rear accessions I ride regular boards, but I still use hardboots. Ride everything on such setup from double black diamonds, to moguls and some jumps in the park (I am not park rat by any means :-)). And of cause I do not miss any chance to carve 🙂.

^ Oh look! A brother from another mother! 👍

Welcome! 

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@1xsculler: a few points to consider.

 

1.  It's too late.  We're halfway through the season already, it's too late to start a strength training program.  Especially if you plan to start doing eccentric and plyometric exercises that you've never tried before.  If you were riding weekends only I might suggest a light workout on Wednesdays, but I think you ride more than that and high quality rest will probably do you more good than intense cross conditioning at this point.  Just ride and rest; give your body a chance to recover and get stronger.  In January, riding is the best training for riding.  Light cardio and stretching are advised on rest days to speed recovery, but plan to start your strength training for next season in April.

 

2.  Likely you have muscle imbalances in your legs.  Muscle strength and particularly endurance are very position specific.  If most of your quad strength comes from rowing, then you may have a lot of strength and endurance when pushing from a seated position but that's not going to transfer well to standing on a snowboard.  Further, because rowing demands a very narrow range of motion parts of your thighs are likely overdeveloped while other parts are comparatively underdeveloped.  This may be why you tire out so quickly; it's the weaker muscles that can't keep up.  An over reliance on your larger muscles may also be influencing your technique.  This kind of imbalance can also lead to injury when the smaller muscles are fatigued and get overpowered by the larger ones.  I also suspect your knee stabilizers are weak, because you're (over) training sitting down.  You'll need to train your legs this summer in a wider variety of positions (mostly standing), get off the cable machines and use free weights for your squats and lunges.  Train your calves and adductors a bit too.

 

3.  Core strength is at least as important as leg strength.  If your core is weak, no amount of leg strength will support the body tension needed for carving.  This is a very physically demanding sport. Getting low will help you cheat that a bit and carve with less core tension, but stretching it out feels so good!  Mix in some isometrics when training your core and don't neglect the obliques.  Your lower back is probably already strong from rowing, but maybe your abs are weaker (by comparison) and so also imbalanced and so also contributing to your fatigue and then to your poor technique as you try to rely on your stronger muscles to carve.  Pullups, dips, leg raises,medicine ball situps...  Look up preparation exercises for isometric gymnastic positions like levers and flags.

 

Good luck.  Don't quit.

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3x10 of dumbbell dead lifts turn my quads to jelly (makes it difficult to control coming down stairs) and I can feel it in my glutes a little too.  It makes me feel like I have exhausted my quads making a half dozen pretty hard runs on my board and, over the last three years my quads have become more of a problem.  It may have something to do with birthdays, I fear.

Strengthening my quads using a weight bearing exercise should be very good in many ways.

I think this will be my quads tuning/strength building exercise as if I can't get my quads to behave I'll be finished.

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On 1/18/2020 at 4:40 PM, 1xsculler said:

It’s painful to have to admit it but after three years of working my butt off trying to eliminate skidding back and forth down the hill I must go back to finding the edge by, again, mastering “The Norm.”

It starts with the “Norm” and hopefully ends with the “Norm”.  It’s not a board, a boot, a binding nor a technique...it is a feeling.  A feeling of being stacked over the edge of the board.  Your ability to maintain the feeling as you make a turn is the limiting factor to your progression.  If your quads can’t hold on then you lost the ability.  

I disagree with not working out now.  There is enough time in this season to realize a benefit by at least loosing up joints, and starting to build dormant muscles. Find a trainer at a local gym, tell them what your goal is and start working out.

 

B9D46BD0-6E51-4B44-ADDE-8E9A06BAB911.jpeg

708D118E-C0DC-45F9-9FE2-D1997B74841C.jpeg

Edited by Chouinard
Can’t spell for sh$t...must be an inganeer
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36 minutes ago, Chouinard said:

It starts with the “Norm” and hopefully ends with the “Norm”.  It’s not a board, a boot, a binding nor a technique...it is a feeling.  A feeling of being stacked over the edge of the board.  Your ability to maintain the feeling as you make a turn is the limiting factor to your progression.  If your quads can’t hold on then you lost the ability.  

 

B9D46BD0-6E51-4B44-ADDE-8E9A06BAB911.jpeg

708D118E-C0DC-45F9-9FE2-D1997B74841C.jpeg

FYI, The "Norm", as pertains to the familiar means of learning to describe carved turns on hardboots has no overt connection to "the normal force".

At least not as depicted.

Rather, it has everything to do with learning how to operate an alpine board using the least complicated posture, and also a as a means of removing a rider from a posture that has already become too convoluted, (and therefore ineffectual) in part due to misunderstanding multiple sources of information on the topic.

Easy to see, however, how things could get lost in translation.

Edited by Beckmann AG
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Me Beckmann, What point are you trying to make with that rowing vid which I cannot open to view?

It’s my opinion that the fittest rower on the planet might have quad issues when carving because 99% of a rower’s leg strength is pushing the feet away from the body during the drive and the quads are relaxing during the recovery. As pointed out by someone else on this topic a carver needs eccentric quad strength, i.e. strength when you go down from a dead lift for example. That is what I am going to concentrate on developing. 

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7 hours ago, 1xsculler said:

Me Beckmann, What point are you trying to make with that rowing vid which I cannot open to view?

It’s my opinion that the fittest rower on the planet might have quad issues when carving because 99% of a rower’s leg strength is pushing the feet away from the body during the drive and the quads are relaxing during the recovery. As pointed out by someone else on this topic a carver needs eccentric quad strength, i.e. strength when you go down from a dead lift for example. That is what I am going to concentrate on developing. 

The fittest rower on the planet will experience quad burn if they 'do it wrong'. Their fitness will simply delay considerably the point at which quad burn will interfere with their ability to participate.

The point I'll fail to make, is that even if your frequent workouts are, (as stated), only forty feet in length, as a dedicated oarsman you have fitness sufficient to ride well.

 

 

 

 

 

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Exactly.  I am in general decent shape overall but "carving the wrong way" will fatigue even the most elite athlete.
analogous is no one can hang on to the ledge indefinitely(static motion):  the difference between best rock climber and mere mortal are mere minutes.  World record is just shy of 3 minutes.

Good technique and being dynamic is key but it's easier said than done.
"When you do things right; people won't be sure if you done anything at all"  -- Futurama

onlooker:  "Hey that look pretty smooth/effortless" 
me:  out of breath, barely hanging on "thanks; It's actually tons of efforts..."

How to reconcile between the 2 states are my "forever goal".

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+1 I had bad quad burn till 1) I really played with my stance and found what works for me.  2) stoped going unnecessary super low and compact all the time. 3) When possible use more dynamic carving, actively pressuring the board, without statically "sitting"  in the same position during long carve turn.

I am very fit, but my quads where done in two hours before, now I can carve all day.

 


 

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@pow4ever

Economy of effort in carving comes from 2 essential things.
Letting, not forcing, the board do what it is designed to do, carve.
Keeping the body balanced over the board, not straining the body by adopting unbalanced or needlessly "dynamic" positions. The ideal dose of "dynamism" is just enough to cope with the snow condition and contour beneath the board. Any more is just posing!

Echo - "When you do things right; people won't be sure if you done anything at all"  -- Futurama

Edited by SunSurfer
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@1xsculler is from Crystal mountain. Runs are quite narrow and often very crowdy. Even if you use small SCR you have only two options: 1) go low and very compact (means burn quads) 2) Be dynamic and pressure the board in every turn (much less quad burn as load is not static).

The third option just relax and and let board do the turn (even riding 10m SRC) could be used only in very limited cases. It is too slow, too wide, too little control (no fast edge change in case it is needed). It is just not an option at Crystal most of the time, especially after introduction of Icon Pass - it is just too crowded and narrow.

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2 hours ago, dgCarve said:

+1 I had bad quad burn till 1) I really played with my stance and found what works for me.  2) stoped going unnecessary super low and compact all the time. 3) When possible use more dynamic carving, actively pressuring the board, without statically "sitting"  in the same position during long carve turn.

I am very fit, but my quads where done in two hours before, now I can carve all day.

"Riding tall" united lol....

It took me 6+ years but I think I finally understand what @Beckmann AG told me on my first Alpine lesson.
I am just a very slow learner.  Still have pretty much the ball part/setup i had from Sugarloaf.  Really need to spent the time and dial in stance/boots and what not.

Alan:  Agreed 1000% I know where i am and where I want to be but step 2 is unclear lol...
Snow condition are also variable and those whom can adjust on the fly are truly talented.
In car speak: I am just a dumb power glide transmission while everyone is on CVT/DSG/10 speed hahaha

EXmmL.jpg

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41 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

@pow4everDavid, what did Beckmann tell you?

At the time I remembered I just wanted to get out and ride lol.

This have been a while so I might have some false memory:

Erik spent lots of time on making sure my setup are proper: stance, angle, canting(Catek OS2 so it's easier). 
How does the setup feel as whole?  stability, hot spot,  we are not moving just standing but clip in; why does it take me so much effort to stabilized myself just standing around.  Skating with one foot with minimal upper body motion.  <-- Mind you all of these i still have not figured out/making much if any progress.
 
Initiated turn from the bottom(small) to upper(big musle):  toe/feet/ball of the heel -> leg/shin/knee/quad -> hip/core/arm/shoulder/head

The key take away:
@Beckmann AG isn't trying to teach me how to ride alpine snowboard in the traditional coach sense but trying to teach me the awareness of my movements.  Which allow refinement by myself:  Knowing what feel right/wrong and how to incrementally inch toward the right.
Unfortunately i wasn't ready at the time to receive those instruction. 

I now realized I really need to dial in my boots/setup.  Having been building house on shaky foundation; it's amazing i can linked a turn or 2 lol...

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http://alpinesnowboarder.com/the-norm-part-i/

Sounds not too far from the sense of Jack's article (linked above) which is kind of where this whole thread started. Reviewing it, I was bemused to find myself pictured back in 2012 on my first visit to Aspen & SES (the rider in red trousers with the Contour camera). Not that I could norm carve then....think I might be closer to it now.

https://youtu.be/1gqhoWDUeB0

 

Edited by SunSurfer
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On 1/21/2020 at 3:22 PM, 1xsculler said:

BUT my quads letting me down is my major problem

Hey Scully,  I feel your burn buddy!

  Adding a Plate will extend your riding day and decrease leg burn.......And Probably Increase Your Performance!       My K168 is stock  and was already a really solid 10 performer yet forgiving....but adding a Bomber V2 Lite literally took me to the next level and it made it even more forgiving on the ol legs at no loss of performance  and pushed the performance closer to a 12!....  that I can ride all day!! 

 

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Truth to Powe'er:

On 1/27/2020 at 9:10 PM, pow4ever said:

Unfortunately i wasn't ready at the time to receive those instruction. 

The fact that you have such good recall suggests otherwise. And I’m pleased that you found enduring value in something I said years ago.

->Although you left out our discussion on Detroit Diesel superchargers?

Awareness is an origin, but as you realize, there’s often a vast space between an awareness, and a successful utilization of that awareness toward an eventual solution.

And that space is usually littered with obstructions.

Sometimes it’s motivation, sometimes mechanical, sometimes a conflict of identity, etc. More often than not there is a ‘simple’ reason why we can’t do what we want how we want.

Recognizing and dealing with that reason can be difficult, and is rarely ‘sexy’.

That you recognize your capacity for improvement, the elements holding you back, and also a tentative path toward that goal, is a good omen for your future self.

Ignorance, with or without intent, is rarely the way to progress.

On 1/27/2020 at 10:54 PM, SunSurfer said:

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/snowboarding-a-practical-manual/11crossover

Sounds not too far from the sense of Jack's article (linked above) which is kind of where this whole thread started.

 

 

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