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JRAZZ

Setup question: Bias towards the toes...

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So I'm still out. Getting kinda stir crazy.  Being bored means lot's of carpet carving and overly thinking my setup (my specialty).

Before being so thoroughly taken out by Denver Health I rode my Donek Saber and noticed something odd. I really couldn't initiate a toe side anything. It was really scary how much effort I needed to put into the board to get on edge. I finally figured out that the size L binding may have put my boots too far back towards the heel edge. I moved them one hole in the toe side direction and the board transformed! Made it much much easier to ride. 

That got me thinking about my hardboot setup. Over the past year I settled on heel lift for both the back and front binding. Weird, I know, but it was the only way I could get the board to ride straight when I relaxed. It also allowed me to ride one-footed much more easily. 

So my question is, would moving the bindings towards the toe side have the same effect? Would I be able to revert to a more normal heel lift on the back and flat on the front? Is this something else? Should I just accept my weirdness?

 

Here's the setup I'm thinking of trying... (p.s. don't care about toe drag right now. Just trying to find something that works)

one_binding.jpg.954f5ad69535060fe94df7356205a628.jpg

both_bindings.jpg.97bd75230fa6700e2f712eb7d1a46c79.jpg

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Correct me if I've misinterpreted the photos.
0 degree lift disc front, offset 1cm towards toe edge.
3 degree disc rear, lift axis set at effective 20 degrees, also offset 1cm towards toe edge.

So what angles are your binding plates relative to the discs?
Are you taking full advantage of the ability to move the toe and heel blocks on the binding plates?
What model boots are you using?
How would you describe the technique you use  to put the board on toe edge, and then onto the heel edge?
Do you have any significant skeletal/physical issue with your legs that limits movement, or makes your legs significantly different from normal alignment?

More information will help others to unpick your problem.

Edited by SunSurfer
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I don't like how you have your baseplates...

Since you have time I'd suggest starting here-

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration

Follow it to the letter then see how everything feels.  Maybe you learn something... Keeps ya' from going stir crazy.

After you did that SunSurfer has some guidance of his own out there somewhere..  try that to...

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@lonbordin was referring to this

 

Jack Michaud has also contributed this.

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/canting-and-lift.pdf

 

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Hmmmm.... Let me see if I can clarify things a bit.

So yes, I'm very familiar with both Beckmann's site/method and the above video. Tried them both, neither worked.

 

My main problem is that the board never wanted to go straight. Coming off the lift it would always swing counterclockwise (I'm a regular rider). The ONLY thing that has worked this far was 3 degrees of heel lift in the front.

I'm contemplating going back to 0 in the front and 3 in the back while biasing the bases towards the toe edge. I'm thinking that this might serve the same purpose. 

I can move the boots further forward in the bindings but since I'm riding 60/50 I would not get as much movement towards the toe edge.

with_plates.jpg.2803fb56e1aaa37de187218005c767d4.jpg

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14 minutes ago, JRAZZ said:

My main problem is that the board never wanted to go straight. Coming off the lift it would always swing counterclockwise

Could be your front binding is too far forward?

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After reading Beckmann's article I did think so, and moving it back certainly made the board turn less but it never got rid of that turn completely. It would always turn to the left.

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OK. Might be worth checking the base with a straight edge. If that looks good, I'm out 😀

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No worries 🙂

I have fought this problem for 3 years now with various boards and different levels of success.

Could be just the forward lean of the boot for all I know 🤦‍♀️

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Just maybe that new & improved back of yours will also cure this problem! Good luck. 

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47 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Might be worth checking the base with a straight edge.

I'm with Lurch on this conundrum.   Doesn't sound like the board is flat, which is very unusual for a Donek!

  If board is flat then maybe front binding  (or both) is to far back and nose isn't getting enough weight/input.

From your first 2 photos it looks like your setup has you really riding  with your weight in the back seat.

Try this:

1:  I'd move both bindings forward 1 set of inserts each.  Ride it...I bet that helps!   

2: and if you like that improvement then the next step would be  moving just the rear binding up another set of inserts.  That will get you weight up and over the nose and the board should track straight as an arrow! 

Side Effects:  If nose starts shoveling in and your tail starts washing out then you have gone to far forward and move rear foot back 1 set of inserts.

Once ya got it tracking straight then you can focus on bias....but you might be satisfied with the  rides with just this adjustment! 

Edited by barryj

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Same problem across different boards. Riding off the lift, (regular rider,front (left) foot locked in, rear foot not engaged in Intec?), all your boards turn to rider's left.

Something in your technique has you balancing in that situation that tilts the board onto its' left edge.

If it were me, I'd set my bindings to where I carve best with both feet engaged, which after all is the main point of binding setup. Then I'd go to the beginner's slope and practice riding straight with just my front foot engaged.

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28 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Is there even a hint of this issue while riding soft boots?

Yes. Not as pronounced but I think so.

For most of my softboot setups I moved the binding towards the toe edge and it made a real difference.

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Do you have any mobility issues?

How far forward is your typical Boot lean?

Now I'm thinking @JRAZZ has above average glute development! :eek:

Edited by lonbordin
Do you turn to the left while walking? ;-)

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6 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

 

Something in your technique has you balancing in that situation that tilts the board onto its' left edge.

 

This.

I would work on your core technique before making extreme-ish binding adjustments like that to compensate for whatever is really happening.  Bend knees rip hard.

I know it's been a few years since we've ridden together but from what I can remember your general body position is very upright and stiff.  Just my two cents

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As a general rule, if you tweak a particular variable to both ends of the scale, and you don't really resolve the issue, you're probably working the 'wrong' variable.

 

As Lonbordin suggests, you may have extremely limited dorsiflexion on one or both feet, which would cause you to lever against your highback when you try to bear weight on your entire (front)foot.

From the board's point of view, pressure and leverage both look like turning inputs, so even though you may not be bearing weight on your heel, the contact at the highback is creating a similar input/effect.

Adding heel lift to the front foot plate will affect pressure distribution, but will also move the top of the boot cuff forward, and so you'll still be applying leverage to the heelside edge, especially if you straighten the front leg to relax.

There is also the possibility that you have some manner of hindfoot issue, whereby the heelbone is slightly elevated, such that it won't bear weight unless either you 'rock' back on your foot, or you fill the void underneath.

That you also notice the tendency on softboots suggests that the problem is one more of conformation, than it is of equipment configuration, given that softboot gear is less sensitive to the more subtle alignment issues.

 

Do you tend to have tight hamstrings and/ or lower back pain, notable Achilles tendon issues or injuries? If so, uni or bilateral?

Are you a very good swimmer?

Are your calf muscles overly developed?

Do you tend to walk/run and or balance toward the forefoot?

Are you hypermobile?

If you stand casually barefoot on a level surface, close your eyes and relax, will you immediately fall over backward?

Do you recall any particular difficulty during your earliest snowboarding efforts? ('Normal' novices tend to favor their heelside edge. Those with hindfoot issues tend to favor the toeside edge, despite being more 'muscular').

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, JRAZZ said:

 

My main problem is that the board never wanted to go straight. Coming off the lift it would always swing counterclockwise (I'm a regular rider). The ONLY thing that has worked this far was 3 degrees of heel lift in the front.

When you were riding on flat, did the board do same thing and don’t want to go straight?

If so, is it possible that the boot center is not at the center of the binding?

As you said, it feels good to move the binding towards toe side AND the board swing counterclockwise without it, hence, the center of the boots are more towards the heel of the bindings so that heel side is engaging more? 

Any side photo of the boots on the bindings?

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Wow, ahemmm... Maybe I'm not the only overthinker here 🙂

 

OK, focus. Here's the problem. It's more acute on hardboots but still there in softboots. My boards always want to turn left when I relax (which is part of the problem with me riding stiff as @Carvin' Marvin pointed out). Very obvious when one-footing it. One solution I found was to add heel lift and outward canting to both feet. That worked remarkably well for me.

I am assuming I place a lot of my weight on my heels so I want to try to move the bindings towards the toe edge. This worked very well on my softboot boards. 

Now obviously my technique is wrong, I don't bend my knees enough, my skeleton is off, etc... Don't care. Want to have fun. If that means having a weird stance so be it.

I guess my question is would this shifting of the bindings really solve my auto-turning boards? Should I try to add more forward lean instead? Take up needle point?

 

I do plan to test this out next week. (hopefully I'll be healed enough)

 

p.s. Yes, I'm flexible, no I don't have mobility issues, yes I have lots of back issues (hence the surgery), not saying anything about cognitive abilities.

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DeeLuxe 700s your profile says...

BTS or Five position forward lean?

I challenge you to do the Beckmann setup with the forward lean to at least the third setting. If BTS crank that lower nut skyward.

Why? It will force you to bend that front knee and eliminate your issue.  I'll bet on it.

Fun??? If we wanted fun we'd be on 🛷

This is serious business!

 

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11 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Fun??? If we wanted fun we'd be on 🛷

This is serious business!

What was I thinking?!?!

FWIW I have BTS and I had the nut all the way on the bottom. I have now cranked it up to provide a lot more forward lean.

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7 hours ago, JRAZZ said:

Now obviously my technique is wrong, I don't bend my knees enough, my skeleton is off, etc... Don't care. Want to have fun. If that means having a weird stance so be it.

I guess my question is would this shifting of the bindings really solve my auto-turning boards? Should I try to add more forward lean instead? Take up needle point?

Technique is a byproduct of interface. Nobody is going to ride with poor technique if good technique is fully accessible, unless of course they want to do things the hard way.  

Or choose to remain ignorant.

->That you present with rigidity suggests that to relax would be problematic.

 

Shifting the bindings will mitigate the effect of the problem without addressing the problem.

Use the needle point to immortalize your actual solution.

 

Maybe one foot test your softy with the front highback removed. 

 

Am not familiar with your back issues. Care to elaborate?

 

 

 

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So me gots answers. Didn’t make a difference. 
 

I might keep it since I was able to ride out of the l lift better. I also think the boot is better centered on the board. I’ll take pictures later today. 
But I found out something new. I can’t ride with my knees together. I really have to have that outward cant or maybe increase the stance. 
 

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Pictures as promised.

I ended up with 60/45.  Might go lower on the back foot if I can, it really helps me maneuver the board.Photo1.jpg.b79f36a3d9ffc351b97aa71e3274d2c2.jpgPhoto2.jpg.d0227174b06c994dd6a8862c3757cd0c.jpgPhoto3.jpg.9e0ccd91684344993fd33a0c09f8af1f.jpg

(Yes, I know it's the right boot in the left binding. I am all about triggering your OCD)

 

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