Committing to hard boots as sole ;) set-up?!

[slipped to weekend warrio]

I've been consistently and happy lurking here for multi-years because I like thinking about gear and value your opinions since you focus on the art of turning. As yet only have bought and sold rocker 172 tanker (it was too soft and/or I couldn't adapt my style to rocker) 

I have found myself boot-less going into this season. This is the 1st time since 1988. I am thinking about making the plunge to hardboots, but not for carving (maybe 5-10%), and am asking to gain from your collective wisdom:

Is there a budget, hard boot and binding for sub-alpine all mountain riding in soft Oregon snow? I have my eye on used deeluxe indy and burton bindings. The boot sounds too stiff out of the box but can it be modded). Basically, can a budget hardboot set up be made to be a slightly stiffer than a burton driver and ride ex binding set-up?

Short prologue: 

I ride all all resort side/in-bounds (60% trees and 40% poorly grommed) in heavy Oregon powder, chunder, and slop-- even occasional rain as long as its slippery and soft. My boards are: 185 rosignol undertaker, 170 arbor a-frame, and 164(?) Ride decade wide. My stance is pretty crystallized at a little wider than shoulder width with front 18° and back 12°.

I'm a pretty aggressive rider (in soft snow) and am 6'3", 210#, and size 12 shoe. I've always had trouble with soft boots. They feel sloppy unless brand new, really tight laces, and binding straps. Last season I blew out 3-year old burton drivers and new old stock Nike zoom vapors. Admittedly, I have always sized down 1-1.5 sizes.

Until now, my biggest concern is that the ankle rigidity will facilitate to high of board angles in soft snow (loss of float in turns except at high speed and boot-out). My only experience with hard boots is in '99-2000 when I had raichle 724(#?) boots that I used with a burton e-wire (10-15x)  and supermodel 174 (<5x). I don't have many clear memories of those days specifically, but vaguely remember struggling in powder because of excessive high-angle board-tipping, from even slight input. 

Why was that so hard to write..? I am hoping to get a variety of responses, so any ideas or experience is welcome. Mods, if this fits in a better in all mountain hard booting, feel to move it

[lonbordin]

There are relevant threads to your question in progress, see below.

I spend 98% of my time in hardboots. 2% was for pond skimming events. I don't feel at all limited by my boots. Last season I was at Government Camp for a stretch and it snowed a lot during my time there.  I ended up riding my old LibTech Grocer a lot with fairly low angles... It was great.

Good luck!

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think those particular boots are too stiff for the angles you want to run. I’ve run hard boots only for 30 years now and I ride all over the mountain. IMO your boots need to allow some side to side motion for all mountain riding. 

[ibrussell]

I ride hard boot 100% of the time at higher angles, have a Ross 185 undertaker for 2' or deeper. I still use the Raichle 125 & 225  80% of the time, for  powder/crud and most of my carving. I'd look back into the Raichles 124-125-224-225 if you can find them. then add some BTS (Bomber Tuning System) springs maybe blue for your weight or yellow if you find 325's. you will have to learn not to put as much input into the board as the boots are more responsive.

[Freezer]

I'll be the contrarian here.  I've been hardbooting since 1992 and love it for carving on groomers.  I've hardbooted plenty off piste, backcountry and heli, and I feel that while it can work, it's not optimal.  Why?  With hardboots I feel that you don't have the range of motion and mobility to move your body in the best way to ride powder and it ends up feeling restricted and your riding looks pretty stiff.  If I were you, I'd look for some backcountry soft boots and pair them with some three strap bindings. Horses for courses and all...

[dredman]

1 hour ago, ibrussell said:

I ride hard boot 100% of the time at higher angles, have a Ross 185 undertaker for 2' or deeper. I still use the Raichle 125 & 225  80% of the time, for  powder/crud and most of my carving. I'd look back into the Raichles 124-125-224-225 if you can find them. then add some BTS (Bomber Tuning System) springs maybe blue for your weight or yellow if you find 325's. you will have to learn not to put as much input into the board as the boots are more responsive.

I 100% agree with this!  Soft flexing hard boots at lower angles work great off piste!  

[bumpyride]

dredman knows how I feel about my bedroom slipper 122s and 123s in Raichles off piste, into the bumps, and in waist deep powder

Restriction comes from stiffness in all the hardware.  If you're on a racing setup, it will be much more difficult, though not impossible.

Flex in your boots-fore and aft, and side to side make any off piste endeavors easy.  Control and maneuverability in powder/trees and bumps in my angles are best realized by a 15 to 20 degree offset in the bindings (at least in my riding) eg. 50 front-30 rear.  Softer flexing bindings are a plus too. 

Your mileage may vary, but I'm having a ball.

Best of luck to you. 

[lamby]

Way to commit!

I ride hard boots in all conditions. I soft boot snowboarded for a number of years, and until recently I would occasionally ride soft boots for a change of pace. It's fun to do, but I find myself cranking down on my binding straps to avoid heal lift on toe turns. I don't find riding soft boots comfortable for my feet or ankles at all. 

I really like the way my hard boots fit and feel - so comfortable. Custom footbeds and professionally molded Intuition liners. Boots are Deelux 700s with blue BTS. I also ski occasionally, but very occasionally these days.

I have been hard booting for about 20 years and over the years have ridden in many pairs of hard boots - in Burton hard boots back in the day, then Raichle and Deeluxe. 

11 hours ago, ibrussell said:

I ride hard boot 100% of the time at higher angles, have a Ross 185 undertaker for 2' or deeper. I still use the Raichle 125 & 225  80% of the time, for  powder/crud and most of my carving. I'd look back into the Raichles 124-125-224-225 if you can find them. then add some BTS (Bomber Tuning System) springs maybe blue for your weight or yellow if you find 325's. you will have to learn not to put as much input into the board as the boots are more responsive.

Brussels advice above is sound.

In my experience, there has always been a learning/adjusgment curve when I have moved up to a new boot. I have often found the next level of boot seems too stiff at first, but after some time the new, stiffer boots seem less so. Then they are great and perfect and why did I ever think they were too stiff. But then, when I went from Raichle 324s (I think that was their #) to Deeluxe 700s I found them to be more stiff than I wanted. I rode them a lot, but I just felt like they were too stiff for me to really enjoy, so I added BTS (blue springs). That did the trick and I love them.

I ride plate bindings and hard boots in powder and love it. I feel that the most important thing to consider is the choice of board for the conditions of the day. On a deep powder day I ride a Donek Nomad 164 or a Burton Fish 160. On new snow days I ride a Burton Malolo 160, which I love for off piste and crud and for getting around on the groomers in-between. I ride a Burton e-deck 163 as things start to settle out. I like it for playing on and off of the groomed runs. As the groomers become the main draw I move to my Prior FLC 177.

Happy riding!!!

[slipped to weekend warrio]

This is great. Thanks for the range of responses! Even the contrarian fuelling my waffling tendencies. :),,, but I am pretty sure I am ready to commit.

My hold up is my I am blessed with only the AD part of ADHD and have too many leisure interests that, along with outfitting my middle school aged family, limits what I can justify spending on personal gear (recently picked up skiing and snowboarding could atrophy if I don't figure out the right boot set-up the first try). There is no way I can buy unused/new snowboard boots. If I could, I think I would consider a AT ski boot such as the backland

I need to know more about the potential used market options for flexible hardboot set-ups. I'm curious about what plate bindings and hard boots, that I might find on the used market, are considered soft. Also, although I have read alot about the subject on these boards and split board forums, I'm dangerously under educated about modifying hardboot hardware and/or shells. Will a stiff boot such as the deeluxe indy surrender to become  a "bedroom slipper 122 or 123 Raichle" when the bts with soft springs is applied? Are ther other modification techniques to employ in order to soften stiffer boots?

Again any and all input, including ideas about where to source used hardboot gear is, highly appreciated. 

 

 

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

The bts softens it up fore and aft but not sideways. 
 

The major source for used gear is here in the classifieds. 

[Aracan]

In my experience, a softer tongue (can be sanded down to make it thinner) and a spring system can soften up any boot significantly. Also, many boots have  a smaller tongue-like part in the rear that protrudes up from the lower part of the shell. Cutting this will also make the boot softer. In addition to the BTS, there are other spring systems such as ACSS, DGSS etc. None of them do anything for lateral flex, but if you stay the hell away from step-in bindings and go for Burton/Ibex or other flexy bail bindings such as the F2 Carve RS, this will provide some lateral mobility.

[Corey]

An intermediate step: Connect with someone local to you to try hardboots and plates on your current soft board. 

Hardbooters are generally eager to help someone try the gear, as we all remember that initial purchase and fear it brought. 

[slipped to weekend warrio]

I got one step closer today by picking up some bindings. Older burtons. They look like they're from the mid-90s (board is a green Alp71). @Aracan, thanks for the tip on bail bins being flexier--makes sense but I wouldn't have put it together had you not commented.

The board and bindings look pretty sun cooked. However it looks like all the critical parts of the bindings are metal, except the toe clips (they look ok) and mounting disks (coincidentally I stumbled on some new ones today). Please,  speak up if you see I'm over looking a safety hazard here! The new disks were left overs from a friends step-on bindings along with the binding bag. So, I have new disks and a slick way to store the bindings until I find boots. I'm still a little worried about the disks even though they are new since they are plastic. I shattered a rear burton disk a few years ago.

Unfortunately the board is no good as the base is delaminating from the sun.

Getting closer

[lamby]

A word of warning about using used-bindings. It is impossible to know how degraded the metal bails are on used-bindings. They may be almost brand new and lightly used, or they may be well-used and ready to break.

I have ridden, and continue to use a variety of bindings, including Burton/Ibex/Carve Co plate bindings, F2 Titanium, and Bomber TD3s. I have broken bails on all of them (well, not the F2 Titaniums, as those are relatively new and I have less than 40 days on them). I replace the bails on my Burton/Ibex/Carve Co. bindings every three years, and I do the same for my wife's bindings - she rides over 100 days a year, and breaks bails if they have seen too may years of use.

New replacement parts for Burton/Ibex/Carve Co bindings seem to be getting pretty hard to find. Used parts are easy to find, but I have no interest in purchasing used replacement parts for my bindings. Lately, I've again been looking for new replacement bails for Burton/Ibex/Carve Co. bindings, and I have not had any luck. So, I just purchased a couple of sets of new bindings online, as it is time to switch out bails or upgrade to new bindings on a couple of our boards.

Donek used to sell replacement bails for Ibex/Carve Co bindings, but I'm not seeing those available there any more.

Anyway, I just wanted to pipe up to say it is important to your safety that you keep your bindings maintained. If in doubt, throw it out. The costs of doing so is a drag, but it is just not worth it to risk riding on gear that could break and cause you and others serious trouble.

Ride gear that is not going to let you down.

Edited December 21, 2019 by lamby
spelling and grammer

[slipped to weekend warrio]

Thanks for the warning. I am glad that you spoke up, @)lamby! I have no interest in risking a broken binding again. I will donate the bindings back to the store today--only $18 lost to the thriftstore and they support good causes, so no harm there. An active life is risky enough even with equipment you can trust.

Edited December 21, 2019 by slipped to weekend warrio
Incorrect spelling

[lamby]

Right on Slipped To.

While I said you can't know the condition of used-bails, you may be able to glean information from the seller, or observe the condition and description of the items for sale before purchase. Those things can help to inform your decision about purchasing used bindings, especially on a place like this site. Here, if a seller says that a pair of bindings is lightly used and in very good condition, I would listen to them and make a decision based on that. Good photos of the bindings is also very helpful if considering an online purchase. I've been very pleased with the purchases I've made on this site's For Sale section, and the people populating this site are a good group.

Ask questions and if the seller doesn't know how old the bindings are, or how well used they are, I would suggest not buying them.

If you are inspecting a pair of bindings you can look at the amount of wear that is evident on the bindings. Are the metal base plates worn at the places where the previous owner's boots have made contact with the bindings? On Burton/Ibex/C.Co style bindings the metal base plates have little bumps on them - at the areas where the boot soles will be contacting the base plate of the binding. At those contact points you might notice wear.  These may be worn down or you may notice other areas of wear and loss of metal. The bails themselves can also show wear, but not necessarily. Some bails come with a coating that can show wear, but that coating becomes chipped pretty quickly, so it is perhaps not a very reliable indicator.

Does anyone know where new replacement bails for Burton/Ibex/Carve Co. bindings might be available?

[pokkis]

14 hours ago, lamby said:

Does anyone know where new replacement bails for Burton/Ibex/Carve Co. bindings might be available?

https://www.carversparadise.com/index.php?cPath=103_119&osCsid=4eb9be2c942d770be6ef02b7de035df2

Edited December 22, 2019 by pokkis

[lamby]

Thank you Pokkis!

[neanderthal]

Take a look at some AT boots. There are a few good mods available on splitboard forums or phantom bindings website if you find them firm or limiting in range of motion.  The shells as well as liners are/can be  heat moldable so you can get amazing fit. depending on the boot you may be able to downsize a shell and have an overall shorter setup than with soft  boots. Used or older season AT boots will save you some cash.  I love these for the type of riding you describe and as a bonus walk mode makes hiking so much easier. Hiking in AT boots is as or more comfortable than softboots while probably being lighter. Yes more comfortable because of unrestricted ankle motion.

This is my overall go to setup unlus it is truly deep then I know I won't have to hike much and if I get sunk in the powder might have a hard time digging out so I go with stepins. (So much easier reaching for a cable at the boot cuff than flipping a toe lever or ratcheting softies when you are sunk up to your chest)

Deeluxe free69 with this spring system (http://www.primeboards.pl/en/project/springs-en/) are amazing!  Much better than bts in my opinion. Lower profile and the range of motion feels more dynamic without a dead spot in the middle. 

[b0ardski]

if we could only get a light AT boot with interchangeable heels ,pintech/fintech/intech/DINtech

One boot to rule them all bwaahaaahaa

[b0ardski]

I've ridden SB's since "95 and have never used a spring system on them. My blax/head had a spring sytem, but it wasn't very adjustable I like the low profile of that Prime spring but I reallllly want walk mode too like the Backland/Phantom, pllleeeaaasssee Atomic, put a swapable heel on the backlands for us please, I'll give you a $1000.

Edited December 24, 2019 by b0ardski

[neanderthal]

b0ardski

I share your sentiment! 

However, adding a swappable heel would not be as awesome as making a snowboard binding that worked with the AT standard. A swappable heel would certainly be heavier, raise the heel up a bit,  only work on a limited set of feet(one model vs many), and as a special edition the cost would be higher as people couldn't search for bargains and closeouts from the wider market of AT ski equipment.  The AT standard is defined and the market is moving - it is in my opinion better to harness that energy by riding the wave than to swim upstream trying to define a new standard. 

Why not continue with the standard toe lever bindings?  AT boots have nonstandard toe and heel grooves and the tlt7/8 has no toe groove at all (with some good reason for skinning and potentially benifit for snowboarding ) Here is probably the best reason - stepins. Sure I just lost all the "hardcore" racer types OK.  This is an aging sport what is our average age? Some of us have a hard time with the regular bindings but just suck it up. That isn't even the biggest market for this it is all the kids Burton is targeting with stepon. No one likes clipping in at the top of the hill!  In this way skiers really do have it better. I started carving at a time that there were many advantages over ski equipment crossing over from skis. Today I'm not sure I would have made the jump as skis have gotten much better.  Solve the stepin problem with off the shelf boots and we will see more people giving it a try

 

Any engineering types interested please dm me I have given this a bit of thought

[philw]

I think you're correct, if you're saying that it would be better to build a snowboard binding for AT boots rather than try to go the other way around. I would be gobsmacked if Phantom and possibly others in the splitboard business haven't thought of that already.

Even so, it's actually quicker to use traditional clip (as opposed to Intec) in deep snow, as you don't have to bother clearing out the snow as much as with Intec. Plus I almost never stop mid run... so although step-in is nice, it's not really a big deal to have it.

Phantom's split board bindings are almost good enough to use for Alpine already, I think a few small changes by them could result in something clever to work with AT boots. The catch is that they're split-focused, so they may not see the opportunity....