Hardboots powder set up.

[yamifumi]

Let’s see those powder set up with hardboots.

1.) How are your angles / lift / cant  different from your alpine set up.

2.) is your stance different? 

3.) what board do you use for pow days, are the board custom or stock pow board?

I am curious as I tried to get back on soft boots set up (always been on hard boots for >10 years) for pow days but I HATED the feel of softboots. Thanks all!!

[b0ardski]

my 1st hardboot powder set up circa ' 87

stance10*r 45*f

I also hate the feel of glorified sorels and straps,

lots of experimenting over the years and settled on 30*r 45*f  +/-, for most everything

more recent boards

sold my split because I really don't like rocker and havent replaced it yet; the scarpas are great for backcountry (backlands would be better) but I used them on the libtech Grocer with burton bindinngs at MCC last year.

I like softer old raichle/deeluxe best for pow and ponds

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by b0ardski

[Corey]

I ride UPZ RC10 hardboots in powder.  Not because they're superior to softboots, but because I own hardboots and not softboots.  

1. I back my angles down so my rear foot has a little overhang.  My front foot is about 20 degrees more towards the nose.  45F, 25R for my current board.  I usually run 6 degrees toe lift front, 6 degrees heel lift rear for alpine, but swap the rear cant disc to a 3-degree for powder.  I leave the cant discs as 60/50, while the binding tops rotate, so that means more inward cant and less toe/heel lift.  Sometimes I unlock the rear boot forward lean, sometimes I don't.  Maybe I could optimize more, but I'm not stopping to mess with bindings on a powder day.  Felt natural and comfortable for 4 days of pow at 2019 MCC.  

2. Stance width is as close to my alpine stance as 4x4 inserts allow.  

3. Currently Dupraz D1+.  Have had a ton of fun on OSin 3800 as well.  I'd follow @philw's advice and get a modern powder board from one of the freestyle board makers if I were buying now.  They have a lot of R&D in making good powder boards.  

3.a. Having an inexpensive board that you can ride in low-snow conditions is very freeing.  I took numerous rock hits in the trees in Aspen a few years ago - no cares given on a $100 board.  That was a FANTASTIC day!  It would have been decidedly less fun if I were adding burrs to the edges on a $1000 custom board.  

[philw]

There are lots of ways to do this, as I often have to say to people who slag off my own choice of gear prior to a day's riding, and the other people who're trying to work out how some old guy on antique gear kicked their arse.

I've seen quite a few hard booters riding race gear in powder. I even did that myself for a few years, until I banged the nose of my Nitro Scorpion SL 162 into a buried tree and was forced by lack of replacements to borrow a powder board. I never looked back.

1. Angles are identical. My angles are mellower than they used to be when narrow boards were fashionable. 45 degrees parallel for me works on piste and in powder.
    
2. Stance identical, except as already pointed out sometimes the minimum stance width on powder boards can be too wide. There was a time when that was a bit of a problem with some manufacturers (Salomon comes to mind), but that fashion is mostly gone, and now all I need to do is go a bit narrower than the marked reference stance and it's about right.
    
3. The board I carry around is a Burton Dump Truck from a couple of seasons back. I tend to ride most non-trick-oriented Burton powder boards and maybe some Capita ones each season.

I have to travel to get to the snow, so I can't be carrying lots of gear about. So I have one pair of boots & bindings for both piste and powder. I do carry two boards if I'm expecting both conditions. I often ride "resort powder" on my SL board, using my powder board all the time for helicopters.

My home mountains are the Alps, but most of my powder's been in BC. I'm unconvinced that a custom builder can challenge the R&D capabilities of the major companies, and I can't afford to get someone to build me multiple boards to test. There are multiple boards available to test already, so I just ride those until I find one which is right for me. Size and flex are at least as important in powder as they are on piste - too soft or too hard and you lose the control of rider and flex working together. You can ride anything, but getting the right board makes it so much better.

Here's a rental Dump Truck with my own F2 Intec bindings and HSP boots. I shall be riding similar stuff in 4 days albeit with Atomic Backlands in standard F2 bindings, which cuts about 2Kgs off my hand baggage weight.

 

[boardguru]

I ride Deeluxe 225's  with F2 Race Titaniums.

 Angles are 45 F, 27 R. Stance is identical as my carving boards, but bindings are run flat. No cant, no lift.

Powder board is a 185 Rossignol Undertaker.

[barryj]

Running same angles and close to same stance as my Alpine rides but lowered rear ft. heel lift from 6 to a 3 degree TD3 SW SI disk

For pow I use a softer hardboot,  Deeluxe 225's  but still running BTS  with softest springs

Using my Moss PQ60 Swallowtail for pow which has Great setback for relaxed pow riding...no trouble, no effort, no fighting to  keep the nose up!    Been in waist deep a few times and no prob....

 

[bigwavedave]

6 hours ago, philw said:

You can ride anything, but getting the right board makes it so much better.

Here's a rental Dump Truck with my own F2 Intec bindings and HSP boots. I shall be riding similar stuff in 4 days albeit with Atomic Backlands in standard F2 bindings, which cuts about 2Kgs off my hand baggage weight.

Great edit Phil !! 

I'm not very experienced in deep powder, and was quite over my head in waist deep at MCC, but for what it's worth, I found getting a super soft pair of old Raichles (SB413's) more compatible for soft and deep conditions. Thanks to @b0ardski for steering me in that direction.

A wider stance and more splay than my carving set-up was more comfortable for me. Taper.

 

 

 

[big mario]

Hey Yasu,

Bummed you're not riding with us this season, but I get it, I hear the basin has been pretty awesome so far!

For Pow I get one of my longer and fatter sticks out, adjust my binders down a bit until my boots are at the edges of the board, and just ride.  I don't put as much into my cuffs, and I am a wee bit more subtle with my inputs(I know, hard to believe...) until I hit any groom on my way back to the lift. All bets are off then.

Mario

 

[yamifumi]

Thanks all for the tips! I have not messed with it much but plan to do more soft snow/pow riding this year as it seems more snow in CO!

1.) I usually ride 57.5 (F) w/ toe lift / 56 (R) w/ heel lift (all lifts are about 4.5deg) on Alpine set up and I have ridden almost the same on Jones pow board but it felt so weird and sooooooo soft. I feel like I am pedaling it hard LoL

This year I am gonna try much lower angles and just the front toe lift and no rear heel lift. See where it goes.

 

@big mario, I had double down at Abasin last year and got IKoN so i decided not to get the Loveland pass but I will def come by when there is more snow but it seems like more terrains are open! Hope to see you soon

Edited December 16, 2019 by yamifumi

[RCrobar]

Hello Yamifumi

I agree with Phil, there are a lot of ways to have fun and get the job done in powder. 

I go both ways, pretty sure it was Woody Allen who said that going both ways doubles your chance for a date on Saturday night;)

I really have a lot of fun with both hard and soft boots in powder.  I love the mobility of soft boots and the power of hard boots.  Depending on the type of conditions, the terrain, etc. determines which set up I'll use.

I have put a lot of time into figuring out what works for me personally in powder with regards to both hard and soft boots, so here is my 2 cents:

When compared to my alpine set up, my hard boot powder stance set up is wider, flatter and uses cants on both feet. 

I've spent quite a bit of time doing a few Soft boot runs in a powder, then swithing up to a few powder runs in a Hard boot set up.  I try to NOT look at the numbers when doing this as I can be a bit crazy with predetermined ideas about what my stance numbers should be.  

What I found is that the feeling of heel-toe and tip-tail balanced feeling of my soft boot set up in powder has 'influenced' over time my hard boot powder set up.

Soft Boots - 33F - 9R, 23" width (Dupraz 193, 10.5m SCR, Trapper Trout Trap 160, 9m SCR)

Hard Boots - 40ish Front (bit under) 4 degrees inward cant, 25ish Rear (bit over) 8 degrees inward cant, 23" wide.  I have a 32" inseam.  Northwave Point 900 boots with aproximately 2cm of no spring; zero preload for 2cm.  The first few degress of ankle bend on my hard and soft boots feels very similar. (Pogo Longboard 180, 8m SCR, Swoard Dual 175, 10.5m SCR)

There seems to be something magic about 45F-30R in hardboots and 30R-10R in softboots for POWDER as a good place to start ... and then move around when on the hill riding as needed.

An area that is not talked about a lot but could be interesting to hear the thoughts and ideas of others is do Hardboot powder riders use the same technique with your alpine and powder set ups (pressure the nose, ride centered, static vs rotating upper body, etc, etc.)?  

It would seem to me that this might change the feeling-movements you are trying to achieve and how a rider would adjust their set up accordingly.

It is ironic to me that Phil uses 45 F&R in HB only, while Softbootsurfer uses 45 R&R in SB only as both guys have a lot of powder experience ... a lot of ways to have fun and get the job done:)

Hope this helps

Rob

[philw]

4 hours ago, RCrobar said:

... An area that is not talked about a lot but could be interesting to hear the thoughts and ideas of others is do Hardboot powder riders use the same technique with your alpine and powder set ups (pressure the nose, ride centered, static vs rotating upper body, etc, etc.)?  

It would seem to me that this might change the feeling-movements you are trying to achieve and how a rider would adjust their set up accordingly.

It is ironic to me that Phil uses 45 F&R in HB only, while Softbootsurfer uses 45 R&R in SB only as both guys have a lot of powder experience ... a lot of ways to have fun and get the job done:)

As you say, there lots of ways to do it. I agree that if you wish to use different styles, you would probably use different settings for each.

I'd started with the orthodoxy at the time, which was to use steeper angles for piste. I wondered if that was probably simply an effect of board width, so I decided to increase my powder angles, and reduce my piste angles until both were the same. I didn't notice much difference on piste or in powder, so I stuck with a simple "both the same" . That's perhaps a compromise, but it's one which I could easily overcome. 

As it happens I also use boards of the same length in powder and on piste.

I have some POV videos of powder and a few of piste... I must be adjusting, but my action looks essentially the same. 

Do other people ride with different styles?

If you ride both hard and soft set ups, how does your upper body differ between the two? It's been a while since I rode soft, and I'm not equally competent, but the driving force is very different in soft, is it not?

For no boarding a hard boot stance would not work as you couldn't pressure the edge and stability would be a circus trick. I can't ride soft boots with alpine angles at all. Some images/video of Softbootsurfer riding high soft boot angles in powder would be educational.

[RCrobar]

Hi Phil

Thank you for your very thoughtful reply, this is the type of conversation I hoped might get going and I appreciate hearing your thoughts!  I don't have the answers to these questions, only highly biased opinions.  I am hopeful that the army of talented and experienced riders from this site will take the time to weigh in their thoughts.

For me personally I think we are where we come from, back to the beginning as you mentioned.  Does a rider live where they see a lot or little powder (opportunity), are they more senior and started when boards were wide and Sorels were the norm, were you a life time skier, racer, surfer, skater before boarding, etc, etc.  I believe that this has more affect on what feels right in powder then any particular stance angle or board width; this influences a rider towards a particular technique and set up.  This too may affect the advice that they will give new powder riders, which potentially could be positive or negative.

For me personally I use the same technique with both hard and soft boots, piste or powder, regardless of the stance angles or board width.  As I have aged I have tried soooo many stances and set ups that I now choose boards to match my preferred stance and set up.  I think your thoughts on no boarding stance and technique is really interesting as well and could lead to more questions and answers.

Cheers

Rob

My first set up below:

[RCrobar]

Hi Phil

Loved your video, what beautiful conditions and nice riding!  That Burton DumpTruck looks like it would be a lot of fun as well.

You are using the surf based rotation technique in the video you attached, check out the Plus and Minus pictures from the screen shots that I lifted from you video.  

If I were you I would experiment with the back foot to see how this feels, particularly on the steeps when you have to make quick turns to miss a tree, etc. as a flatter back foot generally makes it easier to initiate the rotation.

Cheers

Rob

[bigwavedave]

15 hours ago, RCrobar said:

Hi Phil

Loved your video, what beautiful conditions and nice riding!  That Burton DumpTruck looks like it would be a lot of fun as well.

You are using the surf based rotation technique in the video you attached, check out the Plus and Minus pictures from the screen shots that I lifted from you video.  

If I were you I would experiment with the back foot to see how this feels, particularly on the steeps when you have to make quick turns to miss a tree, etc. as a flatter back foot generally makes it easier to initiate the rotation.

Cheers

Rob

...easy to forget he's holding an invisible 5' long pole with a camera on the end!

[philw]

On 12/19/2019 at 10:13 AM, RCrobar said:

...I am hopeful that the army of talented and experienced riders from this site will take the time to weigh in their thoughts.

..For me personally I use the same technique with both hard and soft boots, piste or powder, regardless of the stance angles or board width.  As I have aged I have tried soooo many stances and set ups that I now choose boards to match my preferred stance and set up.  I think your thoughts on no boarding stance and technique is really interesting as well and could lead to more questions and answers.

 Nice first set up.

I try not to give anyone I meet "on the hill" advice as I'm not an expert at their technique, although some defects are obvious.

It's a good point that people likely pick boards which match their abilities/ approach. I reckon there's a range of gear I find acceptable, and I adapt pretty quickly to that, but then there's other gear which I "don't like" because I can't easily make it work without bigger changes.

I was thinking about the "is the technique the same or not" issue. I also asked a bunch of technically mined expert powder skiers (competent snowboarders are harder to find) over the last few days. I think that there are two approaches: some skiers use modified technique in powder (they bounce), others don't. I think I use the same technique, hence I don't change my set up. People who use a different style for each type of snow would likely need different settings. => there are multiple ways to do this and no "correct" answer.

Thanks for the video analysis - that is useful as like a bunch of other people I learned before they had teachers so have little idea about what I'm doing other than I do stuff which works. As noted, the pole does f-up the style a bit although I ought to have worked it out by now. I shall muck around with the back foot a bit in a while - it's easy enough to do...

[RCrobar]

Hi Phil

Interesting conversation with the veteran powder skiers.  

I don't 'bounce' in the snow either, not that there is anything wrong with that.  In past years bouncing in the powder for me generally meant I needed a board with way more surface area, more speed or both. 

I 'think' that bouncing in powder or pushing off of the bottom would be similar to a 'cross over' transition.  I think that what your video shows, and what I think I feel, is more of a 'cross through' transition.  A powder game I play on days when there is maybe 10cm on top of bullet proof ice is to see how many turns I can link without hitting the hard ice below; feels like a cross through to me when doing this.

I spent a bit of time watching noboarders and their technique.  IMHO most seem to be using the surf based rotation technique, but not all of them are; of the few videos I watched (NOT and expert in this at all!).  

What I see are a few guys with a more static upper body.  What I see here are noboard turns that are fairly straight down the fall line and ')' shaped.  These turns seem to be initiated by the legs/ankles via SCR that look really tight.  When making more 'C' shaped turns these riders tend to be in counter-rotation from time to time.  Both are good techniques to have in the bag:)

Interesting discussion Phil, thank you for this and Merry Christmas!

Jeremy Jensen, Grassroots Powsurf Founder:

 

[Lurch]

@RCrobar I sooo enjoyed that vid; thanks for posting! Merry Xmas.

[philw]

Well who'd have thought it, I must have ridden 45 parallel for at least a decade, but after @RCrobar's suggestion, I backed off the rear foot 10 degrees so now it's 45f 35r. That worked really well. Not night and day better, but not worse. It may be psychological, but air seemed easier to land well and I'm not about to revert it. Thanks - interesting, and helpful!

I think that analysis is right about cross-over etc in the skiing style.

I think snowboarders generally use cross through or cross-under in powder. One advantage of helicopters is there's no "base", but that's what throws some new people, as resort powder has that feature.

I'd seen the noboard vid before, and almost bought one of their boards... I'm not great at no-boarding, but I can get down pure powder runs where there's no crust or wind-blown - it's not very versatile and I'd hate it at a resort as riding surface lifts would be a nightmare. Definitely interesting to think about the style though, as it's unfettered by the complexity of bindings.

Have a great xmas!