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Beginner Needing Advice...(what's new?)


jonny.a

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Hi! Longtime lurker, first time poster here.

 

I'm new to the hardbooting world and...well...trying to work out if it's something I want to continue with. In short, I bought some used gear and have tried it out a few times but really don't feel like it's working for me - the only problem is that I don't know if it's ME or the GEAR (or how I have it setup). I don't feel like I have much control when I'm on my hardboot setup, especially at slower speeds.

The conditions I've ridden in have been FAR from ideal for carving, and that's where my problem arises: in reality I want a setup that I CAN ride (happily) all day in all conditions. And I want to be comfortable.

I've ridden softboots for quite a long time, but would call myself "intermediate-pretending-to-be-advanced" standard (in that I can ride quickly and completely in control, but never really progressed into carving in softies).

 

The reason I wanted to try hardbooting is that I love the smooth freecarve style. Not really interested in the "ExtremeCarve" style. The forward stance and hard boots seem to be perfect for that. I'm not fussed about switch riding or tricks/jumps or anything. Just want to be able to ride smoothly and comfortably all day.

 

My current setup: Raichle 213/TwoThirteen (???) boots, Volkl RT/Renntiger 173 board with basic Volkl bindings.

I'm 5'10 (178cm), 78kg (172lbs), and UK size 10 feet (Mondo 28.5).

 

Basically I want to know: do I need a different boot/board setup in order to ride comfortably on all conditions with hard boots? OR should I just quit and get a stiff softboot carving setup instead?

Like I say, my priorities are: smooth freecarving & ALL DAY/ALL CONDITIONS comfort.

 

Thanks in advance (and also thanks in arrears for all the advice I've taken from this forum so far!)

Jonny

Edited by jonny.a
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Thanks @lonbordin!

I have a Volkl Renntiger 173 board with standard Volkl bindings and some veeery old Raichle SB boots

I've been trying to play around with the setup, but struggling to get anything feeling comfortable. I have fairly large feet so that seems to dictate that I need quite steep angles as my board is quite narrow. The last I tried was 55/55 front and rear, but it still didn't feel right.

I suppose what I'm hoping to work out is: with the right board/boots are hardboots a good choice for all conditions and all day riding, or are softboots a better option?

And if hardboots ARE a good choice, do I need different equipment, or is my technique just terrible haha?

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I can't speak for all, but I ride hardboots for everything. Mostly because I don't want to deal with two different sets of boots and bindings. I do change boards based on conditions - powder board for pow, big GS board for nice wide runs, etc. 

It takes a few days before the motions start to feel natural. 

Most beginners struggle with the steep angles, mostly getting your hips aligned with your feet. Especially on heelside turns. Focus on rotating your hips towards the nose of the board. 

That's very general advice - some may apply to you. If you can ride with another hardbooter or put video up here, you'll get more specific advice. 

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Nothing wrong with 55 55, but I would recommend no canting, just heel toe lift

Any part of your body hurts? Or just general feeling of not carving all that well? If some part hurts it's technique/setup/equipment issue, but if not it would be just technique.

Technique and feeling come with time, gotta get comfortable with that 'norm' stance, good practice drills on the article section, probably a good idea to stay on easier slopes until you are super comfortable carving on them with the stance.

Also, if your local place has thicker powder, that's gonna be more physically draining, just keep that in mind.

Also, with hardboot you have to be more in tune with your core, mainly the idea of angulation instead of inclination.

Best way I could put angulation is creating an angle in your body with your ab muscles, board will naturally balance and create edging. To me it's the foundation to any type of carving.

Edited by pauleleven
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everything is a compromise - that's why most of the guys on this board have a quiver of boards for different conditions.  Boots are similar, but its more of a pain to bring two pairs of boots than to stack your rides in a carrier.  A lot of guys here ride hardboots in all conditions, but there;s a reason why you don't see more guys in the park, or in boardercross races, for example, in hardboots.  For me, when bumps get too firm and bumpy, hard boots are just too harsh for me.  So yes its a compromise.  

as others will say here, it takes time to get to the level that the best carvers here can do, esp if you feel you haven't gotten to the point of carving well on softboots.  Look at some of the critique re riding threads on this board and see how long they have ridden for to get to where they are.  Same has gone for me .  But I love the progression and learning so i stick with it.  You really have to commit to it, but it will reward you.

Edited by Missionman
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I may be burned for this but here goes.

Take a step back. The true points made so far are take it easy, it's a journey, and figure out your stance first.

Carpet board. If it hurts standing still while stable there's a good chance that it's going to hurt while in motion.

Do you normally ride your soft set up with splay? How do you normally stand? Do you do squats and deadlifts? How are your feet angled then? 

In short, the question is how do you normally move through space? Anything that impedes flexion and extension, and especially range of motion in the hips is going to make riding more difficult. 

Use that with some influence from your softie set up (which may not be optimal) and carpet board. Once you can drop your hips straight down over the center of the board without needlessly contorting your body or hurting yourself you may have taken a step forward. If you can't move, boarding is a battle. And even with all of this, you have likely not arrived yet.

Take it easy. Do the norm (mellow greens) and really focus on good clean mechanics. Folks get caught up in jumping to angulation and driving the knees without reminding themselves of riding stacked. Riding stacked isn't the be all end all, but it's a fundamental step. Do that for a fair bit while you get things dialed in. Then move on technique wise.

And that renntiger that you are on is a wonderful demanding board. Take your time.

In short, be patient. Dedicate an hour or 2 every time you go out to figuring things out. Then ride in softies if conditions have really deteriorated. A very focused hour of deliberate practise will pay off greater dividends than fighting to stay alive for 8 while beating yourself up.

It isn't hopeless. You've taken the first step on an endless journey. 

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3 minutes ago, alpinegirl said:

Take a step back. The true points made so far are take it easy, it's a journey, and figure out your stance first.

Carpet board. If it hurts standing still while stable there's a good chance that it's going to hurt while in motion.

Do you normally ride your soft set up with splay? How do you normally stand? Do you do squats and deadlifts? How are your feet angled then? 

In short, the question is how do you normally move through space? Anything that impedes flexion and extension, and especially range of motion in the hips is going to make riding more difficult. 

Use that with some influence from your softie set up (which may not be optimal) and carpet board. Once you can drop your hips straight down over the center of the board without needlessly contorting your body or hurting yourself you may have taken a step forward. If you can't move, boarding is a battle. And even with all of this, you have likely not arrived yet.

Take it easy. Do the norm (mellow greens) and really focus on good clean mechanics. Folks get caught up in jumping to angulation and driving the knees without reminding themselves of riding stacked. Riding stacked isn't the be all end all, but it's a fundamental step. Do that for a fair bit while you get things dialed in. Then move on technique wise.

Awesome advice! I tend to forget how much time I spent standing on carpet, tweaking things a bit here and a bit there. Then ride and adjust some more. 

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Welcome! As you mentioned yourself, you have a couple different and atleast for now, seperate issues and or goals. As @pauleleven said, does anything hurt or feel uncomfortable? I am presuming so as it sounds like you are unable to achieve your second point of riding all day.

If it is your feet, take a look at your boots.. Have they been molded? Have you seen a boot fitter? Do you have a good footbeds? Preferably custom but don't know that you want to spend that money yet. Eventually take into consideration that boots last year's and years, most have 1 pair, and they are the direct interface to your body, directly affecting comfort. Doesn't it make sense to spend good money and time on them? 

If it's your legs, take a look at your binding setup and boot canting. This one is very subjective, and often takes a long time to get just right. You should be able to be comfortable and completely relaxed just standing there watching TV for a while. @alpinegirl makes some great points here. Then see if it is still comfortable on snow. @SunSurferposted an in depth video that shows approximately around 60 degrees no side to side can't is needed on average. Notice the qualifiers? Everyone is different haha. If you are very technical minded and want to go down the rabbit hole, @Beckmann AGhas a guide http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding which is amazing, but also might scare you away if you aren't ready for it....

Once you get there, it is 90% technique. Best advice  is what @Corey mentioned. Get some video footage and post it for critique, otherwise we are shooting in the dark hoping to hit something. You might want to find what kind of riding you really want to do too. Probably a decent starting point is to YouTube riding with guys who can really really carve by Ryan knapton. There's a number of individuals in it with varying forms. Find out what appeals to you and keep that in mind as you ride (those riders are here too, if you ask you can probably find out who they are) 

For riding all conditions, there's a lot of stuff out there. Don't get dragged into the "if I have this gear I can do this" mind set, because it really is 90% technique. That being said, boards are built to handle specific situations. I am not a board aficionado,  so I'm not sure what you have, but you are going to eventually want a board built within the last 10 years, with metal, and preferably designed for all mountain riding, based only on what you posted. But seriously, focus on technique and advice given here for now unless you have money to burn and/or see a killer deal on the classifieds. You may find that that "perfect board" is something entirely different. 

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Thanks everyone for the seriously awesome advice! In response to @AcousticBoarder and @pauleleven yes, boots are hurting, and in general I'm not comfortable on the board at all. They're old boots, and I got some decent footbeds for them, but think the liners might be shot. So maybe a trip to the bootfitter is in order! I only discovered today that the forward lean on them is adjustable as well, so will play around with that too.

@alpinegirl I usually have a bit of splay on softies. Generally back foot at 0 and front at maybe 10-15. So a bit different to 55/55 😅 Naturally my feet are a bit splayed too.

I think based on everyone's responses I should stick with the hardboots. Something about it really appeals to me. I just need to spend time re-learning my stance and riding style. I probably have a LOT of bad habits to iron out (probably the downside to learning at a young age but not continuing with an instructor).

I think my plan of action now is:

1. Visit the bootfitter!

2. Source a decent, used all-mountain board (any suggestions?? Or anyone in Europe selling one??)

3. "Carpet ride" and play around with my stance until I'm comfortable and balanced

4. Rigorously go through the "beginner" steps recommended here and in the carver's almanac, starting with "the norm".

5. Practice, practice, practice, practice, and on special occasions pull out the RT173 for some early morning GS 🙂 (because, despite me struggling with it, I do think the board is absolutely beautiful!)

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4 minutes ago, jonny.a said:

 I just need to spend time re-learning my stance and riding style. I probably have a LOT of bad habits to iron out (probably the downside to learning at a young age but not continuing with an instructor).

 

3. "Carpet ride" and play around with my stance until I'm comfortable and balanced

 

As someone coming from the same situation it takes time! I'm still unlearning some bad habits. Best breakthrough was comfortable boots and a comfortable stance, just wish I had done that sooner. Once your lower body relaxes, the rest follows suit. 

 

For the playing with stance stuff... Only change ONE thing at a time. And change in small increments too. May even be beneficial to keep a log of what you change when, what the rest of your setup looks like, and of course your thoughts. I realized I went full circle once or twice trying to address another issue only after the fact. I was also only riding about 3 or 4 times a season so... 

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28 minutes ago, jonny.a said:

Something about it really appeals to me.

That attitude will take you far. There's a fair bit of adjustment and customization needed, with each experience getting better and better. Stick through the early days so you can get to the really good stuff! 

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2 hours ago, jonny.a said:

I think my plan of action now is:

1. Visit the bootfitter!

I think your Raichle 213 boots are pretty old three-buckle boots,  To me, that's fine to get the feel of hard booting but most here would probably recommend moving to a four-buckle ( or 5 depending on brand) boot for a more supportive fit.  Point is, investing in seeing a bootfitter or getting new liners might not be worth it with the boots you have now.  But as far as what boots to look for?  I'm using Raichle 225s, hardly much newer than what you have, so probably not the one to advise on improved boots.  But others here will have a lot of input. 🙂

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@Wolf they certainly are the 3 buckle ones! They were the only ones I could find in my size at the time. I did wonder whether it was worth getting new liners for them or just going with new boots.

This may be a total "newbie" question, so apologies in advance...but if I were to get some new liners, maybe fitted, can they then be used in new boots if I upgraded the boots at a later date? Or is it a one liner per boot kinda thing?

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The video @AcousticBoarder referred to doesn't do quite what they say. 

It shows how rider shape/size, stance distance and binding angles interact together to make it likely a that rider will benefit from varying amounts of lift and canting. 

For many riders body shapes, a reasonable stance width for them will mean that binding angles around 60 degrees should need front toe lift, rear heel lift, and no canting. But blanket recommendations of that angle/lift/cant combo for every rider is an oversimplification. Working through the process described in the video is designed to individualise a riders setup so it suits them. People come in different shapes and sizes, there's no setup that fits everyone.

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I feel your pain. 

That's how I felt for quite a long time. What really helped me (after getting a pair of modern, good fitting boots) is going up to the mountain on a quiet mid-week day armed with a wrench set and a willingness to experiment. I played around with stance angles, tilt and cant until I found that "magic" sport where everything suddenly felt comfortable. I then proceeded to ride more and experiment more. It's a process. 

I've found that a softer boot/binding/board combo seems to fit me better. It's easier for me to turn and control. There is this "stiffer is better" mentality sometimes and you might be tempted to start stiff and learn through it. Probably not a good idea. If I would be starting today I would stick to a soft setup until I knew better what works for me.

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2 hours ago, JRAZZ said:

 I've found that a softer boot/binding/board combo seems to fit me better. It's easier for me to turn and control. There is this "stiffer is better" mentality sometimes and you might be tempted to start stiff and learn through it. Probably not a good idea. If I would be starting today I would stick to a soft setup until I knew better what works for me.

This is good advice for someone starting out. ^

It sounds like your boots are probably pretty soft? Do they have a spring system to control the forward flex or the ability to install one? A spring system that allows you to flex your ankles easy could go a long way to making you feel more comfortable. As you improve, you can stiffen them up as needed. The harder you can push your gear, the stiffer you will want it to be, but for now, especially for all mountain riding, softer flexing gear will be better.

As I believe has been mentioned, a newer AM board could really help too for all mountain riding.

 

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I think everyone hit it out of the park, but if I can be the devil’s advocate for a moment. Whenever you get into that headspace of frustration and doubt, sorry for non pc terms, but it’s always the Indian, NOT the arrow. There are plenty of 213’s in service still, though most have replaced every buckle now twice and have a full set of tongues to swap for varying conditions. I still ride my 223’s once in a blue moon. In fact, when conditions a crap is when they come out.  While I happen to think that  Volkl is a shitsandwich on optimal days, there are plenty of guys out there on them rippin it up. 

 

HOWEVER, the custom board builders in the last 10 years...they can build you that board with everything you have in mind, matched at your weight and the conditions you experience where you ride to take a lot of that guesswork out and setting you up for success. Yes, you have to do the work and deliberate practice is the way there. But theres also something to be said for spending a lot of cash on something to prioritize your commitment. 👍

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Spending breakdown:

In your current boot, the most advanced you'd wanna go liner wise would be the heat modable ones like Intuition or Palau, remoudability in a new boot given similar inside length and width is certainly possible but not ideal. About 100 euros.

If you get newer boots, keep in mind that you'll also likely have to redo the liner, if the boot is modern and in good shape it will be worth it to go all the way with Zipfit or foam injection which can be between 400-700 euros for just the liner.

Do not go custom board until your skill is good, look for something like a SL board, bit more tiring to ride but great for learning, any F2 within the last decade should do the job fine. F2 bindings are also great, forgiving and cheap. Your volkl may not be the best board to learn on, just saying... 

Very important to get the correct technique and stance setup before you go high tier gear. 

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23 hours ago, jonny.a said:

Like I say, my priorities are: smooth freecarving & ALL DAY/ALL CONDITIONS comfort.

 

This is exactly my goal. I spend 95% of my time on small, narrow trails and need to be able to ride the whole mountain. I’m a surfer at heart and enjoy that feeling on the snow. I transitioned from soft to hard boots because I wanted to intensify my carving, not really to change my style.

There are different styles of carving, some of which are not ideal for all mountain terrain. Here in the states, what works in Colorado does not work for me in New York City (crowds, ice and width of trails). It’s important for you to decide what works for you and will help achieve your goals.

As a beginner carver, I learn best by direct tutorial. I can read how to articles and videos all day long, but when I get on the mountain it all goes out the window. For me, a couple of hours with an instructor is more beneficial than 20 hours of studying articles and video.

Dont know much about Poland (or your finances), are there any other carvers you know in the area that could point you in the direction of a competent instructor? One day of learning could give you all the insight you need to achieve your goal and equipment you need to change if needed. I went to a all mountain carving camp when I first started and it was eye opening. Don’t get me wrong...I still suck, but I ride all trails, all conditions and have lots and lots of fun!!!

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Perfect, subscribed and 1st post.  Complete newb, got a couple old alpine boards and a set of bindings this past summer.  A recent convert to AT hardboots which I love and are much better than my softies.  Ultimate goal is to have fun, learn something new and be able to somewhat keep up with a couple of skier buds who do midweek Blackcomb putting in 70-75k vert a day.

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10 hours ago, pauleleven said:

Do not go custom board until your skill is good, look for something like a SL board, bit more tiring to ride but great for learning, any F2 within the last decade should do the job fine. F2 bindings are also great, forgiving and cheap. Your volkl may not be the best board to learn on, just saying... 

Spot on. That is exactly what I'm riding now. Tiring but it will allow you to go slow (relative term - it's still a hard-boot racing board) and figure out what you are doing without punishing you too much.

 

b2.jpg.65f9aa432fcb14e7c4c533df115b5874.jpg

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