TD3 Issue

[Corey]

18 minutes ago, lowrider said:

Be careful you know what they say about these internet hookups !

Guaranteed adventure? 

[Wolf]

Mord could be a cute, young female half my age.  Well, I can hope, can't I?

[lowrider]

We're glued to the screen.

[piusthedrcarve]

Mord from Game of Thornes

 

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Mord

 

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, Wolf said:

Mord could be a cute, young female half my age.  Well, I can hope, can't I?

Be careful what you hope for. Or not.

[Wolf]

11 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Be careful what you hope for. Or not.

 

Beckmann - I like the item you posted.  How do we proceed?  PayPal gift?

[Beckmann AG]

On 3/23/2018 at 11:26 AM, Wolf said:

Beckmann - I like the item you posted.  How do we proceed?  PayPal gift?

Sorry, out of stock.

Maybe check with Skjaldmær Depot ?

[Wolf]

Well, back to appropriate content.  I'm posting several photos below showing the toe bail, lug and lug shaft so that Mord can get an idea of how these parts go together,  There are two versions of the lug and lug shaft.  The first version has a lug shaft with flats that fit into a squared-off hole in the lug.  This is meant to restrain the lug shaft from rotating.  However, I have one binding where the shaft still rotates - the shaft just mashes its way through the little flats.  So that toe bail can't be disassembled without coming up with some other way to restrain the shaft from rotating.

Version 2, which I assume is a later improvement, eliminates the flats and adds a hex socket.  The lug no longer has a squared-off hole on one side.  Now you can restrain the shaft from rotating with one Allen wrench, while using a a second Allen wrench to remove the screw.

This post shows five photos of version 1.  The next post will show version 2.

 

[Wolf]

Here's version 2.

[digger jr]

I think the fix was to dremel out a slot on the shaft and use a flat screwdriver to keep it from turning. 

[Wolf]

1 hour ago, digger jr said:

I think the fix was to dremel out a slot on the shaft and use a flat screwdriver to keep it from turning. 

Yes.  Mine is so frozen that the slot hasn't worked.  It's hard to Dremel a good square slot so the screwdriver slips.  I don't need to get it apart so I'm letting it go for now.

[Erik J]

I have also stripped the threads from the bail on my rear binding. I'm on step ins. It happened on the outer (toeside) portion of the bail.

Not sure how long it's been like that but I would assume the next step would be a broken bail if the bail keeps flexing on one side. 

I am currently looking for the shoulder lugs or a whole toe assembly. 

I have the older style shaft that likes to spin within the shoulder lugs.

If these shoulder lugs get made, count me in as a buyer. 

[khoward]

Hmmm. I’ve been missing some features on PayPal.

Wolf’s experience with the older lug shafts mirrors mine. Solved by the newer ones.

More thought on the matter. I wonder whether the failures have to do with our riding extensively at sub-zero temperatures. The linear coefficient of expansion for aluminum is 23.1 and for steel, 10.1-17.3 It’s possible that multiple cycles of temperature from -10F to 70F caused the aluminum lug threads to contract with excessive strain against the steel of the bale threads leading to weakening.  Have similar failures involved extreme temperatures? Corey probably rides at even colder temps.

Switching to a corrosion-resistant steel would correct this, but would be more difficult to machine and expensive. Interesting to see what you all come up with.

Edited March 26, 2018 by khoward

[Corey]

I've been riding in -42 C ambient conditions. 

The stresses while riding will be much greater than a loose-fitting thread expanding and contracting. I don't think this is a design problem or it would be much more common. Likely a batch issue or random bad luck with a material defect. 

[Beckmann AG]

On 3/25/2018 at 8:58 PM, khoward said:

More thought on the matter. I wonder whether the failures have to do with our riding

Ideally, a rider will bend the board by directing load through the boot soles, in which case the bails are under moderate, and fairly consistent tension.

On the other hand, if one bends the board by levering hard on the boot shells, particularly generating peak loads toward the last third of the turn, the bails will be subject to more frequent and more severe shock, leading in some cases to failure.

HInt: if your ankle rivets get looser and/or fail, you may have a broken bail in your future.

[Lurch]

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

On the other hand, if one bends the board by levering hard on the boot shells, particularly generating peak loads toward the last third of the turn, the bails will be subject to more frequent and more severe shock, leading in some cases to failure.

I fear this ink blot test has revealed my inner serial (bail) killer. Understand the concept of driving through the feet; any further advice to help speed my recovery from this malaise would be appreciated.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Lurch
Disambiguation of ambiguity

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, Lurch said:

Understand the concept of driving through the feet; any further advice to help speed my recovery from this malaise would be appreciated.

Ask yourself why you ride the way you ride, and if it 'makes sense' mechanically, or just stylistically.

And also submit some footage.

[Lurch]

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Ask yourself why you ride the way you ride

That will take some further thought... I will get back to you.

My initial feeling is that I ride my soft boots much more with my feet than my hbs. I surmise this is because the output of those micro movements is more noticeable at lower angles on wider boards. Conversely "levering against the cuffs' would be the way I describe my hb inputs.

[bigwavedave]

On 3/26/2018 at 10:55 PM, Beckmann AG said:

Ideally, a rider will bend the board by directing load through the boot soles, in which case the bails are under moderate, and fairly consistent tension.

On the other hand, if one bends the board by levering hard on the boot shells, particularly generating peak loads toward the last third of the turn, the bails will be subject to more frequent and more severe shock, leading in some cases to failure.

HInt: if your ankle rivets get looser and/or fail, you may have a broken bail in your future.

Reviving this thread as I have been going through my bindings today. I had a rear bail (front foot) break off completely last year. Didn't notice it til I went to unclip at the bottom of the hill and my foot lifted out when I tried to skate. The bail was nowhere in sight. I liked hearing Beckmann's comments about riding with the soles of your feet. I do focus on heel/toe pressure when I ride and it likely saved me from a bad crash in this case.

Today, I was trying to micro-adjust the bail length because I'm at the limits of toe or heel block adjustment when trying to achieve heel/toe balance over the board. As a stop-gap, I've been using tape on the sole blocks to micro-adjust the fit. 

Every lug I've tried was frozen. I used PB Blaster to successfully loosen a couple of them. I had to add a heat gun to get others to break free. I found a hairline fracture in one stuck lug when I turned it. Had another bail break off at the threads when I turned the lug. I suspect it was ready to go. This joint seems to be an area to keep an eye on.

I have several pairs of sidewinders, from my daughter's pair of prototypes to the last generation with 4 divots in the sole blocks. 

My first thought was to use anti-seize on the dissimilar metals to prevent seizing and corrosion. Is the consensus to use thread lock instead to prevent metal stress? Might that also help with preventing the dissimilar metal thing?

I should ask Walker what he thinks, as I'm ordering some parts.

[Lurch]

I use plumbers thread tape on the bail to stop water wicking down the threads and accumulating inside the lug. No doubt threadlock would do the same, but you can still easily adjust a taped bail if need be.

[Corey]

In my professional life, we find that never-seize and/or grease washes out in vehicle underbody conditions, but simple Loctite 243 sets and stays.

Very different application than a snowboard, but it wasn't immediately intuitive. 

It might be hard to break a lug free as it's a pretty big thread in that small lug, maybe the light-duty green (222? can't remember) would be more reasonable. 

[Corey]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

I use plumbers thread tape on the bail to stop water wicking down the threads and accumulating inside the lug. No doubt threadlock would do the same, but you can still easily adjust a taped bail if need be.

This is a good idea. That tape is intended to fill gaps in tapered pipe thread. It will help a bit in straight threads. 

The industrial thread sealer is Loctite PST (567, I think) that comes out of the tube like sticky caulking, it seals better than the tape. But it's hella messy until it sets! 

[johnasmo]

Every bail I've broke had a seized lug after the fact.  So now when I inspect my bindings (roughly annually), I retire any that don't rotate freely. Haven't experienced a failure since.  I take it as a sign that the bail is bent and a step closer to metal fatigue.

[bigwavedave]

On 3/18/2018 at 6:30 PM, lowrider said:

I had one fail  but it was the threaded bale that broke at the root of the last Thread .   

 

On 3/18/2018 at 6:32 PM, lonbordin said:

That's where all of mine have broken...

Same here. The one that failed while riding broke off completely leaving the threaded ends in the lugs. Since then I've had several bails snap off at the top of the threads while attempting to remove frozen lugs. Sometimes it didn't take much force to snap it off, which makes me think there is metal fatigue where the threads end.

I only have one pair of SW that I bought new, the rest were picked up used. (and maybe abused?) The lugs were not frozen on the "new" ones when I took them apart.

[teach]

6 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

 

Same here. The one that failed while riding broke off completely leaving the threaded ends in the lugs. Since then I've had several bails snap off at the top of the threads while attempting to remove frozen lugs. Sometimes it didn't take much force to snap it off, which makes me think there is metal fatigue where the threads end.

I only have one pair of SW that I bought new, the rest were picked up used. (and maybe abused?) The lugs were not frozen on the "new" ones when I took them apart.

I've had one break just as you you describe, while trying to remove the lug from the bail. That was on a new-to-me, used set of Sidewinders. I've had two bails deform the lugs so badly that they just slipped out while riding, of course bending in the process. Also on Sidewinders. At least one of those was the result of using yellow e-pads while being well over the weight limit Fin (later) suggested. I think it's important not to allow hard bottoming-out and I suggested a stiffer e-pad for us heavier riders, but that was around when the business was changing hands.

A number of people have suggested rolled rather than cut threads on the bails, like bicycle spokes. Along the same lines, I wonder if brass lugs rather than aluminum would increase durability?

I have not ridden SW much in the last several years (but a lot in the last month) and haven't had bail breakage with regular TD3. I do replace lugs from time to time, but it's gotten rather costly. Probably time to take everything apart and inspect...