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rjnakata

UPZ boot centering marks?

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I'm trying to get my UPZ boots (M26.0) centered over the bindings.  Since the heel is a bit distorted the center is not obvious to me.

Q: are the marks shown in the photos centering marks?  They seem close enough, but feel a bit forward of center...not sure.

Would someone in the know verify?  If they are not, what reference points do you use?!

Thanks. 

 

 

WP_20170212_17_48_16_Pro.jpg

WP_20170212_17_48_36_Pro.jpg

Edited by rjnakata

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Assuming you're after geometric center of your foot inside the shell:

Print a copy of that photo, as close to full size as possible. Mark the photo 4-5mm inboard from the outermost visible curves of the boot toe, and boot heel. (This allows for shell thickness.) Then find the half distance and see where that mark lies in relation to the molded mark noted with white and black ovals. That should get you within 2-3mm.

In the event you have some scaling trickery in your photo editing software, skip the printing part.

If you want 'functional' center, that's a little more complicated. 

How goes the riding experiment?

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Those are the 'center marks'. My guess is that since the heel section is larger, it looks like the mark is too far forward, but my recollection is that the toe inner (shell thickness) is pushed back a bit? Which might refer to E.B.'s '2-3mm' zone, putting the actual center a very slight bit aft of the mold-marks? (Beckmann, please correct me if I'm off with this; it's been awhile since tinkering with these; and, I never owned any)...

 

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^ A brief measure of the photo provided, using the back of an envelope as a measuring tool suggests that mold line doesn't really correspond to anything other than 'season to taste'. 

The 2-3mm allowance for error seems reasonable for an internet guess, and partially accounts for the stylistic 'beak' at the boot toe, which doesn't represent the internal contour.

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thanks guys,

I have an email into Dan Yoja with the same inquiry.  When measuring the actual boot exterior (boot standing up, soles flat on the floor, measured using right angle square) I get this:

Whether this is the actual foot center I don't know.  The reason I'm asking about this whole thing is that it seems more accurate to center the boot to the binding rather than the boot to the board edges.  If the boot is centered on the binding, it will be centered on the board at any binding angle (no?).

Additionally the larger reason I'm asking is that if this "mark" is indeed the center and is then it is centered on the binding the intec receiver moves so far forward as to max out the binding bias range of some bindings and is not even possible to achieve it with others...

 

 

WP_20170212_17_48_16_Pro.jpg

Edited by rjnakata
grammer
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1 hour ago, lonbordin said:

I center my UPZs by the leading edge of the toe and the rearmost part of the heel to the edge of the board I'm riding.

I get it...the Fuego's are squaring devices...it took me a while to see what they were doing!

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2 hours ago, rjnakata said:

I get it...the Fuego's are squaring devices...it took me a while to see what they were doing!

They were just sitting there, tempting you.:ices_ange

Yes, one big drawback to the UPZs is they nearly always max out or go beyond available binding bias...

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I suspect that those center marks refer to the DIN toe/heel pieces. I.e. if you used the UPZ as a ski boot, you would center it in the binding according to the mark. Not sure how useful those marks are for snowboarding.

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I never manage to set up that center line on center of the binding. If I did that I would end up with front toe bail max to the front while the rear bail somewhere in the middle. 

On DrKimcarving blog Kim mentions that he uses bindings of SG front bail in L position while back bail in S positon to allow for centering. (http://m.blog.naver.com/kimcarving/220930777759 I know it is in korean but you can use translate.google.com)

I have UPZ Rc10 shell 312mm and F2 Race M-size/ SG bindings in small size. I ride 60/55 degrees - If I put my toes of rear leg over the frontside edge - I end up with approximately 1 cm off center towards heel side. On the front foot even more, due to the fact that I want my heel directly over the edge.

 

I dont know if this ok to do, but I have been riding comfortably like this

 

Edited by slapos

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17 hours ago, lonbordin said:

I center my UPZs by the leading edge of the toe and the rearmost part of the heel to the edge of the board I'm riding.

Fuego-test.jpg

Do this. Any other method is a lot of work to accomplish the same thing. 

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2 minutes ago, corey_dyck said:

Do this. Any other method is a lot of work to accomplish the same thing. 

But Fuego will yield an inferior result. I find that using Boodle's gin gives me a loopy, surfy style that feels better than it looks.

1113.jpg

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Well, Dan Yoja wrote this to me in regard to the marks I circled in post #1

"yes you are correct, they are center marks."

"The marks are put on the boots because the boot can be used as a ski boot and all ski boots and skis have center markings to center the boot to the ski. For snowboarding you can use the marks to center the boot to the binding IF the binding is properly set up.  If the the binding is to(o) far forward or back with the toe or heel piece then the boot isn't going to be centered to the binding or on the board.  Ski bindings have standard centering.  Snowboard binding do not, so it all has to be measured and eyeballed....Also the center of your foot depends on where your foot actual(ly) sits in the boot.  If your boot is centered, the foot should be centered but depends on exactly how the foot fits the boot."

 

I'm not versed in ski boot centering, but those marks sure are close to the geometric center of the boot.  If my outer shell measurements are correct (post #6) the heel would have to move 1/4" further toward the toe to center of the boot...this would eliminate the use of all the major bindings still in production (for size M26).  Notice how far forward the toe and heel blocks are on this centered binding plate...

Using the "wine box method" the boot needs to bias toward the toe another 1/4" or so...darn tucked in UPZ heel!

So for now I'll assume the marks are good for center.

.

 

WP_20170214_19_40_01_Pro.jpg

Edited by rjnakata

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A pair of DIN heels for the UPZs came with a recent purchase. They add 1 cm to overall length. So math says move the center mark back towards the heel .5 cm to be centered.

spacer.png

case closed.

BTW- This means with the 312 UPZ shell for F2 titanium, F2 RS carve, and Bomber TD3 SWS (bail) you will need to position the heel sled as far forward as possible.

Edited by lonbordin

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On 2/12/2017 at 11:00 PM, Aracan said:

I suspect that those center marks refer to the DIN toe/heel pieces. I.e. if you used the UPZ as a ski boot, you would center it in the binding according to the mark. Not sure how useful those marks are for snowboarding.

I think this may be correct. 
I don’t see how you could position UPZs, for snowboarding, other than to position the toes and heels as close to as possible to the board edges, with no overhang, for each boot size and angle. 
I mean, is there any reason to pay any attention to that centering line on the boot shell for snowboarding? If there is, maybe I’m in for a whole new and better feel for carving after I get my UPZs centered over my bindings. I can only hope for some new revelation and explanation for my nearly hopeless progress in burying my edge, getting my knees close to the snow and linking up  zero skid turns. 

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50 minutes ago, 1xsculler said:

I think this may be correct. 
I don’t see how you could position UPZs, for snowboarding, other than to position the toes and heels as close to as possible to the board edges, with no overhang, for each boot size and angle. 
I mean, is there any reason to pay any attention to that centering line on the boot shell for snowboarding? If there is, maybe I’m in for a whole new and better feel for carving after I get my UPZs centered over my bindings. I can only hope for some new revelation and explanation for my nearly hopeless progress in burying my edge, getting my knees close to the snow and linking up  zero skid turns. 

If you want to center your UPZs the center mark for snowboarding is .5 cm from the mark towards the heel. Use a sharpie. Centered via Fuego is acceptable as well. 

This is really the last 40% masquerading as the last 5%...

Good luck.

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18 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

If you want to center your UPZs the center mark for snowboarding is .5 cm from the mark towards the heel.

Great stuff! Is this info from UPZ...self calculation? I've never heard that but now I am aware... [Edit - haha answered my own question!  haha]

18 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

This is really the last 40% masquerading as the last 5%...

😀

Edited by rjnakata
haha

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1 minute ago, rjnakata said:

Great stuff! Is this info from UPZ...self calculation? I've never heard that but now I am aware...

The boot mark is molded from UPZ. UPZ reps have confirmed that this mark is for DIN centering (ski binding centering). I measured the extra distance added by the DIN heel, 1cm (see prior photo for source).

1 cm / 2 = .5 cm

So .5 cm towards the heel is the UPZ center of the shell for snowboarding.

Easy peasey...

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4 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

The boot mark is molded from UPZ. UPZ reps have confirmed that this mark is for DIN centering (ski binding centering). I measured the extra distance added by the DIN heel, 1cm (see prior photo for source).

Interesting.  Thanks for that...that photo is mine!   (I forgot I posted it)

 

5 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

So .5 cm towards the heel is the UPZ center of the shell for snowboarding.

👍

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1 hour ago, rjnakata said:

Interesting.  Thanks for that...that photo is mine!   (I forgot I posted it)

 

👍

Is there any importance to this? Seriously, just asking. 

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The goal is toes and heels close to edges, so I look at the toes and heels and ignore other markings on the boots. 

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On 2/8/2020 at 8:39 PM, Corey said:

The goal is toes and heels close to edges....

Making toe/heel evenly close to their adjacent edges with UPZ M26 or below is easier said than done... especially with a small radius board (I'm talking about with using the "fuego" method).  I'm not finding any bindings - Bomber, F2, SG, Catek that can do this adequately with a turny board (especially the front binding).

The center mark lets me know how biased the boot is to the binding.  This bias (theoretically) changes from board to board (with differing sidecuts)

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10 hours ago, rjnakata said:

Making toe/heel evenly close to their adjacent edges with UPZ M26 or below is easier said than done... especially with a small radius board (I'm talking about with using the "fuego" method).  I'm not finding any bindings - Bomber, F2, SG, Catek that can do this adequately with a turny board (especially the front binding).

Agreed! I can't get my M28 UPZ boot far enough forward on TD3 sidewinders. I can imagine how bad it would be with M26s!

If you're mechanically-limited, what's the point of measuring? I get being curious, but what does it matter if the number is X cm? 

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15 hours ago, Corey said:

Agreed! I can't get my M28 UPZ boot far enough forward on TD3 sidewinders. I can imagine how bad it would be with M26s!

Hey but it doesn't seem to affect your riding!!

I thought for sure M28 would work with TD3SW.  That implies a binding redesign is needed unless one is going to eliminate UPZ and MS.  How about a non symmetrical base plate...

15 hours ago, Corey said:

If you're mechanically-limited, what's the point of measuring? I get being curious, but what does it matter if the number is X cm? 

Granted, there is not a lot of utility.  It does illustrate how far back the boot is with the boot maxed forward on the various bindings.   I can compare how limited each binding is.   

Also: is boot edge aligning only to relieve boot-out or is there an aspect related to the mechanics of the foot?...why would Gilmore bias be a thing?  Would there be advantage for the center of the foot directly over the center of the board? if so the boot center is relevant.  (sounds like a topic for Beckman). -I could be overthinking this...

16 hours ago, Corey said:

If you're mechanically-limited,..

My next step: efforts to become "un-mechanically limited" with some time in the shop.

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On 2/14/2020 at 1:16 AM, rjnakata said:

Also: is boot edge aligning only to relieve boot-out or is there an aspect related to the mechanics of the foot?...why would Gilmore bias be a thing?  Would there be advantage for the center of the foot directly over the center of the board? if so the boot center is relevant.  (sounds like a topic for Beckman). -I could be overthinking this...

There was another thread recently that referenced (in yet another older thread; might have been one of yours?)some of the hows and whys of offset.

In short:

As a friend pointed out recently: A snowboard is a violin, not a piano.

The ball of the foot and the contact center of the heel bone are the primary points from which you can direct inputs to the board. It follows then that moving those points one way or the other will change the nature of the command signal sent to the board, as well as the return response quantifying what took place as a result of that input.

Consider that some feet have proportionally longer arches, and some have proportionally longer toes. In each case, centering the boot shell geometrically will result in sub-optimal signal routing.

if the board 'sees' pressure/pressure distribution as the primary control input, and if the board can't discern between plantar foot pressure and shell leverage as a source of pressure, then offset can have a significant influence on how the board handles, and how a rider can manipulate that board.

For the average novice on softies, on low-end sloppy equipment, 1 cm of toe/heel offset can be a game changer.

 Given that hard shell boots and bindings are much more responsive, it follows that changes in offset of much smaller increments in hardboots can be revelatory.

 

On 2/13/2020 at 8:59 AM, Corey said:

If you're mechanically-limited, what's the point of measuring? I get being curious, but what does it matter if the number is X cm? 

Some riders reach a certain point of accomplishment, find bliss, and desire no further exploration.

Others realize that there is always more over the horizon. The latter class can take a linear measure, extrapolate effect based on past experience and theory, and make the informed decision to find a boot/binding configuration better suited to their geometric needs and athletic goals.

 

 

 

 

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