rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) I had a great day out today. Conditions were groomed packed powder, softening and chopping at the morning progressed. Toesides were rock solid but some of my heelsides were a bit shaky and I could use your advice. After initiating heelside (early) the tip wiggles side-to-side near the apex and bottom of the turn (highest speed). It usually happened when my speed was up (but never on the toeside) It's reflected in the track photo below. Is it a weight distribution thing, angulation, commitment, setup? (it's definitely NOT the board) Setup: UPZ MP26.0, 19-3/4" stance centered on board [edit: 30" pants leg inseam] TD3 SI: 60/57, 3 degrees front toe lift (no cant), 3 degrees rear heel lift (no cant) Front foot (goofy) biased about 1/8"-1/4" closer to heel side edge Rear foot biased about 1/8"-1/4" closer to toe side edge. Thanks, I'm heading out this Saturday (same conditions) and I'll put your advice into practice... Edited February 3, 2017 by rjnakata added inseam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 sometimes a Variable sidecut board will do this when you over rotate or induce a twist in the board. Usually it occurs when a hard booter tries to ride a soft boot board at low angles. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 Is this a new situation, or has it been around for awhile? 1. Equalize your offset. 2. Swap the front 6 for a 3. 2a. What Sean said about twist. Sidecut type notwithstanding, don't do that. 3. If 2a, find the heelside edge under your rear heel before the front heel. This will probably bring you in 'even'. But, from the look of things, probably #1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) I've experienced the same thing, possibly due to my 'usual' relatively low binding angles (I ride often, in hardboots, in the 40's-low 50's), as with those angles I not only affect fore-aft pressures, but also can put toe-heel moves into play, and I often 'twist' my boards a good deal.The pressure variance of being 'hard on edge' on one or the other foot can make for some interesting arc segments! This is likely Exactly why I dislike the Lib-Tech/Gnu (Magna Trac) edge profile so much now; I feel every dang 'wiggle' along the edge, and it feels very insecure and unpredictable. My 'cadence' , typically on groomed snow, is to tilt onto edge light and early, then pressure the front foot, two-count, pressure Both feet for three-count as I'm heading down the fall-line, and finish with a light front foot, pressure on edge at the rear foot, for maybe a two-count as I cross or move a bit up the fall-line. And, yup, this doesn't do you many favors if you're on a big-'ol fixed plate, because you'll only auger the nose, then over-bend the tail... But, on a board that bends, and grips, it works fairly well. Edited February 3, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said: Is this a new situation, or has it been around for awhile? [been around for a while with different boards, less today] 1. Equalize your offset. [first adjustment...I did the bias that way because when I ride longboard (skateboard) this is the natural foot bias on the deck] 2. Swap the front 6 for a 3. [second adjustment] 2a. What Sean said about twist. Sidecut type notwithstanding, don't do that. [not sure if 'm over rotating, but I doubt it] 3. If 2a, find the heelside edge under your rear heel before the front heel. This will probably bring you in 'even'. [As I initiate the turn weight evenly...not forward correct?] But, from the look of things, probably #1. Edited February 3, 2017 by rjnakata 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 Gotta luv BOL: Three of the best mind in carving responding to my technique question in an hour! Thanks all! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 A quick note on angled lift in this; I ride flat up front, only using a slight toe lift when I get past 55* up front. This is used to keep my knee from 'overloading' the nose when I shift my hip forward into a heel turn. Having a moment of 'stiffness' in the heel turn is not unusual, as you are using larger, slow-twitch muscle of the upper-leg. hip, and mid-torso, and any of these can balk at moving quickly enough to recover from a mis-timed move. Hence, when needing a bit more 'edge' and a cleaner line, I use 'lifting the toes' to include some 'fine motor' tilt to the equation. Your 'line' in the snow, there, was, IMHO, done a tad late, with a low edge angle and too soft a touch, then got hammered on, then bounced, then carved roughly again. Your muscles didn't bounce as quick as the board did, but, you also didn't 'set' the edge in time to begin with (look just uphill of the lift tower;shallow edging!). Start, softer, lower, but with a deeper bank into the edge. Then pull that rear-foot toe UP mid-turn. Tracks like that, btw, are great tools if you can scout them from the lift on the way back uphill. Better, too, is that you can 'replay' just how that turn felt, and compare the resulting imprint. I use that reference often when the conditions allow, but, then, I had the luxury of having a mid-week hill on a 'set run' at my disposal for 20 years or so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) PSR: Your post reminded me and maybe this is another topic, or maybe it's related: My front foot toes seemed more curled than normal while the rear foot toes remain flat, (I do have custom footbeds). Edited February 3, 2017 by rjnakata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, rjnakata said: 10 hours ago, Beckmann AG said: Is this a new situation, or has it been around for awhile? [been around for a while with different boards, less today] 1. Equalize your offset. [first adjustment...I did the bias that way because when I ride longboard (skateboard) this is the natural foot bias on the deck] Understandable, but a snowboard is not the same as skate deck. While there are some similarities between the activities, the respective platforms have so little DNA in common, they could marry and nobody would fear for the viability of the offspring. Offset can be used to tune response, usually in terms of leverage ratio, but also in terms of contact pressure along the length of the board. For a rider not afflicted with Hellboy Syndrome® (where one limb is normal and the other is drastically outsized. I've seen photos.) riding with split offset is like driving around with one under-inflated front tire. It pulls, you tug, and it's manageable at low speed. Go fast enough on the 'right' surface, and sooner or later you overcompensate, and the back of the car no longer follows the front. So, if the front half of the board is more responsive than the back half, based on a fixed variable, you can expect to see some deviation in line, all other factors being 'equal'. 2. Swap the front 6 for a 3. [second adjustment] The UPZed has 1.375 pantloads of ramp. Baseline net should be around 3, and odds are good you're well above that. Probably not the main cause, but worth checking. 2a. What Sean said about twist. Sidecut type notwithstanding, don't do that. [not sure if 'm over rotating, but I doubt it] Should have been more specific. I was referring to the possibility of twisting the deck, not the rotation. My bad. 3. If 2a, find the heelside edge under your rear heel before the front heel. This will probably bring you in 'even'. [As I initiate the turn weight evenly...not forward correct?] Yes. Dissimilar inputs generate uneven outputs. But, from the look of things, probably #1. Edited February 3, 2017 by Beckmann AG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 9 hours ago, rjnakata said: PSR: Your post reminded me and maybe this is another topic, or maybe it's related: My front foot toes seemed more curled than normal while the rear foot toes remain flat, (I do have custom footbeds). Ow. Do you use a thinner sock on the front foot, then? Have you looked to see if the front footbed can be thinned a lil' bit under the toes? Can you create a bit more toebox volume with the liner? Now, I'm out of the bootfitting game by a good decade, so, the other Erik is whom to discuss this with, IMHO. Be it as it may, I could see how that fit issue could lead to a bunch of little oddities in your riding, but, could also be a non-issue.. Depends on your comfort level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 10 hours ago, rjnakata said: My front foot toes seemed more curled than normal while the rear foot toes remain flat Curled as in constricted by the boot, or curled as in reflexively clenched? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said: Curled as in constricted by the boot, or curled as in reflexively clenched? Clenched, like a fist..."toest" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 That's indicative of that foot trying to resolve some form of instability. Usually, that means the boot is too large, though probably not in this case. Run through the checklist, see if anything changes, and report back with the findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said: That's indicative of that foot trying to resolve some form of instability. Boot is not too large...I think you nailed it...will report back. Edited February 3, 2017 by rjnakata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) I'd sometimes start to curl the toes, if I felt looseness in the heel area of the boot. Edited February 3, 2017 by BlueB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 Looking at the pic, it looks like too much pressure on the nose in the 2nd part of the turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 minute ago, BlueB said: Looking at the pic, it looks like too much pressure on the nose in the 2nd part of the turn. Funny, I look at the Pic and see the opposite, not enough pressure, allowing the board edge to wander, flutter... to much pressure, should leave a deeper Track ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 45 minutes ago, softbootsurfer said: Funny, I look at the Pic and see the opposite, not enough pressure, allowing the board edge to wander, flutter... to much pressure, should leave a deeper Track ? Track depth would be result of firmness of the surface and total amount of pressure along entire edge. I think there might be too much, compared to the pressure he's got on the rest of the edge, as the nose seems to want to go tighter line then the rest, but can not, so it skips back to the line that the rest of the board is carving. It also could be that he's applying that pressure down the slope (something to do with curling front toes?), instead into the edge and into the direction of travel. Anyways, Rj, try playing with pressure / weight distribution through the turn, one way or another, and see if it solves the problem... Besides paying the attention to the above, I'd also try actively lifting those toes, as well as steering the front knee to the inside of the turn and down to the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 there is no track depth in his photo, only a very thin line that meanders after the apex... the reason it doesn't take a tighter line, is because there is not enough angulation or pressure, to much pressure would load the front enough to stop it from flutter right? yes, setting a motion in play and not following through...at least this is what happens to me when I become lax and don't stay on it...there is another recent Heelside thread with a video of a rider doing the same thing...crushing it Toeside and wandering Heelside...not trying to be argumentative B just relating my experience, with this...when I am aggro on both Toe and Heel, it never happens, even on my rockered stick, but let up on a turn rather than finish and it happens...actually, there are so many possibilities here, that only a video would show what happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted February 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 hours ago, BlueB said: Anyways, Rj, try playing with pressure / weight distribution through the turn, one way or another, and see if it solves the problem... Besides paying the attention to the above, I'd also try actively lifting those toes, as well as steering the front knee to the inside of the turn and down to the snow. I hear weight back/forward/middle at turn initiation.. I'll check them all out...thanks 1 hour ago, softbootsurfer said: yes, setting a motion in play and not following through...at least this is what happens to me when I become lax and don't stay on it...there is another recent Heelside thread with a video of a rider doing the same thing...crushing it Toeside and wandering Heelside... ...when I am aggro on both Toe and Heel, it never happens, even on my rockered stick, but let up on a turn rather than finish and it happens...actually, there are so many possibilities here, that only a video would show what happened... I think "commitment" or "aggo" may be part of the issue. There's a fair amount of straight-liners on my local runs and heelside feels "blinder" than toeside. I do often feel more timid turning in on heelside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, rjnakata said: ...I think "commitment" or "aggo" may be part of the issue. There's a fair amount of straight-liners on my local runs and heelside feels "blinder" than toeside. I do often feel more timid turning in on heelside. Loud music helps. For heelside turns, you just have to be completely aware of what's around you. Look back up the slope first, it's not that hard to do it, and you can do it on the other side (eg if you're regular, finish a toeside turn and look up the hill, then transition over and put in a big heelside because you know there's nothing there. And don't stop looking where you're going, which probably helps your turn too. It's kind of like driving. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger jr Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 That Wigglesworth know his wiggles:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 5 hours ago, softbootsurfer said: ...not trying to be argumentative B just relating my experience, with this... Not at all, we are all in here to help. You offered your perspective, I offered mine, just as many other posters. It's up to OP now to go and try various approaches and hopefully find a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Consume 187.5 ml of wine and go out and try it again. I find an alcohol induced attitude adjustment does wonders and causes me to let everything hang out just a little bit more than I normally would. Am I alone here? Last year when I was a total novice never having been on a board, except 10 years ago for part of a season trying to carve, a glass of wine made it impossible for me to even stay on my board at all. This season after twenty days (8:45 to 11:15 = about fifteen runs, up down, up down, go home) of working on my carve the wine does wonders as it used to after I had sixty years of skiing under my belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) Wait, that's a heelside toward a pole, I know I wouldn't drop my butt and be comfortable, let's see tracks out in the open, and really, tracks, the turn wasn't carved properly, let's see footage of the person, and let's discuss the setup. Edited February 4, 2017 by ursle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.