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NASTAR 2016-2017


Jack M

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Finally got around to posting some shots of the grandsons in action.

The youngest had just turned five and won his age group in both boarding and skiing.

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Six year old grandson took 2nd in skiing

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The nine year old took 2nd.  Here's a composite shot of him and me.  The kid is racing on twin tips!  I need to get him some race skis.

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Hope to see many of you at Squaw Valley in 2018!

 

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  • 7 months later...
On 1/28/2017 at 3:00 PM, lonbordin said:

I was trying to suggest a way to even the start on a flat course. 

We, of course, pound ours into the dirt. :smashfrea

It occurs to me that on a flat start where they don't have posts, one could borrow a set of ski poles and even use them to push off two or three times before the first gate.  Then either discard them (making sure you have a friend or starter willing to pull them off the course for you before the next competitor starts!) or just carry them through the finish.   I can't see how this would violate any rules, and it might help even the playing field on some courses.

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On 1/31/2018 at 2:54 PM, darko714 said:

It occurs to me that on a flat start where they don't have posts, one could borrow a set of ski poles and even use them to push off two or three times before the first gate.  Then either discard them (making sure you have a friend or starter willing to pull them off the course for you before the next competitor starts!) or just carry them through the finish.   I can't see how this would violate any rules, and it might help even the playing field on some courses.

That would be nice but if you were racing on a team in a weekly series it would be cheating.  Team points are calculated with a hefty handicap for snowboarders specifically because we don't have poles and cannot skate.

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I don't understand the results.  On your last race you had a time of 32.93 on the blue course with a handicap of 20.98 that was a platinum result and 36.89/43.21 for silver.  I don't understand how that relates to the platinum handicap of 0-12.99 or the silver handicap of 19-33.99 (or 24-38.99 if it was slalom, not stated anywhere what type of race it was).  Why are the platinum/gold/etc handicaps for the 2nd place guy lower than yours?

The pacer got 28.29/29.89 with a handicap of 9.79 so I assume the base times were 18.5 and 20.1?

I guess ELI5 NASTAR.

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35 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I don't understand the results.  On your last race you had a time of 32.93 on the blue course with a handicap of 20.98 that was a platinum result and 36.89/43.21 for silver.  I don't understand how that relates to the platinum handicap of 0-12.99 or the silver handicap of 19-33.99

Yeah the website is not exactly straightforward.  My handicap of 20.98 on that course does not reflect the -20 point discount that snowboarders get for calculating medals and team scores.  So my final handicap would be 0.98 for the platinum.  Last night it was dumping snow (highly unusual), so the course turned into a luge track.  I got spun around in the powder on my other run, hence the silver.

35 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Why are the platinum/gold/etc handicaps for the 2nd place guy lower than yours?

He must be younger.

 

35 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

The pacer got 28.29/29.89 with a handicap of 9.79 so I assume the base times were 18.5 and 20.1?

Handicap is the percentage that you are slower than the national pacesetter (Ted Ligety).  So the "par" times last night were 25.76 on yellow and 27.22 on blue.  These are calculated from the local pacesetter's time and his handicap.  The par time is the theoretical time that Ted Ligety would get on the local course.  We have a skier in our league who raced in college and is getting handicaps less than 1. :eek:

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1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

We have a skier in our league who raced in college and is getting handicaps less than 1. :eek:

The NASTAR system isn't perfect.  A few of years ago they did the midwest pacesetting at a resort which has a very flat course, a glide course if you will.  The national pacesetter was beaten (head-to-head) by wiley locals who used their wax and course knowledge to their benefit.  NASTAR hasn't done pacesetting at that resort since.  But the course does matter.  The skiers that take this WAY more seriously know which courses/resorts can lead to low handicaps.  In the opposite they also know which courses are considered the most difficult.  Paoli Peaks, believe it or not, has been called out in the NASTAR forums more than once as being the toughest NASTAR course. Can't see the finish from the start, abrupt dogleg on a knoll before the steeper finish segment (hard to turn in the air!), and the pesky coursesetter/pacemaker that really likes to add a few out of rhythm gates at the most inappropriate places all add to the difficulty. 

BUT it is a lot of fun... especially to be beaten (head-to-head) by very young skiers.  I think I have over 100 days of NASTAR races recorded, in 2013-2014 I had 151 race results.  I made a promise after the last time I got hurt I wouldn't race in soft conditions and Paoli has now limited NASTAR to run only on the weekends so I haven't got a finish in the last couple of years.  This Saturday is looking like my chance!  

Edited by lonbordin
god... I'm old.
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21 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

OK, handicaps are in percentages plus the site is inaccurate.  Now I understand why I don't understand.  Was it SL or GS?  There is no where that is stated.

Right, the NASTAR site doesn't detail that.  Last night was scheduled for SL but they ended up making it a GS because of the snow storm.  We've had one other SL so far.  9 week season.  Our team should win the season, we have 3 good alpine snowboarders, a good telemarker, the <1 handicap guy, and a good female.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 10 months later...
On 2/8/2018 at 1:21 PM, lonbordin said:

The NASTAR system isn't perfect.  A few of years ago they did the midwest pacesetting at a resort which has a very flat course, a glide course if you will.  The national pacesetter was beaten (head-to-head) by wiley locals who used their wax and course knowledge to their benefit.  NASTAR hasn't done pacesetting at that resort since.  But the course does matter.  The skiers that take this WAY more seriously know which courses/resorts can lead to low handicaps.  In the opposite they also know which courses are considered the most difficult.  Paoli Peaks, believe it or not, has been called out in the NASTAR forums more than once as being the toughest NASTAR course. Can't see the finish from the start, abrupt dogleg on a knoll before the steeper finish segment (hard to turn in the air!), and the pesky coursesetter/pacemaker that really likes to add a few out of rhythm gates at the most inappropriate places all add to the difficulty. 

BUT it is a lot of fun... especially to be beaten (head-to-head) by very young skiers.  I think I have over 100 days of NASTAR races recorded, in 2013-2014 I had 151 race results.  I made a promise after the last time I got hurt I wouldn't race in soft conditions and Paoli has now limited NASTAR to run only on the weekends so I haven't got a finish in the last couple of years.  This Saturday is looking like my chance!  

Nastar.

I'm near Okemo in Vt, after 20 years snowboarding because of a damaged hip (was a skier) got a new hip in October, and am looking at going to Okemo and getting a handicap, I'm a 7 on a snowboard, but, all my data was deleted from the Nastar site.

(Thanks Pat)

So, I'm looking at the results from yesterday, the pacesetter claimed a handicap of 40 and made the course a 17 second (par) course, problem is the pacesetter is actually a 18.5 handicap, which is also 5 or 6 points higher than his actual times, my point is, why go to okemo when the pacesetter is sandbagging 5 to 25 handicap points before you get on the course, well, There used to be lots or alpine snowboard racers going to Okemo, now there are none.

So here I sit, deciding, do I go and take my chance that the pacesetter is going to claim a 40 handicap or an 18 handicap, on a super crowded Sunday, I want to go race but I don't want to waste my time being cheated out of anywhere from 5 to 25 handicap points.

I assume the others that have raced at Okemo but no longer bother feel the same.

20 years ago the last day I skied, the handicapper was John Neal, an honest to god fast guy with a 5 handicap, I beat him, got a 4, it was fun and honest, now it's BS.

 

Edited by ursle
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9 hours ago, ursle said:

Nastar.

I'm near Okemo in Vt, after 20 years snowboarding because of a damaged hip (was a skier) got a new hip in October, and am looking at going to Okemo and getting a handicap, I'm a 7 on a snowboard, but, all my data was deleted from the Nastar site.

(Thanks Pat)

So, I'm looking at the results from yesterday, the pacesetter claimed a handicap of 40 and made the course a 17 second (par) course, problem is the pacesetter is actually a 18.5 handicap, which is also 5 or 6 points higher than his actual times, my point is, why go to okemo when the pacesetter is sandbagging 5 to 25 handicap points before you get on the course, well, There used to be lots or alpine snowboard racers going to Okemo, now there are none.

So here I sit, deciding, do I go and take my chance that the pacesetter is going to claim a 40 handicap or an 18 handicap, on a super crowded Sunday, I want to go race but I don't want to waste my time being cheated out of anywhere from 5 to 25 handicap points.

I assume the others that have raced at Okemo but no longer bother feel the same.

20 years ago the last day I skied, the handicapper was John Neal, an honest to god fast guy with a 5 handicap, I beat him, got a 4, it was fun and honest, now it's BS.

 

Yeah... We have a few people that are qualified pacesetters... It can really vary.  I'd go... Better than hip surgery!

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9 hours ago, ursle said:

Nastar.

So, I'm looking at the results from yesterday, the pacesetter claimed a handicap of 40 and made the course a 17 second (par) course, problem is the pacesetter is actually a 18.5 handicap, which is also 5 or 6 points higher than his actual times, my point is, why go to okemo when the pacesetter is sandbagging 5 to 25 handicap points before you get on the course, well, and the course isn't set by a carver, it's never a course set by someone that enjoys carving, rather by someone that enjoys making others have a terrible handicap, There used to be lots or alpine snowboard racers going to Okemo, now there are none.

Love to hear back from the Okemo Pacesetter (pat), but expect crickets.

This isn't a personal attack, just a public scolding.

The reason some pacesetters have two different handicaps is because one is for a GS course and the other is for a SL course.  On 2/2/19 (the day you mentioned) Pat was the SL pacesetter on the Yellow course (Pat had a SL handicap of 40.99) and Ken Kimmerle was the GS pacesetter on the Blue course (Ken had a GS handicap of 23.00).  If you did not like Pat's handicap then you could have raced on the Blue course.  Another example of this is at http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=raceresults&race=146129&year=2019   On that day the Okemo pacesetter was James Blount who had a 16.96 GS handicap on the Blue course and a 39.53 SL handicap on the Yellow course.

Also, if you go to NASTAR Nationals and make it to the Race of Champions and expect to race on an easy carving course then you'll be very disappointed.  I met several racers at Nationals who thought they were really fast (they had low handicaps going into Nationals), however they found out that their low handicaps didn't help them prepare for a challenging course.

Edited by noschoolrider
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14 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

The reason some pacesetters have two different handicaps is because one is for a GS course and the other is for a SL course.  On 2/2/19 (the day you mentioned) Pat was the SL pacesetter on the Yellow course (Pat had a SL handicap of 40.99) and Ken Kimmerle was the GS pacesetter on the Blue course (Ken had a GS handicap of 23.00).  If you did not like Pat's handicap then you could have raced on the Blue course.  Another example of this is at http://skiracing.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=raceresults&race=146129&year=2019   On that day the Okemo pacesetter was James Blount who had a 16.96 GS handicap on the Blue course and a 39.53 SL handicap on the Yellow course.

Also, if you go to NASTAR Nationals and make it to the Race of Champions and expect to race on an easy carving course then you'll be very disappointed.  I met several racers at Nationals who thought they were really fast (they had low handicaps going into Nationals), however they found out that their low handicaps didn't help them prepare for a challenging course.

You make a good point.

 

Let me point out that the arena is small for one course and it's got two courses set.

The average par times for the arena is 22.5 seconds(Okemo post's that number on the site), saturday when pat used a 41 handicap...he lowered the par for that course to 17.(if the course were being run by a pacesetter that was honestly handicapped, the average par time would have been involved, not a par time 5.5 seconds faster.)

 

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10 hours ago, ursle said:

Let me point out that the arena is small for one course and it's got two courses set.

Are you saying the arena/courses don't comply with NASTAR's requirements, or are you saying they don't meet your desires?

10 hours ago, ursle said:

The average par times for the arena is 22.5 seconds(Okemo post's that number on the site)

That's just an average.  When my local resort had the NASTAR program the average par time was 24.25 however there were several days when the par times were below 18 (more than 6 seconds faster than the average par time).

10 hours ago, ursle said:

saturday when pat used a 41 handicap...he lowered the par for that course to 17

That's the pacesetter's Slalom handicap and it was applied to a Slalom course.

10 hours ago, ursle said:

if the course were being run by a pacesetter that was honestly handicapped, the average par time would have been involved, not a par time 5.5 seconds faster

On the page I linked to (for Okemo on Jan 12th, 2019) the par time for the Blue (Giant Slalom) course was 18.58 and the par time for the Yellow (Slalom) course was 16.64The pacesetter for both courses was James Blount.  Are you also going to declare that James is not honestly handicapped?

As lonbordin said, "The NASTAR system isn't perfect" and an example of this can be seen on the page for the Overall Snowboard Male Ranking (2017-18 Season).  On that page it shows Olympic snowboarder Mike Trapp ranked at 21.  Do you really think all (or any) of the 20 people ranked above Mike Trapp are faster than him?

I know you didn't ask for it, however in my professional opinion, it will be more rewarding to focus on being the best (fastest) racer you can be on a variety of courses, instead of focusing on getting the lowest handicap on easy (or what you feel are "honestly handicapped") courses.

Edited by noschoolrider
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HI folks - Just spotted this.  As was correctly mentioned above.  I had to paceset the slalom course recently and I'm so slow in that event you can time me with a calendar.  The 40 handicap is accurate.  Jim Blount's slalom skills have improved dramatically as evidenced by his HC drop from 39 last year to 21 this year.  He did paceset the slalom course this past Sunday in a time of 26.5.  My time on that slalom course was 31.87 for a handicap of 45.79.

At the pacesetter trials at Windham Mountain last week, I earned a GS HC of 22.66, up about four points from last year.  The race was held in heavy rain and frankly I didn't do well.  Maybe I'm just slowing down.  I turned 72 last year.

I'll be racing on skis and board (not a NASTAR event) today at Okemo on the Wardance Trail in our Innkeepers Race series.  It's a fun event and I'll finish in the upper half on skis and will get my butt handed to me on the board.  There are some lightning fast snowboard racers on that course.  Winning times on both courses will be 30+ seconds.  

I haven't set a stubby course for boarders too many times this year but if you let me know we can get a few folks, I'll try to set a course on an upcoming Sunday.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry Pat, horse hockey.

When you use a 40.99 handicap on a par 22.5 course and your handicapped time changes that 22.5 par course to a 17.32 par course....

You're adding 5.22 seconds onto the times of anyone that races that course.

Which is around 25 ? nastar handicap points.

Right, you no longer set a stubbies course because no Alpine Snowboarders want to deal with skewed times. it's a pity because there are lots of Alpine riders that love to get on a course.

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On 2/16/2019 at 11:29 AM, ursle said:

Sorry Pat, horse hockey.

When you use a 40.99 handicap on a par 22.5 course and your handicapped time changes that 22.5 par course to a 17.32 par course....

You're adding 5.22 seconds onto the times of anyone that races that course.

Which is around 25 ? nastar handicap points.

Right, you no longer set a stubbies course because no Alpine Snowboarders want to deal with skewed times. it's a pity because there are lots of Alpine riders that love to get on a course.

Wow.  I just enjoy riding through the course and appreciate that Pat takes the time to set a course with stubbies.

I couldn't care less about handicaps and the results of others and take the sage  advice of noschoolrider:

On 2/4/2019 at 6:39 PM, noschoolrider said:

more rewarding to focus on being the best (fastest) racer you can be on a variety of courses, instead of focusing on getting the lowest handicap on easy (or what you feel are "honestly handicapped") courses.

 

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:39 PM, noschoolrider said:

As lonbordin said, "The NASTAR system isn't perfect" and an example of this can be seen on the page for the Overall Snowboard Male Ranking (2017-18 Season).  On that page it shows Olympic snowboarder Mike Trapp ranked at 21.  Do you really think all (or any) of the 20 people ranked above Mike Trapp are faster than him?

Hey I like that link!! 😂 I know what you mean though. I can tell you for sure that Nate Soucy is faster than me and Jason Burrill, and probably Nate True. That ranking is kind of BS because it’s based on your single fastest run all season. My result was one night last year when I ripped off the run of my life. I did give Soucy some good competition all season, stole some races from him, but he’s faster overall and I have like 30 pounds on him, haha. 

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