Toe/heel lift & cant

[Jack M]

@BlueB, the point is your post was highly subjective and inaccurate yet you pass it off here as factual expert advice to the less experienced.  I find that rude to the providers of this forum, and misleading with an agenda.  Say what you want about racers' binding preferences, but when discussing lift and cant adjustability (the original question of this thread) there are clearly better mousetraps.

[H2O]

5 hours ago, Aracan said:

My ride is a Pure Boarding Bastard 168. IIRC, it has a 24.5 cm waist, enough to accomodate low rear angles even for my MP 29.something foot. Actually, the width of the different PB boards is calculated to allow 30° in the rear with a given Deeluxe SB shell - the longer the board, the bigger the shell. Unfortunately, the calculation only goes up to MP 28.

The advantages of the large splay as advocated by Pure Boarding are a relaxed, stable stance (think fistfighter or surfer) and the ability to really drive your rear knee into the snow on toeside turns.

Oh, and my stance is pretty standard: I am slightly above 6' and ride a 20" stance. Most guys in the PB crowd ride not only with a lot of rear canting, but also significant heel lift. But I have found it does not really help me, maybe due to the heel lift already provide by UPZ, as mentioned.

Disclaimer: Please do not take this as universal wisdom. I have not tried everything. But I have found this works well for me.

Thank you very much for your answer. I'll try!

[BlueB]

10 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

@BlueB, the point is your post was highly subjective and inaccurate yet you pass it off here as factual expert advice to the less experienced.  I find that rude to the providers of this forum, and misleading with an agenda.  Say what you want about racers' binding preferences, but when discussing lift and cant adjustability (the original question of this thread) there are clearly better mousetraps.

Everything we say is always subjective. Closest you can get to objectivity is scientific works in peer reviewed publications. Even then, there is possibility of agendas and non acceptance of ideas not conforming to establishment. But we are side tracking here... 

Inaccuracy... highly disputable. We can go at length, but it might not be very productive for Bomber. 

As for expertise, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not? How does one even become an expert in this field? We don't become certified carvers, or gear experts by any recognisable means. I certainly never claimed to be one. All I can offer is thoughts and anecdotal experience. 

My only intention was to encourage the OP to use and explore what he's got already. It's a good binding, which he needs to explore for settings. 

I do not quite see how exactly the free thoughts on a forum would be disrespectful? Did I ever mention TD as a bad binding? I only referred to "other systems" and there are few. Or we are just supposed to glorify Bomber product here, in order to be "respectful"? 

Last but not least, it's really comical that you'd call agenda on me. I use Snowpro as my carving binding (was a TD user before). I'm not associated to F2 or their retailers by any means. On the other hand, what bindings do you use and what used to be your relation to Bomber, again? 

As for canting lifting option out of the box, you are wrong. With TD you have to choose the bases at 0, 3 or 6 degrees. Yes, you can reduce the lift angle a bit, but then you start canting the binding. Anything else, you need to buy more bases. 

With F2, you can have lift of 0, 3, 6, or 9mm. This can be combined with canting at 0, 3, or 6mm lift. All straight out of the box. 

[teach]

On 11/16/2016 at 1:46 AM, McKarver said:

Just out of curiosity, what is the angle/degree of lift achieved using the biggest F2 shim?

I have a pair of F2 large race standard bail, and it's 240 mm approx between the ends of the toe and heel blocks. If you get a net 9 mm of lift over that span, that's a little over 2 degrees. The "rule of 60" is handy here: a 1 degree angle is about what you get from a rise of 1 mm over a span of 60 mm. Happy to give a full explanation via PM if you want.

I can't say for medium or small F2s, as I don't know the span, or whether the same wedges come with them. If they do, you'd get more lift, but still nowhere close to 6 degrees, for example.

[BlueB]

Actually, you are right with your math - I've drawn it out. Over 240mm, 9mm lift gets you 2 degrees. However, the points of support of boot sole are at the same side of both toe and heel block (towards the middle of the board), therefore, for 240mm outer span of blocks, you'd get 19.5mm sole support span, resulting in actual 3 degree lift. 

[McKarver]

The span of my toe and heel block is 236mm, and my F2 is a step in. Since  the heel rests on the pins,  the  heel is actually slightly elevated above the block, that lessens the angle a little.  Thanks for the rule of 60.

Wheather you use lifts and cants, or not, shouldn't your neutral stance be comfortable? (given your binding setup, stance, angles etc. are correct).  Lifts/cants help to achieve that right, while at the same time increaseing edge hold?

 

 

 

 

[teach]

I'm sure you'll get varying answers here. I'd say lift and cant are just one of several adjustments you make in order to make your neutral position and range of motion around that as functional and comfortable as possible. That is, to minimize or ideally eliminate "fighting your setup" and pain. Boots (ramp angle) and footbeds influence that too, so have to be taken into account.

With this all taken care of, edge hold comes from the board's torsional stiffness and flex pattern, sharpness, and your position in a turn.

One "fight" you can have with your equipment results in twisting the board unintentionally, and that reduces edge hold for sure. Lift/cant changes may fix this, so in that sense increase edge hold.

[BlueB]

Spot on! ^ 

Board needs correct input to hold. Binding setup allows rider to give that correct input in most effective way, or to minimize incorrect input. 

OP, yes the relaxed comfortable stance, while carpet carving, is what you want. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by BlueB

[pokkis]

Just me 2 cents of opinion.

I'm 180cm and ride with 54cm stance with small rear foot lift, used to ride years full flat with same stance. Angles 55/60.

On carpet it feels bad, i can not stand it. But when board moves and i make turns, i feel all like charm, could not be better.

But my setup is adjusted for riding on slopes, not for carpet riding, sorry

[Jack M]

On 11/16/2016 at 8:57 PM, BlueB said:

Inaccuracy... highly disputable. We can go at length, but it might not be very productive for Bomber.

You said "F2 / Snowpro shims are actually the best and safest way of lifting/canting."

That's a claim of fact, and it's wrong.  Implying Bomber bindings aren't as safe as another binding on their own website without evidence is a serious claim, and seriously rude.

You also said "They reduce the number of moving parts and connections, notorious for other systems."

That's also wrong compared to Bombers and if you didn't mean to indict Bomber along with all "other systems" you should have said so.

My bias is well known, and no, of course this forum is not a shrine to Bomber. But I find the above statements questionable at best, and presenting them as fact, here, is disrespectful.  This isn't the first time I've felt this way about a post of yours.

[philw]

I don't think people expressing a choice in equipment is "disrespect".

Cant:  hypocritical and sanctimonious talk, typically of a moral, religious, or political nature. "he had no time for the cant of the priests about sin".

[Neil Gendzwill]

Jack, you are the king of presenting your opinion as fact in that style.* I think everyone understands that what people write here are their opinions. We don't have to preface every statement with a qualification. If you disagree, present a counter argument. 

*IMHO. All statements in this post represent the personal opinion of Neil Gendzwill and do not necessarily represent reality in an entirely accurate manner. If you end up in the trees based on my advice, maybe listen to some other idiot instead. 

[b0ardski]

shims vs cant discs; the epic battle rages on

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, b0ardski said:

shims vs cant discs; the epic battle rages on

Both of those are the province of fools and novices. True experts know that the best solution is stacked pastrami. It must be thinly sliced for fine adjustments. Turkey doesn't have enough body to hold up. The high fat content of salami turns it rancid. 

[Jack M]

Neil, I'm all for people expressing their opinions, and it usually goes without saying that a person's post is their own opinion.  But talking about the safety of bindings is a more serious matter.

[b0ardski]

I like to

put lift shims under the toe/heel blocks and put the cant disc at full cant orientation

[BlueB]

On 11/21/2016 at 7:55 AM, Jack Michaud said:

You said "F2 / Snowpro shims are actually the best and safest way of lifting/canting."

That's a claim of fact, and it's wrong.  Implying Bomber bindings aren't as safe as another binding on their own website without evidence is a serious claim, and seriously rude.

You also said "They reduce the number of moving parts and connections, notorious for other systems."

That's also wrong compared to Bombers and if you didn't mean to indict Bomber along with all "other systems" you should have said so.

My bias is well known, and no, of course this forum is not a shrine to Bomber. But I find the above statements questionable at best, and presenting them as fact, here, is disrespectful.  This isn't the first time I've felt this way about a post of yours.

I already had a longish tirade about subjectivity, so I won't start repeating that again. 

Yes, I said "other systems" and I didn't exclude Bomber from that. The point is, I didn't attack Bomber's product, as you'd like, or perceive, it. I'll now go ahead and explain why I think that F2 style shim system is safer and has less parts that can move by accident. 

When you place the shims under the toe/heel blocks, using the block's own screws, they become part of that assembly and can not move. That's done on "screw through hole", fixed kind of assembly. 

With Burton/Ibex and TD you actually add another assembly under the plate of the binding. This introduces more separate screws and more points of failure, or slip. Catek has something similar too, where you stay attached by one single screw (brrr). Every extra assembly you have between board and boot is a potential point of failure. With Bomber you have: 1 - board to cant, 2 - cant to plate, 3 - plate to toe/heel block attachments. With F2/Snowpro, you have: 1 - board to plate, 2 - plate to block. 

I'll stop here, in line with my original brief comment, addressed at you, "count the screws". I really hope I won't have to go into other downsides... 

[charliechocolate]

With regard to safety, I suppose the materials have to be considered along with potential points of failure. It seems to me that plastic (F2, etc) would be less sturdy than metal (Bomber, etc).

Now setting this train back on track, @McKarver, I'll echo what @workshop7 said: experiment. You'll want to be comfortable while being able direct input to the board so it responds properly.

Edited November 22, 2016 by charliechocolate

[SunSurfer]

On 11/10/2016 at 9:42 PM, McKarver said:

   I use F2 Intec Titanium bindings. Can I change the cant and toe/heel lift, without using the stackable shims provided with the bindings? There's only fewi shims so it's not very versatile.    

    If my stance and binding  angles are good, how do I determine lift and cant?

To try and answer McKarver's original questions, and drag this thread back into line.

Can I change the cant and toe/heel lift, without using the stackable shims....?

You have to use some sort of wedge, but you are not limited to the ones F2 provides.

How do I determine lift and cant?

I make my own wedges and mesasure the result as illustrated. The Clinometer is one of many free apps that will measure levels/slopes for you. The Intec boot heel sits about 2mm above the Intec base plate.

The Intec heel & toe wedges are made of exterior ply and coated in epoxy resin. These have been in use for several seasons now.

The Snowpro toe lift wedge is made of HDPE kitchen chopping board. The cant wedges used to flatten out the built in SnowPro canting are made from 1mm thick layers of differing width HDPE to create a wedge shape.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by SunSurfer
Add details.

[SunSurfer]

How do I determine cant and lift?

Or did you mean how to decide what canting and lifting to use? That's a different thing all together. There are articles written about how to decide that on the Bomber site, I think with Jack Michaud's name attached. I've got my own theory about what is likely to be a good starting point, based on anatomy & geometry, which I've alluded to above. In the end you want to be in a comfortable balanced stance as you make a straight line glide down a slope, ready and able to move your weight over either edge to initiate turns in either direction. As Pokkis suggests above, unless you're on a stiff full isolation plate, your effective angles of rear heel and front toe lift and inward canting, relative to your hip and knee joints, will increase as the board bends in the turns. The more the board bends the greater the change.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by SunSurfer
typos

[Beckmann AG]

On November 10, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

I usually advise putting in some rear-foot heel lift. The reasoning is simple; your knees bend such that you'll end up behind the board, so a lift at the rear heel allows for recovery of your balance.

That's a little like saying the elevated heels on mountaineering boots get you to the summit quicker.

On November 10, 2016 at 3:42 AM, McKarver said:

If my stance and binding  angles are good, how do I determine lift and cant?

Read this, and everything else you can find on the subject, then rearrange the parts until you can manipulate your board intuitively.

[Beckmann AG]

11 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

True experts know that the best solution is stacked pastrami

^Opinion, or merely fact?.

Experience suggests that pastrami is too greasy, and wants to squid out the sides under load. If you're trying to split tenths, and the tape won't stick on account of the deli residue, try Prosciutto di Parma. Dry-aged, firm, and tasty.

In a pinch, you can use a good salami as a replacement Sidewinder bumper, but don't leave the board out at night. Raccoons and stuff.

[west carven]

howdy McKarver

if your only using flat shims at any height on that binding you will only get pure lift no matter what degree

your bindings are. cant is the left or right tilt off the toe/heel axis. don't know if this still works TD2 Tweak-o-matic

[McKarver]

Thanks. Tried the tweak-o-matic link, but didn't open. 

 I can understand the benefit of the front toe/rear heel lift, and the need to experiment to find what works for me. Regarding canting, it seems there's some who use outward cant while others use inward cant....?

I like the idea of fabricating shims from plastic cutting boards. I was thinking of using rigid fiberglass but gets messy.

 

 

[Jack M]

I like a little outward cant on the rear foot and some inward cant on the front foot.  I'm weird, but give it a try.  The outward cant on the back foot can really be an eye-opener on toeside.  Probably no need to be fabbing shims from cutting boards with TD2 or TD3 or Catek.