Controversial opinion?

[SWriverstone]

After watching all the video clips at Stoked, I've come to the possibly seditious conclusion that---even though I LOVE carving---I don't think it looks very cool to drag your hands/arms on the ground during laid-over turns. Somehow, this just seems kinda cheesy to me, and it almost seems to diminish the "awe" factor...because I'd be more impressed if I saw someone laid out flat with their arms crossed over their chest like a figure skater (in other words, not using arms/hands at all!).

Yeah, I know---I'm not entitled to such opinions when I can't even drag my hand on the snow yet! :)

Scott

[philistine]

hey man, whatever you like to do is fine with me, personal preference, style, whatever, as long as you're good at it.

At this point I am learning how to do the laid turns and I find myself instinctually putting my hands to the ground to keep myself from doing a hundred yard teapot.

But, I do agree, the simplicity of no hands touching the ground would look pretty cool.

[Jack M]

case in point:

http://ojankaivajat.1g.fi/kuvat/Zinal+2005/P1020214.JPG/full

twelve demerits.

I personally think that Patrice and Jacques pull off the EC style with exceptional grace and really make it look good. The way they do it is anything but cheesy. However it should be noted well that they are VERY experienced and that most of the time they are not reaching for the snow, the snow is coming up to them. (get it?) EC style can lead to many bad habits when attempted by the newby, namely, reaching for the snow, and bending over at the waist (see above).

But when the cord is just right, you may find yourself someday with your armpit on the snow too.

[philistine]

someone slap my hands, please

[D-Sub]

that pic jack posted is a beautiful example of exactly what not to do, illustrated perfectly

and it really does seem like patrice and jacques and maybe nils are the only ones who can do the show turns perfectly.

theyre still show turns though.

[SWriverstone]

Here's a good pic to illustrate the form I'd like to strive for---pretty darn laid-over...but good angulation and hands not touching the ground. (Anything wrong with this technique?)

[Guest Frappe]

They could get better angulation if they bent more at the knees, right?

[Jack M]

Waist down looks good, but the shoulders are dipped too much. Ideally, they should be more level.

Here is an excellent example of a textbook toeside:

www.bomberonline.com/JackM/cktoeside.jpg (Chris Karol)

and heelside

www.bomberonline.com/JackM/snwbrder.jpg (unknown racer)

[Baka Dasai]

Not such a controversial opinion really. For somebody who's only just starting out you look like you have all the makings of becoming a real technique-geek.

The only time I like to put my hands in the snow is when doing (attempting) 360s, but even then I think it would be more impressive to do a 360 without your hands in the snow.

[kinpa]

Has anyone ever done that drill where you hold a long bamboo pole in your hands or place it over your shoulders? I used to carry a short bamboo (about 2 feet) with tape on the ends (don't want to fall on that!) in my hands. It helped me to keep my hands out over the front of my board and it gave me a visual to get parallel with the slope. Putting the bamboo on your shoulders could be a little dangerous, but it does help to get your shoulders in line with the slope. Another way to think about it is that pinch in the rib cage to keep the shoulders up. I tried to reach for the snow at one point because I thought it looked cool, but it got me hunched over at the waist too much and the last thing I want to do is go down the hill sticking my butt out! It's just the same as a racer being told to hit the gates, but not even being close enough to them to do that! HOWEVER, I did have one time recently were I was low enough (getting low has always been a struggle for me) that the snow did touch my hand. Totally caught me off guard! It was kind of cool for that to happen, but on the other hand, I like my fingers where they are. I have to do too much writing and typing at work to deal with fingers that are all messed up!

[Gecko]

I used to skate with Jay Adams of Dogtown Fame...those guys are big proponants of Style. No matter how well you can do something if you look like dog5hit doing it then you were raked over the coals. Stinky style could kill your chances of being invited to another pool. Case in point my backside (toeside to all you not skaters) carve grinds were powerful but my lead hand always did stupid things that made my style look gay...really gay... finally after much heckling Jay had me hold my hands behind my back. At first my balance was screwy then I had a breakthough and it changed my skating...it pulled my balance in and helped centralize it. My backside smiths got easier to since all I had to do to make them stick was push my front hand down towards the nose. That said it is very hard to bring the hands in I tried a bunch of different things on the mountain including the hands behing the back trick but I'm not as good a snowboarder as I am a skater so that didn't work to well the only thing that really works at this point it the gunfighter stance which is pretty close to the behind the back thing. I think the big issue with hands out is that it "feels" safe. whether it is or not isn't relative to this feeling unfortunatly

[philw]

There's room for everybody, but personally I find that the style where the rider *appears* to dive for the snow during each turn looks a bit odd. If you happen to be there, fine, but it's not exactly one of my goals.

But anything which takes the sport away from sideslipping is good by me.

[SWriverstone]

I often try to go all the way down the mountain with my hands right at my sides, and try never to move them. Though I'm just a beginner, this really seems to force me to center my balance more, and rely more on body positioning. Invariably, the less I use my arms, the more in control and well-balanced I feel. (Also why "The Norm" has been a good exercise for me.)

Once during a whitewater workout, someone showed up with a piece of lumber that was determined to be about the same weight as a human arm. We took turns sitting in our boats upright (arms close to our chest) and holding the lumber out to the side (as if we were holding our arm out). This didn't exactly simulate what happens with an outstretched arm, but we were amazed at how heavy the "arm" was and how it pretty much tended to flip us when held out! (Point being, we often don't realize how much force holding an arm out can exert.)

The Swiss EC guys say it best, I think...

Why is it good to keep the arms along the body? Because in case of misbalance, the arms will oscillate and increase the loss of control. Try to recover your balance by placing your board correctly instead of gesticulating.

Scott

[Jack M]

Originally posted by kinpa

Has anyone ever done that drill where you hold a long bamboo pole in your hands or place it over your shoulders?

This and other practice drills are discussed here.

[neil sunday]

to ensure level shoulders, try riding with ski poles. they act as height indicators and will tell you how out of alignment your upper body is...

[pokkis]

When looking carving pics, you must remeber that they are snapshots fraction of second what happened.

Debending of timing, one can look good or bad, only way to judge carving is to look it from video, then one can see whole turn after turn.

That pic of Harald is from pretty stupid place, there was no speed where i tried to shoot pics, my mistake and i pushed trigger too early :rolleyes:

But hey, that's why i use rather video.

But back to subject, from pic is rather hard to see if person is touching snow or just having hands over snow. I used to destroy few pair of gloves per season earlier but nowadays one pair will last for few season and only difference is that now i just keep hands very gentle above snow or toch it extremely softly :D

[skywalker]

I tried fully laid out turns for some times this season with my hands on my back (frontside). Some of them worked more or less, but I can tell you that first of all I lost some layers of skin on my face ;) *Ouch*

I really want to have a picture of one of my FS EC-Turns without my hands touching the snow, but then I will for sure stop this experiment. The result so far is: I would strongly recommend to use your hands in really deep turns ;)... and to keep them from the snow in not fully laid down turns.

[Guest christoph]

Originally posted by SWriverstone

Here's a good pic to illustrate the form I'd like to strive for---pretty darn laid-over...but good angulation and hands not touching the ground. (Anything wrong with this technique?)

Hmmm ...... don't try to reach for the snow, but one day the snow is coming up to you.

If you ask for "anything wrong", there's a point I personally don't like in this pic .......

[forrest]

from what I've read on the Extreme Carving site part of the reason that their hands are on or near the snow is protection . They explicitly mention using one arm to protect the head and the other arm to protect the face. After I knocked myself out cold last winter I can honestly say that protecting your head is a worthwhile pursuit.

[gdboytyler]

Originally posted by D-Sub

and it really does seem like patrice and jacques and maybe nils are the only ones who can do the show turns perfectly.

theyre still show turns though.

I disagree that the fully laid out carves are just for show. On a steep run (black diamond rated), if you are going to carve turns AND keep your speed under control, the laid out carve seems to be the best method.

One of the two places that I've seen carving done on steep runs is in the Extreme Carving videos.

The other place that I've seen it was at the Wall at Snow Summit. I think the guy was a visiting racer from Europe. He was linking carved turns down the steepest section, fully dragging his hip and hands on the snow. He wasn’t using the EC technique, but he was definitely dragging body parts across the snow.

[D-Sub]

please note that I didnt say "only for show"

you did:)

[CarvCanada]

You can tell this dude is in the middle of changing edges, letting off on his angulation (the board is still inclinated, but his CM is going up and over and his board's about to follw) and rotating his upper body to his heelside.

In the middle of his carve he probably looked a lot more like this (Will Garrow), which in my opinion, is pure style! Catching with a picture the moment of letting off your angulation to switch edges doesn't make for a great picture, but I'm sure if we had a video of 3 secs before/after it'd look great. I made the above dude goofy by flipping the pic for comparison to Will Garrow

:)

[mrjamie]

I think the reality is that we all carve for our own enjoyment. If we happen to not look cool, I don't think many of us care; we're too busy enjoying the sensation of rocketing across the mountain on an edge.

However, I also think that in many cases the technique that happens to look 'more cool' will also provide a slightly more awesome sensation.

Whatever the case may be, the way Patrice and Jacques lay out full carves is, in my opinion, pure style.

[nils]

touching or not touching that is the question!

The ultimate goal we look at when learning and working on EC like turns is to do the same turns, fully laid, and without touching the snow, just hovering an inch above it during the full phase of the turn.

Such moves are possible in frontside bottom turns in surfing as seen with people like BK, billy hamilton, MR, or like tom carroll. Those could pull frontsides on huge waves just an inch above the water at full speed, doing a push-pull turn fully extended at the apex.

On the snow, everything goes faster despite the slower speed, because of the tight radiis of the turns of the snowboard. It means the lay down sequence is faster and is much more difficult to control than on water. The snow goes up at you but its hard to have it stop an inch from you, also because theedge grip is less forgiving than that of a surfboard.

So if it was that easy not to drag the snow, we would all be doing it already! ( am talking about head a few inches from snow).

What we do now is indeed protecting the head and shoulders from injuries in case something goes wrong!

I personnaly like the contact of the body draging and gliding on the snow, had a turn that even filled the gab between the goggles and the helmet with snow! Great fun!

Anyway its all about having fun and be able to vary the styles and techniques to adapt them to the terrain and also to the mood! I like EC on steeps, and more race style when it gets flatter and when i cruize!

Nils

[jtslalom]

I've been riding for 17 years now and still don't know what Euro-Carves are. Why get so excited about touching the snow. I came from a skii background and belive in just good technique. When riding a steep slope especially on a short board my hips and shoulder to chest area will hit the snow regardless of where my hands are. This should happen to almost all riders who carve steeps especially when they really round their turns. I think people should put less emphasis on touching the snow and more on just proper riding technique.