Advantages of hardboot snowboarding?

[RCrobar]

Hi Mr B

 

Sometimes communicating via a forum, and the written word, can be tricky.  What I mean by this is I feel I have been basically eluding to the same thoughts or points you made in your last post.  Prior learning can be both a positive and a negative and can be blended in with a persons overall athletic ability.  A persons overall athletic ability is enhanced via the pursuit of multiple activities.

 

If a person has been a ski racer or a skwal rider primarily, for their entire life, setting up an alpine board with traditionally steep angles 'could' create a positive prior learning situation.

 

If a person has been a freestyle snowboarder or skateboarder only for their entire life (like Ryan) setting up an alpine board with traditionally steep angles 'could' create a negative prior learning situation.

 

My intent was not to imply that if a rider could not carve in softboots, that he would automatically be able to carve in hardboots. It also was not to imply that high stance angles or low stance angles are a good or bad thing.

 

We as a forum are trying to get, I would assume, softboot snowboarders and skiers to try, enjoy and see the advantages of hardboots.  Ideally we want them to be successful as quickly and easily as possible.

 

Erazz enjoys riding in softboots with traditional softboot stance angles, he also is a big guy that wishes he had more power from this boots; whether he can carve or not doesn't really matter.  Simply setting up Erazz with snowboard hardboots (not ski boots), flexy plate bindings and stance angles close to what he is currently using on his existing softboot board, I am suggesting from the information erazz has provided, would create a positive prior learning situation that might have lead him to understand the power benefits of hardboots more quickly and with less frustration. 

 

Having said all that I am not naive to the fact that there are so many variables that contribute to success or failure and can change this outcome.  Regardless, if I was a bettin' man, this is where I would put my money. 

 

Bottom line, I hope erazz sticks with his hardboots and has a lot of fun ... what else really matters?

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited April 9, 2016 by RCrobar

[JRAZZ]

 

Bottom line, I hope erazz sticks with his hardboots and has a lot of fun ... what else really matters?

 

 

I probably will.  Stick to it, that is.  I am having fun!  Learning something new and challenging is part of it.

 

I don't doubt that my SB experience is somewhat to blame.  Some bad habits that don't cause a problem on a soft rocker board with soft boots are not acceptable on a narrow, stiff HB setup.  That's actually a good thing as it forces me to ride better.  

 

 

My reason for the initial question (why hardboots) was to see if I can get what I feel I lack from softboots.  Mainly support and responsiveness.  I think the answer to that is definitely yes!   I still need to tweak my setup, try out more things and just get more slope time.    I am also thinking that a wider board with lower angles might be easier for me to ride.  Will have to try that out.

 

Maybe the correct question would have been wide or narrow board but I get the sense that that is an even more contentious issue :)  

Edited April 9, 2016 by erazz

[b0ardski]

The bomber collective has a deep & wide variety of knowledge and experience but,(voice of bruce lee) you may need to empty your cup  

 

"water can flow, or it can CRASH, be water my friend"

Edited April 9, 2016 by b0ardski

[bumpyride]

You left out skill.

 

While this may be your experience, and while your experience may be typical, that does not make your experience a universal truth.  If it were, I would not have had so many happy days riding those very conditions on the equipment you describe as inappropriate.

 

Provided you have enough dexterity not to fold it permanently, a metal laminate race deck will work nicely in the bumps, specifically because it rebounds slower, and tends to flow through the rough, rather than fetching up on every little nook and cranny. Same thing in the crud and chop. 

 

Put that in the 'advantages' column. 

 

Can a different piece of gear make a difference? Absolutely.

 

But if you find yourself on the 'wrong' platform, temper your expectations and inputs, and you'll have a grand old time.

Absolutely, you're correct, I did leave out skill.  

 

Developing skill is conditional upon whether or not you're able to practice the skill needed in an arena where you're not hopelessly overwhelmed.  If I had started out boarding on a very narrow race board and headed out to the bumps or powder, I would have that experience "ingrained in the brain", and would be very reticent to try again.  It seems, for me, very difficult to get fellow hardbooters to even try off piste, even with the offer of using some of my "free rental fleet" to try it out.  I would be very excited to have the rest of the mountain shared with others on an alpine set-up.

 

When speaking with other snowboarders (non-alpine), they're pretty incredulous that an alpine set-up will work off piste.  The usual comment is how fast can you go, or limited to the trenches and turns.

 

While I agree with you in general, and especially in skill levels, the whole of the ski industry (aside from making more money through obsolesce ) has been dedicated to making equipment to tackle more difficult terrain easier.  When you take Rossignol skis in the 7 series with the early rise and honeycombed nose and compare that with cambered stiff skis of yore, it has opened up more of the mountains for many more people with less skill, and those with a high degree of skill are absolutely crushing it.  Powder, crud and bumps on skis that have the new technology are similarly being handled the way fat bikes and suspension bikes have handled the same in the biking world.

 

What I ride through bumps depends on the conditions.  Soft fresh snow, I ride a softer flexing board.  Spring heavy wet snow, I ride a longer stiffer board that can cut through the corn and offer a straighter line through the slower conditions.  In hard conditions I ride a shorter stiffer board in order not to catch the tail in a tight trough,  In powder, I wouldn't even consider a stiffer board--why fight it.

 

Again you're absolutely correct about a titanal board.  In theory that should work when you have the opportunity to scrub your speed and choose your line in a well thought out set of bumps.  Personally I would never buy one for off-piste.  Dexterity somehow goes out the window when shoulders are perpendicular to the fall line and you're threading your way through a mogul field that has bumps that have formed pretty much willy nilly according to the drops and trees .

 

And of course, again, you're right about skill.  A good pool player can shoot good pool with a broomstick, but then again he can't put much English on the cue ball., 

 

I would welcome the opportunity to open up the hill to hardbooters.  In the last couple of days, I've been able to offer gear to 2 other hardbooters here at Big Sky and actually have some takers for the next year.

 

And I do have a grand old time, but it's much better-er on the right gear.

 

Thanks for mentioning the skill factor.  It was something I was not considering when looking at equipment.

[BlueB]

The bomber collective has a deep & wide variety of knowledge and experience but,(voice of bruce lee) you may need to empty your cup [emoji14]h34r:

"water can flow, or it can CRASH, be water my friend"

That's funny, our Level 3 examiner used that famous B Lee quote other day, jut as we were to attack a steep mega - bump run :)

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[JRAZZ]

It was the stupid stance or should I say it's the stance, stupid!

 

All I had to do was lower the front toe lift from 5 degrees to 2 degrees.   WOW!!!  Apparently I CAN turn this thing.  Cat track?  No problem.  Lay down in a carve? Well, this is work in progress but I can definitely see me getting there (others commented that conditions were weird today and hard to carve, but I digress).  

 

Point is I had an awesome day!  It's not the board, the board is fun.  It's not the boots, they are great for my weight. It was the toe lift.  Looking back I think I had so much toe lift that my knee was over my heel.  I tend to lean back on turns and this just made it worse.  The turning point was rereading the book of B.  Especially the instructions on how to setup the binding.  There was a part there that I glossed over:

 

At this stage of the game, if the front foot is set up properly, carving a turn one-footed on easy terrain should be a piece of cake.

 

 

I had the worst time getting off the lift.  I couldn't skate!  Kept on leaning back.  Could not push from the toe side, only from the heel side like I was in a duck stance.  Now I didn't pay attention to that because when I started snowboarding I was taught a duck stance, and the skating suffered consequently.  I got better at skating only after moving to a forward stance.  

Fast forward to last week.  I had set up my front binding and had noticed that standing bound in on my front foot felt weird, not stable.  So out came the allen wrenches and voila!  Nice stable stance.  On the snow today the first thing I felt was how stable, comfortable, and easy skating was!  Skate to the lift? No problemo.  Ride off the lift? Sure!  I was facing more straight and had complete control.  Heck, this was easy!   On this setup I can do a green run "one footed".  

And so on for riding downhill.  My quads aren't burning, turning is easy and fun.  It actually feels like a snowboard, imagine that!  As a plus it was far more stable.  I could go fast.  This is fun!!!

 

I am blown away by how such a small change makes such a huge difference.  My board went from being almost unridable to great.  Best part is that I got to enjoy the things I was looking for, the responsiveness and support of the boots.

 

Sorry for the ramble but I am stoked!

Can't wait for next week. 

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

^

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

3* of lift is a lot. As is true with canting. A stiff cuff, angled the 'wrong' way (keep in mind, everyone's biomechanics differ) will throw a nice monkey wrench into anyone's ability to balance, steer, or edge the board. That was one of the beautiful things with Catek's design, that such 'tweaks' were just a few turns-of-the-screw away. Anyway, nice 'guided discovery' moment for you! Glad you found it!

[John Gilmour]

..........

Edited April 19, 2016 by John Gilmour

[John Gilmour]

Snipped....

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Don’t think of it as rain, but a forecast. Whether or not you choose to carry an umbrella and stay dry is up to you.

Hmm snipped the wrong section.. Sigh, anyhow I think soft boots are finally becoming like a sifter flexing Hardboot . It's a good thing it took over 30 years of hardbooting wouldn't have gotten attention.

That being said...the BEST OF soft boots are - well , leaps and bounds better than even 5 years ago. When a soft boot can handle an alpine deck.....

That day. It's here . Ride the Thirty Two Focus. Boa... It is stiffer than a Koflach Valluga 4000 lite or an Albona, and close the being as responsive as a Nordica SBH. At 1/2 the weight. And with far better heel retention and lose lateral foot roll.

Still, in a race course, in all but deeply rutted race courses... You are better off in hardboots. There comes a point where the surface gets too hard to find softboots too squishy to hack into the surface. That's when hardboots turn a hard day in softboots into a fun day in hardboots.

Edited April 19, 2016 by John Gilmour

[b0ardski]

 Sigh, anyhow I think soft boots are finally becoming like a sifter flexing Hardboot . It's a good thing it took over 30 years of hardbooting wouldn't have gotten attention.

That being said...the BEST OF soft boots are - well , leaps and bounds better than even 5 years ago. When a soft boot can handle an alpine deck.....

That day. It's here . Ride the Thirty Two Focus. Boa... It is stiffer than a Koflach Valluga 4000 lite or an Albona, and close the being as responsive as a Nordica SBH. At 1/2 the weight. And with far better heel retention and lose lateral foot roll.

Still, in a race course, in all but deeply rutted race courses... You are better off in hardboots. There comes a point where the surface gets too hard to find softboots too squishy to hack into the surface. That's when hardboots turn a hard day in softboots into a fun day in hardboots.

 

Thirty Two Focus. Boa have a walk mode? Cable as easy to replace after 5-10 yrs as a buckle? Will it step in to a low profile binding that'll last 10-20 yrs?

 

Love my SBHs; with intuition liner, cuts the weight and increases heel hold; but my scarpa ATs flex better, weigh less and ski better, hinge to hinge buckle totally locks the heel down too with easy liner removal and pin tech toes for splitting. 30 yrs of improvement is a good thing for duck footers but there's no good reason to buy a whole different system designed for lateral foot roll when my bio-mechanics don't allow gorilla style stance.