Why is the carving community so darn small?

[Jack M]

I don;t think that's what it is.  I think its more like "Wow - that's cool, but he's wearing ski boots".   Because as crucible mentioned above, the freestyle stuff can be as or more difficult (and more dangerous) than carving at its extremes and yet the kids aspire to that more than the clean turns. 

 

Good point but I think it can be both.  As in, snowboarders may think they could never do that because they'd never want to use "ski" boots, and skiers may think they could never do that because they'd never want to use a snowboard. While a kid sees a pro freestyler and thinks hmm, they're on the same equipment as me, so I could do that someday.

 

I've always felt our biggest market is skiers with an interest in snowboarding, and snowboarders with a strong alpine skiing background.

 

What I really do not understand (tangent alert, flame suit on) is the appeal of telemarking.  I know some amazing telemarkers and they look great but I don't see that equipment as having any inherent advantages in any facet of getting down the mountain.  Racing/Carving? No. Powder? No. Trees? No. Moguls? No. Freestyle? No. Yet there's way more of them than us so what do I know.

[bumpyride]

Telemarkers can get up hills with the same equipment they can go down.  They can use their equipment without extraneous gear to get into the back-country (split boarders and randonee -French for can't Telemark-pretty much same thing).  Resorts are just training grounds.  Also they make better maids because they're so used to being on their knees.

[lordmetroland]

What I really do not understand (tangent alert, flame suit on) is the appeal of telemarking. 

 

Once you have eaten enough lentils, the allure of telemarking will reveal itself to you. Free your heel, brother, and your a** will follow.

[st_lupo]

>>>

Telemarkers can get up hills with the same equipment they can go down...

<<<

 

I think I need glasses.  The first two times I read this I couldn't figure out why telemarketers were so interested in getting up and down so many hills, and wondering if it would be heavy carrying those computers and telephone would get really heavy.  Was funny to read though...

[Beckmann AG]

I think it's the coolest thing to do on snow but, obviously, not everyone feels that way.  Why do you think that is?

 

We recreate kinesthetically, but are inspired to pursue our pursuits based on visual inspiration.

And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

…Or beholden, which is why those on the ‘inside’ watch a mediocre carving video and say ‘ooh, carve!’, while someone on the ‘outside’ says, ‘meh, ski boots on a snowboard?’.

 

Personal investment in a given activity has a way of distorting one's apprehension of other viable alternatives.

 

Anomalies attract the eye, but unless the observer has some idea of what they are watching, a point of entry, so to speak, they will do what they have been conditioned to do when they encounter something foreign.

They gaze in wonder, then move in the other direction.

 

There’s a transportation museum on the Maine coast, and in the foyer stands a cut-away model of a turbine engine. 

You know it does something incredible, but you have no idea how it works, and the repeating network of parts and plumbing distracts the eye with kaleidoscopic ferocity.

 

So you move along and check out the lacing pattern of the spoked wheels on the Ford Model T.

 

The average skier watching the average hardbooter knows they are watching something distinct, and yet, given that they barely understand what they are doing, they have almost no basis for understanding what you are doing, and therefore have no reason to pursue the question.

Unless they are curious.  

Which puts them in the minority.

 

Then mix in the various barriers to entry, the near total lack of competent instruction, and the raw cost of hiring that rare professional that can move you forward in a timely manner.

 

There are obviously ‘better’ ways to spend your recreational time and money.

 

—

People have a fundamental need to feel like individuals, while at the same time feeling like they belong to something larger than themselves.

This is one of the reasons why mainstream snowboarding suffered rapid growth, and yet now seems to be failing:

One banana looks just like the next, unless you toss it through the air, or smash it with a hammer.

 

Which brings us here:

 

 

What I really do not understand (tangent alert, flame suit on) is the appeal of telemarking.  I know some amazing telemarkers and they look great but I don't see that equipment as having any inherent advantages in any facet of getting down the mountain.  Racing/Carving? No. Powder? No. Trees? No. Moguls? No. Freestyle? No. Yet there's way more of them than us so what do I know.

 

Telemark skiing is just different enough that the skier can feel 'unique', yet close enough to alpine that the barriers to entry are minor.

The gear is familiar, and one can fake alpine turns if the reversed lead thing doesn’t work out.

You can’t use much of the mountain on free-heel gear unless you ‘get it right’ so to speak.

Do it wrong, and you’ll spin yourself in a circle, or generate enough heat in your quads to rival a crashing Ukrainian power plant.

 

Do it right, and nothing 'bad' happens. That’s a distinct cost/benefit feedback loop.

 

Meanwhile, (and this should be obvious) you can be severely 'skills deficient' on a board or alpine skis, and fake your way down the hill for the better part of the day.

 

For a particular market segment, telemark works in that it affirms appropriate use of the equipment in a way that mainstream skiing/snowboarding does not. That same population tends to be self-motivated, self-educated, and non-competitive (in the traditional sense).

 

Using free-heel gear might get you some ribbing about backpacks and granola, but other than that, there’s almost no cultural friction.

Given the range of movement, the execution can be whatever you want it to be. It’s your sport, in your image.

 

Thus, you can easily be that individual within the group. 

A Gros Michel among the Cavendish, if you will.

 

Jack is no dummy, yet doesn’t grasp the appeal or utility of telemark gear.

Attributes which should become obvious in the presence of a skilled practitioner.

 

How then, is the average ski area patron supposed to appreciate the alpine snowboard?

Edited March 9, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Neil Gendzwill]

We think we look graceful and dynamic but judging by comments on the video Ryan Knapton posted the other day many softbooters have a less than complimentary opinion. "Retarded", "may as well be skiing", etc: basically most of them don't consider it snowboarding.

[philw]

We think we look graceful and dynamic but judging by comments on the video Ryan Knapton posted the other day many softbooters have a less than complimentary opinion. "Retarded", "may as well be skiing", etc: basically most of them don't consider it snowboarding.

A good point... it's all a question of perspective.

 

I happen to like Ryan's style, but some of the "dive for the snow" styles seem weird to me. However I don't think I would want to slag off either group based on their "style", as that's entirely a matter of style. I may well slag many of them on their riding ability, but that's not the same thing.

 

I'm often called a "retard" (an American term I believe) by kids who I beat playing online games. Children are delicate - they don't like new things. Or losing. The new sport of snowboarding wasn't pioneered by children for a reason.

 

And back on my previous point... whilst most of us don't want to win style wars, we're probably pretty sure that we're the fastest on the hill. I'm happy to cede the "riding a snowboard down a stair well" award to any spotty teenager who wants it ;-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

we're probably pretty sure that we're the fastest on the hill.

 

Any decent BX racer could smoke the majority of us.  Had it happen to me.

[CMC]

Great response Beckman.  I think the question that Jack should answer:  If Jack were on tele skis, would he grunt like a tennis pro? ;)

[skwalguy]

Look what they are missing out on!

 

[Mig]

Great response Beckman.  I think the question that Jack should answer:  If Jack were on tele skis, would he grunt like a tennis pro? ;)

Or like old slalom skateboarders? :)

Heavy grunting at the Canadian Nationals

Yes, I am the MASSIVELY fat dude in black... Haaa! Haa! Ha!

Edited March 9, 2016 by Mig

[rbaldwin]

Or like old slalom skateboarders? :)

Heavy grunting at the Canadian Nationals

Yes, I am the MASSIVELY fat dude in black... Haaa! Haa! Ha!

Oh man, the link does not work for me. But I have seen you skate before, and it's impressive!

[bumpyride]

What the carving community needs is more emphasis on all mountain carving.  I borrowed this from the Oregon ride board.  This gets me excited, even though it's soft boots.

[Beckmann AG]

Great response Beckman.  I think the question that Jack should answer:  If Jack were on tele skis, would he grunt like a tennis pro? ;)

T-y.

Given that a quality telemark turn is almost exactly the same as a toeside @ 60degrees, and given his history of sliding about on snow, if Jack had the time and interest to become even remotely competent on skis, he'd be grinning, not grunting.

Particularly if he ventured into the bumps, among the trees, on a powder day.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Mig]

Oh man, the link does not work for me. But I have seen you skate before, and it's impressive!

Sorry about that. The link should work now. Turn the volume up for full effect... Haaa! Haa! Ha!

[Erik J]

What I really do not understand (tangent alert, flame suit on) is the appeal of telemarking.  I know some amazing telemarkers and they look great but I don't see that equipment as having any inherent advantages in any facet of getting down the mountain.  Racing/Carving? No. Powder? No. Trees? No. Moguls? No. Freestyle? No. Yet there's way more of them than us so what do I know.

 

I picked up Nordic gear this season for something else to do on the snow. I has a vision in my head of gliding effortlessly through the woods while taking in the wilderness and breathing the winter air. My first day out resulted in a cracked rib, bloody nose, blisters, ripped clothing, quads of fire and sheer terror. It was a lot like my first day snowboarding. 

 

I have no point, other than I read about free heel and instantly think of the pain I am still in. 

 

Just sayin

[Corey]

Sounds dangerous Erik.  Better stick to snowboarding.  I laugh at little hills on a snowboard that give me fits of terror on XC skis!  

[lowrider]

 Perhaps a little pole on the types who carve here. Would you be the type of person who lives their life in the conventional  9 to 5 pattern or one who lives life by a slightly different clock ? My contention is that 9 to5er's would probably be less inclined to fallow the long carve !

[rbaldwin]

I'm a professional kept man/sex toy for my wife.

[Neil Gendzwill]

We agree.  That said, getting converts on hardboots is way, way, way easier on groomers than on pow days.  Who's going to demo foreign equipment on a day with fresh snow?

 

Additionally, while I love riding hardboots in pow, it is a very different feel/ride than soft boots.  Hardboots are way more supportive, no doubt, but the small movements that are easy in soft boots require a more delicate touch in hardboots, and while I've never skied powder, I can imagine that hardbooting in the soft stuff has a similar feel to skiing it.  We will be working with our production company and photographer(s) to get some pow day videos going, albeit it may not happen until next season unless we have a much snowier late March than we are now.

 

I never really learned how to carve low, C-shaped turns like the majority of people on BOL do until I hooked up with Riceball, Corey and a few others at Nakiska.  I was always just an all-mountain guy on hardboots, taking them everywhere just like I used to do on skis.  I switched to hardboots because softboots just weren't working for me at the speed and in the terrain I liked to be on.  Mind you, those were ski liners in sorels at the time.  I expect if I were on a stiff modern softboot setup I would have little motivation to switch to hardboots for what I like to do. 

[nutmeg]

I think it's the coolest thing to do on snow but, obviously, not everyone feels that way.  Why do you think that is?

The decrease of snowboaders' "market-share might also be related to improvements in ski technology. Modern material (carving skis) seems to be a lot easier to ride fespecially for beginners, and people seem to be able to go off-slope in unfavorable conditions (heavy wet snow, etc.).

[Aracan]

 

My contention is that 9 to5er's would probably be less inclined to fallow the long carve !

Then you obviously know a very different bunch of carvers than I do. That minority sports attract "individualists" is nothing but a cliché, I think. Among the carvers I know are insurance experts, bankers, IT people, people in law-related professions - all jobs that you would probably associate with having to wear a tie.

[MikeC]

 My contention is that 9 to5er's would probably be less inclined to fallow the long carve !

Describes myself and the guys I ride with exactly.

 

I also don't see an easy way for married folks with kids to get into hardbooting.  How's Dad gonna teach Jimmy and Sally to ski if he needs to rip turns all day?  It's not as conducive as just jumping into a set of skis and going out with the fam.

[Missionman]

actually i thought the predominant/average demographic on this site was mid-40's, professionals like engineers (per some old topics that were posted here).

 

With that said, I can certainly identify with what you say exactly.  The last three winters (including this dismal one), I have averaged about 15 days on the hill each year - I just don't have the time to be out on the hill all that often.  About half of those days would have been with my now 6 yr old son, so I'd ski at least part of those days, and MAYBE try to get some carves out when he spent time with his mother.  The balance of time was split between soft boots and hard boots and sometimes skiing on my own. I can probably count the number of hours that I am on hardboots per year on my hands and toes - which still isn't a bad thing because some of my favourite days on the hills have been hardboots on the early groom, softboots in the trees, then skis to end the day.   

 

So I am "into" hardbooting, but I certainly haven't gotten the time to develop the skill as much I would like (because of the kid thing).   To be honest, I might enjoy owning the gear as much as I enjoy using it - which is a good thing for me  :).    

Describes myself and the guys I ride with exactly.

 

I also don't see an easy way for married folks with kids to get into hardbooting.  How's Dad gonna teach Jimmy and Sally to ski if he needs to rip turns all day?  It's not as conducive as just jumping into a set of skis and going out with the fam.

[jng]

I also don't see an easy way for married folks with kids to get into hardbooting.  How's Dad gonna teach Jimmy and Sally to ski if he needs to rip turns all day?  It's not as conducive as just jumping into a set of skis and going out with the fam.

 

For me, hardbooting is actually the best gear for a family outing.

 

I picked up tele a few years before I had kids and that was great for teaching the kids to ski, but I have since returned to the board because the kids are too fast.  I actually hardboot more now than I ever did before kids since I used to spend more time on softboots searching for powder and steeps.

 

The kids tend to ride more blues and easy blacks these days, so by hardbooting, I can still have fun and be challenged on the same terrain as them.