Coiler price increase - Titanal shortage

[Lucasgo]

Go Bruce with the ingenuity!

[charliechocolate]

Anyone with insider info on how will the shortage affect other manufacturers that use metal, e.g. Kessler, Donek, Prior, etc.?

[Apex Insider]

Kessler is expanding their manufacturing capability and making big investments in new machinery. While they are being quiet about it, I don't think it's a coincidence that they are expanding at the same time that AMAG is cutting off .3mm Titanal supply. Based on their history of innovation (one of, if not the first, to use metal in snowboards), if anyone is going to figure it out, I would put my money on Hansjuerg Kessler. 

[trailertrash]

I would put my money on Bruce to figure it out and make it affordable for the average carver.

[Surf Quebec]

Bruce told me that Prior has always used 0,4 mm titanal in their board.

[BlueB]

Alloys equivalent to Titanal are available from other sources too. Don't know in what thicknesses, though.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Apex Insider]

I would put my money on Bruce to figure it out and make it affordable for the average carver.

 

I don't doubt that. But it will take time and a lot of test boards in the trash to get it right. That's why I'm glad I have a couple of metal Coilers already in my quiver. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Apex Insider

[Corey]

Titanal is an aluminum alloy.  What properties does it have that a 'regular' aluminum alloy like 2024 or 6061 doesn't?  

 

Of course, I'm assuming 0.3mm sheets of those are available.  That's probably the bigger question!  

[JRAZZ]

I think Titanal is closer to 7075 than to 2024 (the intraweb calls it 7068 T6).  The 7000 series are very stiff with a modulus of elasticity approaching steel.

Moreover it seems that they do some sort of anodizing that improves adhesion.

 

Can you use other 7000 series alu?  Probably.  You can also probably get 0.3mm 7068 T6. The anodizing is another problem.  That is really something specialized and you would have to pay a pretty penny to get your stock anodized.

 

I don't think the world is ending but I do think that as far as snowboard construction is concerned you would have to either go with 0.4mm or be creative! 

[JRAZZ]

And here it is from the horses mouth:

 

https://www.amag.at/en/our-aluminium/sporting-consumer-products/sporting-goods/amag-titanalr.html

 

 

AMAG Titanal® - one of the top high strength alloys in the world – is used in various applications. Especially in the sports and leisure industry, the material characteristics such as formability, anodising and bonding capacity, as well as weldability, are constantly adapted to ideally match the demands of the end product. 

 

AMAG Titanal® is used as a supporting element in high-quality composite skis. The material’s isotropic characteristics and an elongation limit of > 600 MPa with thicknesses of 0.50-1.20 mm are used to enhance torsion resistance, edge grip and smooth running. On the other hand, the deformation tendency is markedly reduced. Bonding in composites, e.g. with epoxy resin adhesives is achieved by means of an adaptive version of AMAG Titanal® with a thin, openpore phosphoric acid anodised layer.

[JRAZZ]

BTW, the answer to why metal boards feel different than glass is not a simple one.  Metal (Aluminium in this case) have a couple of differences.   Metal is isotropic (behaves the same in every direction) and resists compression better than composites (granted, in this application it's probably less of an issue because the compression isn't that much).  

 

Metal does, however, have an ace.  It's not readily apparent from engineering material but metals (and alu is especially) have some hysteresis in the stress-strain curve.  That means it does not spring back as readily as glass - damp in other words.

 

This sucks.   

 

Fiberglass is great. It's strong (about 2-3 times stronger than aluminium), cheap, and easy to bond to wood.  Winner, right?  Sure.  But making it damp is really not simple.  Rubber strips help but they are rather localized.   A full titanal sheet would add the same stiffness as a FRP layer, weigh about the same, and add dampness all over.   Hmmm.... no easy solution for a replacement.

 

My engineering nerdness have been engaged.  This will be interesting :)

[pow4ever]

I wonder what other industrial/application use 0.3mm sheet in a massive scale.

Can we then buy a small portion from the "big guy".

Probably easier say than done...

[bruincounselor]

I'm not a metallurgist nor an engineer. But I recently read an article about a regional business that just invested a ton of money in the anodizing process for their stuff and they are taking other commercial clients too (I recall aerospace was one line so it must be good work). Damned if I can't find the article They might know or be able to get the knowledge of what process is needed to make the metal "stick": They sell chainmaille kits and have some interesting stuff, the owner figured out how much of the market she was missing by only having precious metals so she got into making aluminum in pretty colors: http://weavegotmaille.com/

Edited March 16, 2016 by bruincounselor

[Corey]

http://weavegotmaille.com/

LOL at that site name! Awesome.

[lowrider]

 Now there's some therapy while waiting for next season !

[Bruce Varsava]

Not much progress made yet on the acquisition of .3mm but I'm still busy building and no time to spend on the phone.

BTW I did build a metal board in 1999 ish. Used 6061 and  the racer using it said it was the best board he rode until we found out it lasted half a day and lost all its camber. No internet yet so didn't know about Titanal. Mark Fawcett was the driving factor behind that build as he was onto me in 1998 to do it. I dropped the project after that.

So now you know whey we can't use any inferior alloys.

If I would have known about Titanal we most likely would have been on metal boards a lot sooner!

Another funny part to the story was I had a set of Fischer Racing Cut 203s sitting in the corner of my shop. I could see they had aluminum in them ( 1.5mm top and 1 mm bottom) and could almost bend the tip at 90 degrees and they would spring right  back. Of course I was wondering WTF is that stuff? I first heard about Titanal in 2004 after a race Jasey was in where it was solid ice and all the top positions were on Kesslers using the Titanal stuff. No one else stood a chance.

Did make a .4mm board and tested it in rather miserable conditions and I would say it was OK but lacked a few of the characteristics you guys are all spoiled with. Definitely shows potential especially for more aggressive riders. I feel boards for lighter and less aggressive riders and BX boards will be a bit tough to sort out though. As of now it looks like an order of .4mm will be split among the Cdn builders so we can get to work with it. As mentioned, Prior has used this in their alpine boards but not BX boards. So it may work out quite well with a bit of testing and development. Its not like starting from scratch as the trick will be to come up with a transition formula to take the designs from .3 to .4 and I feel that would take me all of about a week or two to sort out satisfactorily.

I'll be working on that next winter and slowing production down due to the lack of .3mm ( only about 70 boards of material not accounted for)

 

BV

Edited March 17, 2016 by Bruce Varsava

[Chouinard]

Compression is the key to the edge control on hard surfaces and the overall dampness of the boards. During a board bending event [turn] the torsional stiffness of the board distributes the centrifugal force across the width of the board instead instead of wasting the energy twisting the front and back ends of the board around its long axis independent of the stiff center section [due to the support of the bindings]. By engaging the entire width of the board [lateral stiffness] you then spread the load further along its length resulting in a longer effective edge length on hard [ice] surfaces that can withstand the higher load without yielding laterally provided you are literally riding the edge. Widening the width of engagement on a hard surface will decrease your ability to maintain the edge because you will loose the ability to penetrate the surface.  Would you rather have someone stand on your hand with flat bottom shoes or with the stem of a high heal? 

 

By distributing the centrifugal force across the board you engage the entire cross section of metal which now acts as a simple beam between the two bindings and a cantilever fore and aft. Bending stresses developed during the board bending event are resisted by the available section modulus which is now the entire sheet of metal because it has minimal twist. Within the section modulus all the material above the neutral axis is in compression.

 

The difference between a spring board and a damp board is stiffness. Due to the geometric constraints of a snowboard the only opportunity to increase stiffness is to pick stiffer materials with a higher Young's Modulus i.e. compression strength.

 

Considering that the thicker material is even stiffer yet the comment above regarding the use of properly sized and oriented holes in a thicker cross section of material is a potential opportunity to deliver the same performance characteristics as the thinner material, all other considerations aside.    

[lowrider]

   However if you punch, drill, lazer,  or use edm to make .4mm comparable to .3 mm you might run the risk of failure of the titinal sheet by introducing multiple stress points at every perforation. How many holes where can they be located and how do you stress relieve each hole ? Now is the time to step up order your new board and specify where the holes should be and how many you want.

[Chouinard]

Point well taken but keep in mind careful selection of properly designed holes in areas of zero stress in the pursuit of weight reduction is why vehicle frames look like Swiss cheese. A similar approach can be used to reduce the stiffness of a thicker cross section and reduce the increased weight of the thicker material without creating creating detrimental stress risers. My original response was to make the case that compression strength is a significant characteristic of metal boards that improves their behavior on icy surfaces. 

[lowrider]

 Frame analogy is an example but not a good one to support your argument . Since the board is in fact the beam as well as the suspension lets use a leaf spring as a more accurate representation of the actual dynamics at play. If you have the ride (snowboard)  built as desired   but  find you only have a thicker leaf spring available do you change a whole bunch of other inputs to compensate for it's stiffness or  make a new spring of the same thickness and punch it full of holes to equal the previously available one ? I've seen lots of springs of varying thicknesses but never one full of holes. :-)

[Habs2c]

Guys, no offense, but that is waaaaaaaay too technical for me! Couldn't resist.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Habs2c

[MikeC]

I will leave adhesion specifics for Bruce to answer (if and when) but one issue I see with piercing the titanal many times is how the subsequent layers and glue will shear against each other.

 

Outside of the material moment, boards are stiff because of the resistance to shear that the glue provides between the surfaces.  If anyone has ever bent a stack of material stacked loosely, then glued them all together and repeated, the changes are very obvious.  I wonder how the glue (epoxy, whatever it is) will react to shear stress when it is not a smooth surface, but rather two surfaces connected by many small columns (the holes in the titanal) it seems this would introduce areas of stress in the cured glue structure and maybe reduce the life of adhesion.

 

I find this thread very interesting.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I've stayed away from this for awhile, and, likely, won't step in again unless asked...  

Look at the Madds' topsheet. It's Carbon, well, that's cool, but... It Forks out, at an angle, for resonance reduction. Metal can do this, until you get to the pointy end, where it'll need rounding off. Metal sheeting can also be 'planed', by a metal buffer (used to remove oxidation, usually), but that's costly, and perhaps not as precise as what's wanted here. "Perforation" drilling, while effective in bendable areas, presents random stress areas, and costs as an extra step in process. Also, the voids need to be filled, so Vacuum Pressing becomes more likely (and possibly expensive). So, we've a chunk of metal we want to use, but can't fit into the jig=saw puzzle!

Routering the wood core is likely a key (yet another step, but very repeatable once it's in the process) to put the flex at the right points. Using strips of Carbon-fiber can also enhance dampening/flex, and varied glass thicknesses can help with 'snap' and stiffness. Once the wood core has been shaped in 3-D, by router, then contoured areas can be used by combining the 3 'extra' stressor materials I've noted. One needs only look at the Reto LSD or Hayes Bros. boards to see what I mean. Keep in mind, both the glass and carbon weaves can 'mold' to the core contours easily (even without vacuum presses) to increase rigidity. Moreover, metal sheet can also be 'brake pressed' into formed contours with relative ease, although that's yet, another step, and could really affect stiffness in a bunch of ways.Lastly, Titanal might not be the only metal that can fit this bill (although, it seems to be the best found for the cost), so there is the possibility of a 'replacement' metal, but it will likely involve more R+D yet to be included in the materials list. I know that Aggression didn't translate Volant's Steel-Skis over to boards with a lot of success (TB's hitting a lift tower from the downhill side not-with-standing! Bent Shnoz!), and the weight was an issue there too.

Overall, the issue, to me, seems how to fit this thicker metal into the boards, in the right amounts, to get the flex and dampness wanted. Again, think of the cores, contouring around the wood form, then the uses of supplemental materials, and then don't put the thicker metal where it'll load-up into a kinked form. I'm no Engineer, just the son of one (and someone who's made a paper-bi-plane able to to fly 24 seconds, indoors, which, is stuck in the rafters of a roller-coaster hangar..). The solution is almost in hand, and the big issues are production costs and R+D with materials.   I wish all the best of luck.

[Mike T]

I sincerely hope this has a happy resolution... but either way, I've ordered two copies of my Nirvana Energy 174 (bargain even at the increased price!), which will hopefully be a lifetime supply.   And I've started to avoid riding my current one on soft snow.    If we can't get Titanal, I'll be grateful that Sean @ Donek has continued to develop glass boards.  

 

Out of curiosity. what does Kessler use?  .3?  .4?  Something else?  

[mr_roboteye]

Has anyone considered cold rolling a sheet of .4mm down to .3mm?

 

I have no idea if it would affect the surface treatment that aids in the bonding process but it might be worth a test to see if it's a viable workaround.