Carving & Cycling

[John E]

The other sport that I participate in is cycling - both road & mountain. 

 

It occurred to me recently that carving a curve on a road bike & carving on snow are quite similar. This lead me to think that I may have discovered one of my problems. 

 

When I corner on my road bike, I really have no idea where the limit is. I really don't want to find out so I think that I am staying far away from it. The consequences of crossing that limit on a bike are pretty severe: loss of traction, sliding, road rash, guard rails, emergency rooms, etc. 

 

Since I have been riding a bike much longer than I have been carving, I'm wondering if I am unconciously applying the same fear of the limit to my carving: staying far away from the limit. However, the consequences of exceeding the limit while carving could be much less than on a bike. In the most forgiving situation, your edge looses grip & you slide out. If there is just smooth open slope on the outside of the turn (no people, no trees, etc.) you just slide until you stop & then recover. 

 

If this is true, this may be why I cannot get anywhere near as low as I see other riders get. I'm afraid of sliding out. This may be an unwarranted fear. Also, I see a lot of riders much better than me put a hand down on the inside of the carve. The best riders I know don't do this. I've tried to emulate them but now I think I need to put a hand down as a safety stop and explore the limit. 

 

So, as I take up riding this season, maybe I need to get out on a wide-open slope and take the risk of putting a hand down & sliding out.

 

Other thoughts?

[xacta168]

I have had the same issue not being able to lay the board down far enough to carve.

Greg

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[xy9ine]

yeah, i find similarities in aggressive cornering on a mountain bike - ie, the bike squats into the apex of the turn & the tires bite as you aggressively load them, affording surprising traction & lean angle, then you're popped out of the turn as the suspension unloads - sometimes airing out, depending on the dynamics of the turn. similar with riding sport bikes. the load / pull g's / weightless release of cornering is rad, regardless of the vehicle.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hi John. I would advise against deliberately putting a hand down, that tends to make you lean the wrong way and screw up your angulation. Let the snow come to you. I don't get very low compared to some but I find I get my lowest when I get on the edge early in the turn, not when I am deliberately trying to get low.

[Corey]

I struggled with that barrier too.  Most people do in any traction-limited sport.  

 

All I can advise is pushing your personal limits to the point that you fall.  After a few you realize that sliding out isn't that bad.  Lay into a few carves further than you feel comfortable, with the goal to end up sliding on your hip or stomach.  

 

I remember the first time I over-committed to a toeside turn and the board hooked and stood me up at the end - I bet you could see my smile through my facemask!  

 

In my friend Darcy's words: "Pin it, you fairy!"  Wise words for stretching your limits.  

 

Adding to what Neil said; drag your rear knee on the snow in toesides, and your lead hip in the snow for heelsides.  Keep those hands up high and level.  

[BlueB]

I have had the same issue not being able to lay the board down far enough to carve.

Greg

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Greg, a snowboard will carve as soon as you put it on the edge and pressure is evenly distributed allong the edge. It doesn't have to be inclined very high. However, greater the angle, tighter the turn radius.

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Edited November 11, 2015 by BlueB

[west carven]

howdy John E

there is nothing wrong with putting your hands down. sometimes i will put my hand down and press down

so i can pivot (carve) the board faster. push your limit till you fall so you understand how far you can go.

remember your weight should always be on your edge. your weight should never be on hands.

[Beckmann AG]

It occurred to me recently that carving a curve on a road bike & carving on snow are quite similar.

 

They certainly can be, and there are more and less effective ways to 'arc a turn' on both.

 

 

When I corner on my road bike, I really have no idea where the limit is. I really don't want to find out so I think that I am staying far away from it. The consequences of crossing that limit on a bike are pretty severe: loss of traction, sliding, road rash, guard rails, emergency rooms, etc.

 

Have you actually stacked it in on your bike, or are you merely concerned about the 'what if'?  Crashing your bike doesn't guarantee intense property damage or being serum-glued to your sheets on a nightly basis. I've gone down hard several times, and for the most part the apprehension was worse than the outcome.

 

(start @3:00)

 

 

 

Since I have been riding a bike much longer than I have been carving, I'm wondering if I am unconciously applying the same fear of the limit to my carving: staying far away from the limit. However, the consequences of exceeding the limit while carving could be much less than on a bike. In the most forgiving situation, your edge looses grip & you slide out. If there is just smooth open slope on the outside of the turn (no people, no trees, etc.) you just slide until you stop & then recover.

 

Fear is a wonderful rationale for lack of progression.  E.g., when a client can't or won't execute the prescribed drill or task, the standard Ski Pro rationale is that 'they were afraid to try'.  

Typically, the client was asked to do the wrong thing at the wrong time with the wrong body part for the wrong reason.

Granted, respect for that churning in your gut can keep you safe to ride another day, but the usual cause of halted progress is simply going about the task in a manner not appropriate.

Or if you prefer, in a way that requires too much precision for a given level of skill development.

 

Here's a determining question:

To create  lean angle on your bicycle, do you first move your body to the inside in anticipation of the turn, and then tilt the frame of the bike?  Or do you roll the contact points between tires and pavement out from under your center of mass, so that the lean angle develops along with the turn?

 

If the former, there's your problem on the board.  While this method can work on a bike, it's not optimal on a board, primarily because one turn is almost always preceded by another in the opposite direction, and it's really hard to get the timing right when trying to move that much mass around.  Cornering on a bike, by comparison, is usually a one-off, unless your threading a chicane, in which case you'd use the latter method.

 

And there's a pretty small window of opportunity. That window is larger when moving slower, but then it's harder to balance without tipping over, which is why angulating to create an increase of edge angle at slow speed is so effective.  The difficulty though, is that anything you move to the inside of one turn needs to be moved back out at an appropriate rate in order to make the next.  And that creates timing issues.

 

Come in too late, and you'll tend to 'high side' on account of too much momentum.

Come in too soon and too fast, and you'll tip over to the inside of the turn due to insufficient momentum.

Hold on too long, and you can't get out in time and the turn stalls.

Etc.

 

Also, angulation per se, is often misunderstood.  You can angulate both effectively, and poorly. The definition of the term doesn't exactly clarify the difference.

 

So, you might be a wussy-pie, and mis-applied technique might be a part of that.  Alternately, you may have run out of things to try, and fear is the only conceivable name for your plateau.

 

Figure out how to do a controlled two-wheel drift sideways on gravel with your bike and you'll feel better.  

And braver.

(Hint:It's not that difficult).

Edited November 11, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[philw]

I have had that problem with "limits" in other sports too - climbing, for example. I tend to be conservative where death is concerned, but for boards and bikes less so.

 

With a standard road bike, for me it's about the chance of putting a pedal down if I'm under power. I'm less bothered with free-wheeling downhill as I feel that I lean to give me the turn I need. My effect and cause are that way around, if you see what I mean.

 

That's also true for me and snowboards - I don't "dive for the snow", which I think looks odd as a style and will cause problems with the mechanics if you're not careful. However if that's the style you want, then people have developed approaches to dealing with the mechanics of it.

 

My current road bike is a track bike, and that's a different kettle of fish when cornering on the road - shorter cranks, but no way to avoid putting a pedal down at all, and frightening steering which behaves on the road like it wants to dive right into the corner (causing a front-wheel break-away, been there, done that).

 

I don't think you'd be risking your hands/ wrists on snow as you'd of course not be reaching out with those ;-)

[andiss]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RxXqQqAc2pA

[John E]

Thanks for the Cancellara video. I'm certain that he corners more aggressively than I do. Also, the analogy to road motorcycles may be apt. Obviously cars do controlled oversteer all the time. I think road racing motorcycles do as well (correct?). However, I don't think that I have seen a road bicycle do a controlled oversteer. It seems to me that when a 23mm tire loses grip, it does so pretty immediately and in an uncontrolled manner. 

 

Also, I think the whole point of carving is to avoid oversteer. Most soft boot boarders (and skiers) oversteer as a lifestyle.

 

The other tips are welcome as well. I think that I just need to find my limits and not be afraid to exceed the limit. Under the right conditions, the consequeces aren't that severe.  

[Corey]

Also, I think the whole point of carving is to avoid oversteer. Most soft boot boarders (and skiers) oversteer as a lifestyle.

 

You know you're charging hard when you can't just lay down a pencil line in the snow.  There's a fuzzy line where the board can't quite support the load you put into it and starts scratching a wider line.  That feels very similar to a car tire 'slithering' at a happy slip angle to me.  Add much more speed or tighten the radius, and it breaks into a big slide.  Note the EC riders that usually leave a pretty wide trench.  This burns a lot of speed too as it takes a lot of energy to displace that much snow.  

 

i think it's really useful to know that line and to be able to dance on either side of it at will.  If it's a long gentle slope, I aim for a pencil line.  If it's steep, I'll mix in a tiny bit of sliding for max G-force as I know I'll get all that speed back in a hurry.  

 

I've had that grip-slip transition feeling on a mountain bike on loose surfaces before, but haven't had the courage to do that on a road bike.  

[slopestar]

[quote name="corey_dyck" post="429467" timestamp="1447201434

I remember the first time I over-committed to a toeside turn and the board hooked and stood me up at the end - I bet you could see my smile through my facemask!

I remember doing the same once. Going from my cheek at snow level to nothing but weightlessness and blue sky in my field of vision with a body jarring smash of my shoulder blades connecting with the snow followed by gasping for air.... Push your limits or you will never find them

[John E]

 

Here's a determining question:

To create  lean angle on your bicycle, do you first move your body to the inside in anticipation of the turn, and then tilt the frame of the bike?  Or do you roll the contact points between tires and pavement out from under your center of mass, so that the lean angle develops along with the turn?

 

If the former, there's your problem on the board.  While this method can work on a bike, it's not optimal on a board, primarily because one turn is almost always preceded by another in the opposite direction, and it's really hard to get the timing right when trying to move that much mass around.  Cornering on a bike, by comparison, is usually a one-off, unless your threading a chicane, in which case you'd use the latter method.

 

And there's a pretty small window of opportunity. That window is larger when moving slower, but then it's harder to balance without tipping over, which is why angulating to create an increase of edge angle at slow speed is so effective.  The difficulty though, is that anything you move to the inside of one turn needs to be moved back out at an appropriate rate in order to make the next.  And that creates timing issues.

 

Come in too late, and you'll tend to 'high side' on account of too much momentum.

Come in too soon and too fast, and you'll tip over to the inside of the turn due to insufficient momentum.

Hold on too long, and you can't get out in time and the turn stalls.

Etc.

 

So - Beckmann - When I ride a road bike, I think that as I go through a turn, the midplane of my body remains somewhat co-planar to the midplane of the bike (I lean into the curve). When I have tried cornering on a motorcycle (scooter really) I find that my body stays relatively upright and I tip the bike beneath me. The feeling is quite different. I haven't tried cornering a bicycle this way. Seems like it wouldn't work very well. Not sure why there is  a difference. Maybe because on a bicycle, my mass far exceeds that of the bike. On a scooter, the mass of the scooter far exceeds mine (?). If I try to apply this to carving a board, my inertia about the roll axis far exceeds that of the board. 

[kieran]

I've had that grip-slip transition feeling on a mountain bike on loose surfaces before, but haven't had the courage to do that on a road bike.  

wet road, wet leaves .. squeaky bum. don't do it in traffic where people can see your expression. ;)

[Beckmann AG]

So - Beckmann - When I ride a road bike, I think that as I go through a turn, the midplane of my body remains somewhat co-planar to the midplane of the bike (I lean into the curve). When I have tried cornering on a motorcycle (scooter really) I find that my body stays relatively upright and I tip the bike beneath me. The feeling is quite different. I haven't tried cornering a bicycle this way. Seems like it wouldn't work very well. Not sure why there is  a difference. Maybe because on a bicycle, my mass far exceeds that of the bike. On a scooter, the mass of the scooter far exceeds mine (?). If I try to apply this to carving a board, my inertia about the roll axis far exceeds that of the board.

 

Odds are good you have cornered on  your bike as you do on the scooter.  It probably won't feel that way though, unless you are taking great pains to replicate the inputs from one platform to the other.

The bike has very little mass, and the wheels don't generate much of a rotational moment, thus the effective inputs are very slight.

On the scooter, you have a heavier chassis, and at least three inertial moments in the form of the wheels and the rotating mass of the engine.

Combined, these moments tend to keep the scooter 'upright', both a stabilizer, and a counter to erratic steering inputs.

In order to lean the scooter, (past say, walking speed) you need to 'counter steer' the front end, effectively rolling the bottom out from under the top, so to speak.

If you counter steer on gravel, the bike may drift, but the steering input is still present.  This means the rider/bike system is still seeking an arced path, regardless of traction. So you probably won't go down until the system dissipates all momentum.

 If you simply lean without counter steering, you either hit your line or you don't. It's more of a 'one shot' game.

 

There are two distinct means of doing this on a board.  One is through articulation of the ankle joint (which is remarkably similar to the steering axis on a bike/moto/scooter. and the other is to rotate the upper body mass as in EC. 

The former is usually not an option, for a number of reasons related to boot fit/materials and gear configuration. The latter is simply a matter of timing, an 'anchor' from which to initiate rotation, and some 'give' in the boot/binding interface. It's a lot easier to add give below the sole of the boot than to restore what's been compromised inside the boot.

 

The vast majority of recreational skiers/riders 'oversteer' (as you say) or rotate the front end of their slidey things into the turn as they usually have no other option, and the teaching models of the day are woefully ignorant of 'how things can work'. Thus the status quo is preserved.

[ursle]

You know you're charging hard when you can't just lay down a pencil line in the snow.  There's a fuzzy line where the board can't quite support the load you put into it and starts scratching a wider line.  That feels very similar to a car tire 'slithering' at a happy slip angle to me.  Add much more speed or tighten the radius, and it breaks into a big slide.  Note the EC riders that usually leave a pretty wide trench.  This burns a lot of speed too as it takes a lot of energy to displace that much snow.  

 

i think it's really useful to know that line and to be able to dance on either side of it at will.  If it's a long gentle slope, I aim for a pencil line.  If it's steep, I'll mix in a tiny bit of sliding for max G-force as I know I'll get all that speed back in a hurry.  

 

I've had that grip-slip transition feeling on a mountain bike on loose surfaces before, but haven't had the courage to do that on a road bike.  

Ah, I feel you.

Started carving skis after reading Warren Witherell's book "how the racers ski", what got my apt attention was his describing a carve as a car with all four wheels hooked up going around a turn, vs, a car sliding or skidding,  and his apt description of being able to close his eyes and listen to his students ski, he knew who was where by their slides.

So a pencil line is good, especially on hard snow, and skidding is good for stopping.

If the east had a plethora of soft conditions but cold snow carving might go away. 

Not that sliding isn't fun on slush.

[ursle]

I see I can't edit that post...

I am familiar with sliding a road bicycle, at speed, in the rain, often, to avoid solid objects.

Don't mt bike but am very used to sliding a horse tru tight spaces at speed also;)

[west carven]

howdy John E

Carving & Cycling are two different things, even trying to exercising for carving is not

going be as useful as getting on snow and riding. go for it and find your limit. it's board

and body manipulation. the only way to get good is to push it, push it real good!