Anyone bend bails for better fit?

[teach]

I have some older Catek bindings and the heel bails would fit my boots better if they had a tighter curve where they wrap around the heel. I thought it might be possible to just put them in a vise and crank down a bit. Anyone do something like this, or is it a bad idea?

 

Also, some of the bails are welded where the ends meet and others are not. Is there much reason to consider welding the the ones that aren't?

[Mr.E]

The welds stiffen them up a hair, but end up popping with use. I believe the unwelded versions are later.

People have done all sorts of mods. Remember that squishing changes how the shoulder end line up (the welded part). Some folks made bumpers to take up some of the space (rubber hose, tape wraps, etc). Someone welded in shoulders, but I don't like what that could do to the bail.

[Beckmann AG]

You probably don't want to crimp those in a vise.  While it may work, you do run the risk of affecting those parts of the bail that have already been, for lack of a better descriptive, 'work hardened' by the initial bending process.

 

Better off to just make yourself a bending fixture and craft a new set to your specs. :)

 

Looks like the toe bails of the WC and OS series are welded, whereas the heel loops are not.  Presumably, the greater length of the toe bails presents the opportunity for the bail to spread, to the point where it might (under extreme shock load) escape the toe block?

[yooperluke]

I've bent them a couple times when they tear out of the binding and send me cartwheeling!

[Mr.E]

You have managed to tear Catek bails out of the toe or heel blocks?

[Bobby Buggs]

Simple and safest solution, Get rid of them

[yooperluke]

yeah, no, other bails, and I am going to refrain from saying which.  The vendor has been more than compatible replacing them. I just wish they would replace an aluminum part with stainless. Would solve the problem with a few grams of added weight. Well worth the trade!

[yooperluke]

ps, I don't know what happened to Catek, but I got taken for $80.00 and never seen the parts or the money. You couldn't give me a pair of them.

[lowrider]

If attempting to alter the bails make  sure you don't score (scratch) them aluminum or brass jaws in your vice will protect them from damage. Any crease or scratch could lead to stress cracks or full failure. If you require any spares I have lightly used Catek toe and heel bails.

[yooperluke]

I have to disagree, if the bails are stainless steel, you can pound the crap out of them with anything as long as you don't kink them. That is another issue. A dent/ not crack, in the bail isn't going to set you up for catastrophic failure. Boys, the bail is threaded into an aluminum fitting. The weakest link in any scenario is comprised of the weakest materials. Hence, pivot point. I have pics to prove it.... bent bails and ripped out aluminum threads. The stainless bail didn't fail, the crap it was threaded into pulled out. The threads in the aluminum failed from carving. Couple toe side cartwheels later.. twice... aluminum bail mounts suck!!!! twist the stainless all you want. Don't kink it, and you will be fine.

[KingCrimson]

Don't go messing with bail geometry...Plate bindings can fail in so many ways, I don't know why anyone would risk tinkering with the closure mechanism.

 

I had my raceplate heel bails all shimmed with electrical tape to take some lateral play out with ski boots, it worked well. 

 

FWIW, when I broke a TD2 the shoulders and bail held up fine, but the shoulder bolt snapped off about one thread into the block. 

[Mr.E]

The Catek bails are not threaded- they are bent and fit into milled channels on the bottom of the toe and heel blocks.

 

 

You might have a legit gripe with a binding, but it sounds like you are conflating product critiques?

[Beckmann AG]

Teach,

Will check this later today, but I think the OS series bails are narrower than the WC (?), so that might be an option if the latter toe and heel pads aren't drastically wider than the former.

 

On the other hand, get with the times and ride fantastic flexy plastic.  Shame on you for thinking otherwise.

I'll dispose of your nasty metal clamps properly if you send them along. :)

 

 

 

Regarding breakage,  broke a TD heel bail after 18 seasons of near-daily use.  

 

Aluminum bits were/are just fine.

 

Operator/maintenance error v. design/material fail?

[lowrider]

Agree with  Mr.  E. about your product critique wooperboy.   Catek bails are if nothing else burley. It might be a happy coincidence that in designing the heel bale and not welding the ends together it allows the bail to stand up to allow your boot heel easy access. In your attemps to alter the radius on the heel bail. you might want to pay attention to the final alignment of the ends. (slightly offset ) so they will stand up in the heel blocks.

[teach]

Thanks for the input. In case some were thinking I'm proposing anything barbaric, here are some photos to explain.

 

My idea is to put the bail in a vise, with plywood facing on the jaws, and crank down to compress the heel hoop at the ends, expecting it to bend a little toward the middle. I think that would cause the ends to be a little more skewed to each other (if anything). I'm only after maybe 1/4" less width. Only semi-barbaric?

 

Mr. E., those bails look like what I'm after. What Cateks are they from?

 

I was a little worried about the points Beckmann and Lowrider brought up. Are the bails heat-treated in some way after bending to relieve stresses? Are they stainless steel, or spring steel, or something else? Yooperboy, hammering is a type of cold-working, as are bending and drawing, which should make the material more brittle, if I understand.

 

King Crimson, do you mean the process of altering the bail geometry will cause problems (as Beckmann and Lowrider are warning) or that a different bail geometry is likely to increase failures? I've seen many shapes of heel bails... how would a slightly narrower hoop be less safe?

 

 

I had my raceplate heel bails all shimmed with electrical tape to take some lateral play out with ski boots, it worked well.

KC, Are you suggesting this as an alternate fix? You taped the sides of the bail, or the hoop? Do you have a picture?

 

Lowrider, if you no longer have use for the bails, I'm definitely interested. But I wouldn't want to deplete your stash of spares if you still use Cateks.

 

Looking at the photos makes me think I'm worrying too much. When looking at the heel bails while clipping in it looked worse. But looking from these angles shows that there's more of the heel getting grabbed than I thought.

 

 

Get rid of them

 

The bails? Maybe so. How often do people feel it's safe to go on a heel bail? Beckmann, did you use the same heel bail on the TDs or did you replace them according to some schedule?

 

 

Thanks!

[Mr.E]

I'd leave them alone- looks like you are getting good purchase.

[Beckmann AG]

Kinda what hE ^ said.

 

You could give them a crimp, but that action will likely lead to fit problems further down the bail.  Putting a bend in the middle of something already formed tends to move the far ends around in ways unintended.

 

Sooner or later the bails will deform the heel shelf, and that added groove on each side will resolve any notion of bail creep.

 

The bails in the photos look like WC bails on the OS platform.  The OS bail (at least what I have here) is slightly narrower, with one less curve at the outer edge.

 

I use the CATEK bail on the CATEK, and The TD bail on the TD.  Although I have a pair that takes a modified TD top half on the CATEK base disc.

 

Used to get 30 days out of the original Burton Race Plate bails (4mm?), then around 90 on the 2nd generation (5mm?).  And as stated above, one bail failure on the TD series over many, many seasons.

Some of the breakage had to do with ignorant riding practice.

 

My point previous is that if the binding and bail are 'loaded' as intended, there should not be much of a problem with durability. 

 

Ride through the soles of your feet, and parts will last longer.  Twisting and grinding against the boot cuffs will eventually stress components to the point of failure.

 

KC may be suggesting that all equipment designers are smarter than you, so you had better leave well enough alone.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[dingbat]

Show us a view directly from the side. That may be a toe bail from a step-in installed on the wrong end.... or something like that. Just looks funny to me the way it levers up off the heel in the back.

Edited January 18, 2015 by dingbat

[KingCrimson]

 

 

KC may be suggesting that all equipment designers are smarter than you, so you had better leave well enough alone.

You are capable of much better commentary. 

 

Given that many snowboarders (regardless of how early they started) aren't even yet eligible for Medicare, we have very young, underdeveloped data on much of our equipment, and I feel that there is very little authority on what are "safe" modifications on hardboot bindings. However, there are factory bail profiles that reliably retain everything from park ski to AT boots and every alpine specific hardboot.

 

Sidewinders are cheaper than orthopedic surgery, look awesome, and will greatly improve your riding experience over any generation of Cateks. 

 

Teach- I don't have pictures of my taping setup. It's also specific to what kind of boot you want to use. If you feel that there is a particular point in your boot-binding interface that is sloppy, you can certainly try taping it up and see if it improves. I would never modify any load bearing components beyond shimming though. Beyond that, getting hurt sucks really fucking badly. I appreciate the drive to tinker, but it's not worth it. Again, there is little to no empirical data to demonstrate that modifying a factory binding is safe or improves its function. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by KingCrimson

[lowrider]

Catet stepin toe bail has a radius that almost fits the outside radius of the non stepin Catek ( toe* ) bail.  ** Should have printed " heel bail ". Stepin toebail has larger radius than non step in heel bail. Testing the SI toe bail on my Track 700's it fits both heel and toe of boot with excellent coverage around the full radius of the bail.  From your picture it looks like the heel bail shelf of the boot heel is quite flat (straight) ie; not as round as earlier models of boots. As long as you have good contact depth of bail on the outer edges of heel of your boot I don't think your risking anything by riding what you have.                                                                                          

Edited January 19, 2015 by lowrider

[Beckmann AG]

You are capable of much better commentary. 

 The words follow the need. 

 

Obviously, CATEK and/or associates 'tinkered-with' the shape of their heel bails between the WC and OS series.

Possibly for reasons of safety/performance.  Most likely as a means to reduce manufacturing cost.

 

Care to offer conjecture as to which?

 

 

 there is little to no empirical data to demonstrate that modifying a factory binding is safe or improves its function.

 

In this case, objective study trumps empirical data.

[teach]

 

Show us a view directly from the side. That may be a toe bail from a step-in installed on the wrong end.... or something like that. Just looks funny to me the way it levers up off the heel in the back.

 

 

Testing the SI toe bail on my Track 700's it fits both heel and toe of boot with excellent coverage around the full radius of the bail

The bail pictured would not work as a toe bail for my boots -- too narrow. But the same is true for some TD3 toe bails, so I admit this isn't conclusive.

 

From your picture it looks like the heel bail shelf of the boot heel is quite flat (straight) ie; not as round as earlier models of boots

 

I dragged out the Deeluxe Indys I used before I switched to UPZ and it's the same fit. Part of the issue is the heel height (I think that's what Dingbat is pointing to) making the angle of the heel hoop not quite horizontal. I tried some ski boots and that seems to be what the bail was meant for: with the lower heel, the hoop is horizontal. Still a larger than necessary radius, though.

 

It didn't occur to me when I posted to mention that the green boots are new -- first use at the very end of last season. So Beckmann's point about the ledge deforming goes double, I suppose. There is good contact and no slop when clamped in (I'm using fairly high tension -- one-handed closing is possible but not easy).

 

KC, I have a pair of Sidewinders and they work great. I don't want to use them at higher angles, though. On the other hand, I find higher angles easier on my knees. 

 

Reading through alpinecarving.com and Catek's site (it's still there, even the 2002-2003 site introducing the Olympics) I saw mention of change in bail fit. These OS1s are the first generation, with the 12 mm kingpin and the 5 mm donut ring, just like the WC. So it's possible they came with other WC hardware as well.

 

Thanks to everyone for the help!

[dingbat]

catek-bail-4.jpeg

 

 

I've got a pair of OS1 stepins sitting on the shelf in my office. That is exactly what they look like when I slide the heel of my UPZs into the toe bails. Maybe it's the same bail for both applications? Maybe not?