Outrigger arm

[John E]

In your carving style: Do you reach out with your arm like an outrigger?

If so, have you ever injured your fingers, wrist, elbow or shoulder? Injured badly or just a light sprain?

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I'm always disappointed by how much I tend to touch the snow with my trailing hand during toesides. I don't notice it when riding hardpack since my hand will slide on the surface. When the snow is mushy, soft, or new, my hand will sometimes plant in and stick. One day my entire arm will get ripped off.

[Dan]

Yes! I tend to "pet the dog". It's a bad habit / a balance cheat and I want to work on it this season. I've never hurt myself badly, but have definitely had some tweaks and minor sprains from this...once when I put my hand in a massive trench cut by another carver during NICE. Usually it's wrist tweaks, but definitely the potential is there to screw up your shoulder or rip your whole arm off if you're particularly unlucky ;-)

[Bobby Buggs]

I am constantly yelling at my self early in the season to stop touching the snow. Yes you can really mess up your Sht hitting stuff especially some of the ice coast famous groomer cookies

[dingbat]

I love to touch the snow.

I love it.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I love to touch the snow.

I love it.

Brings back some memories, graduated HS in 75'

10 years later I was taking my queues from those preaching "don't pat the dog" , riding in ski boots and living the life!

I see the draw and when conditions are ideal I think it is allot of fun to get low. EC has brought alpine full circle and raised the bar for those so inclined.

Just a reminder to those brought to alpine specifically to EC, look at conditions and remember there is a cost for touching the snow.

I like the analogy given to me by an avid track bike rider. Don't put the knee down on the asphalt, ride hard enough, well enough that the asphalt comes to your knee.

I see allot of reaching, this attempt to touch the snow typically results in poor alignment and away from the beauty of the turn. Video is your friend, get some.

Edited October 30, 2013 by www.oldsnowboards.com

[utahcarver]

In your carving style: Do you reach out with your arm like an outrigger?

If so, have you ever injured your fingers, wrist, elbow or shoulder? Injured badly or just a light sprain?

My shoulders have already been through years of doing 'Berts' while skateboarding so it came as no shock when the doctor told me I had torn my rotator cuff. The injury occurred when I planted my left hand at speed and it stuck. The shoulder followed through the turn and ruptured at the only place it could. After a year of sleepless nights awakening to a dull ache in my shoulder I had it repaired several years back. Luckily, I've been able to continue to ride for several seasons but, I am VERY protective of this shoulder and I have augered in many times because I won't put my hand on the snow. Now, I faceplant or get the wind knocked out of me. It doesn't happen often but, it happens at least once a season. The key is angulation of the body rather than inclination of it. Don't reach for the snow, push your knees toward the snow and roll your ankles downward toward the edges of your board, to echo Bryan's point above. It's your legs and lower body which carve. Your upper body should be quiet and focused on the turn.

When you do get the occasional sprain in your fingers or thumb, tape is the best cure unless you really have done some nerve damage. See a surgeon, not a doctor, someone who can really help you keep from losing feeling in those phalanges. Wrists: don't wear wrist guards unless you like the idea of your arm breaking further back along the radius and/or ulna. At least with the wrist you may be more guarded against a compound fracture. The wrist is what supports your hand and is a terminus for the radius and ulna. It does not carve. It sure looks cool on Velvet vids while extremecarving but, the wrist is not the star of the show, it's more like an extra on the set, to use a movie metaphor. It never gets the spotlight, until you put it in the snow at speed. Then it is the hero, the Man, until it grabs the snow and your arm keeps going. Bye-bye. C'ya later, alligator. In a while, crocodile. Game over.

I guess getting older does have it's perks: the gift of time learning what NOT to do while enjoying what TO DO. Oh, BTW, if your 'outrigger arm' is trailing in your turn, you need to review the basics of a turn featured here on BOL. It'll save you hours of time in the ER. That arm should not be trailing, IMO. Maybe on really soft days and your risk of injury is greatly diminished but, not on solid days. OK, take a chance and put your hand in the snow and see what you get. Hero or zero?

Mark

Edited October 30, 2013 by utahcarver
Oldsnowboards reply above

[tufty]

ride hard enough, well enough that the asphalt comes to your knee.

Don't reach for the snow, push your knees toward the snow and roll your ankles downward toward the edges of your board

I think of it as avoiding the snow. Doing the mental (and, to an extent, physical) opposite of reaching for the snow, actively avoiding it. If you do that, you reach a point where you simply /can't/ carve any lower, the snow has come up to meet you. Then people come up to you in the lift lines and say things like "how do you do that", "that looks so fluid", "you're beautiful to watch" and so on*

Bryan touched on it when he said

away from the beauty of the turn

And that's it. Reaching for the snow results in unbalance, bending at the waist, "toilet stance", overall ugliness and, of course, busted wrists / fingers / shoulders. Don't do it.

* at which point you will trip over your board and fall over like a spastic, but that's life.

[Corey]

I do it too. You can see it in my avatar. It's like training wheels for carving. Little slips can be caught with a tiny push on the snow, but it's not pleasant if you find something other than smooth hardpack! I caught my lead hand on a heelside turn in a soft bump two years ago - it felt like I was trying to wrap my arm around my back and touch my own navel. It hurt for a few weeks.

Thanks for the reminder, I need to focus on keeping that hand off the snow!

[philw]

In your carving style: Do you reach out with your arm like an outrigger?

The only time I touch the snow is when I'm cutting across something powdery and I notice that the snow is pretty much where my hand is. To do otherwise would be confusing cause and effect, in my humble opinion. {Edit: my avatar here may have a hand drag in it}

Of course lots of people do reach their hand down to drag it - you can buy gloves specifically designed for the purpose, and people on here have talked about specific armour to help do that.

So no, never injured my hands snowboarding, although if you ride Dendix as I did for many years then you tend to learn how to look after your pinkies pretty quickly.

I did wrench my shoulder a little last season because I was holding a GoPro pole whilst inadvertently performing a "rag doll" maneuver down a steep powder field. So there's a new class of injury: GoPro pole shoulder. You crash differently because your arm is very much extended to ride with the pole, and that's a bad thing. So drop the pole fast if you wipe out. Sadly the crash was sufficiently hard the GoPro failed to record the fun, or at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Bobby Buggs]

I actually wore off the palm of my glove on my healside lead hand. In my view due to Poor technique aka cheating by putting weight on that hand and riding on really hard pack. Luckily I have not wrenched my shoulder but I have been spun around a couple times. This can get into the whole style vs technique thing and Im not interested in that bag of worms. To ME its something I want to get away from doing as a crutch, only doing it when I feel like varying my style and the conditions appear safe. One thing I got from hanging with Joerg was to keep that hand/arm in front of you, not out to the side.

[John E]

The reason I ask this is because I am a cautious rider. I don't want to get hurt and I know that this slows my progression.

I watch a lot of other riders - most of them better than me. A lot of these riders put a hand down on the snow on every turn.

The BEST riders almost touch the snow - but not quite. They almost hover above it as though there is a magnetic repulsion between their hand & the snow. I love to watch these riders. I would love to ride like that.

However, I think to progress from where I am to where they are without being willing to touch the snow - at least on occasion - slows my progression.

So, I'm telling myself to just try it. To see what it is like. And then try to find the exact right position between where I am and a full-on outrigger carve. Maybe this will be the season to experiment with it.

I think as utahcarver said above - I need to angulate more - not so much inclination.

[Bobby Buggs]

when you inclinate you actually can tip that shoulder toward the snow, angulation you raise that shoulder and lower the outside shoulder. Im regular foot and My personal trick on toe side to keep from tipping the inside shoulder is to grab my boot cuff with my left hand. That pulls my left shoulder down and makes it hard to drop my my inside hand and tip. The other thing I was taught was open the arm pit on the inside of the turn

[D.T.]

John - reaching is a bad habit that is hard to break. It's great that you don't do it instinctively; I'd definitely not recommend doing it on purpose. It's one thing to tap the snow to catch your balance, it's another thing to actually reach, it's another to be angulated to the point that you are incredibly low and the snow it right there and you don't have to reach to touch.

[Jim]

Guilty

Damaged my middle finger tendon carving heelside on icey conditions last April. Still dealing with it.

[Dan]

In the context of this conversation, I'd love to hear some critiques of this photo from last spring. Looks like a broken bone / rotator cuff injury waiting to happen, doesn't it. I'm thinking I need more angulation, less inclination, what says the collective?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Dan, you are a brave sort :)

Keep in mind that with all the different styles out there in alpine, the reference of the commenter's will become key. What THEY like vs what you want to achieve.

As always you look very solid and styling. Hope to get to make more turns with you this season. NOT ON THE WEEKENDS THOUGH !!! :)

Bryan

[philw]

I don't think you're affecting your balance with your hand much; your stance looks good to me. If it was me that hand would be closer in, but that would not affect your stance much. You're not leaning over to do that, you're just holding your hand further out than the "gunslinger" place.

I think you have/ want your C of G over the edge (taking into account the centripetal force etc etc). You look pretty much in that place to me, so in my opinion that is a solid functional style. Personally I don't like the "shoulders down arse up" (more inclined) style. I suspect you may naturally angulate more for shorter turns/ more bumpy terrain, but it looks sound to me.

[John E]

If you do reach, I'm guessing that having your inside arm trail, that it is bad for form. However, if your hand/arm is reaching out in front, you are much more likely to jamb it.

[dingbat]

[ATTACH]35645[/ATTACH]

All in all, I'd say you've got a nice style. Hard to say for sure about the backpack, and you could definitely get a little braver with your helmet color, but the monochromatic jacket and boots combo with just a hint of a nod toward the techno-gear junkie thrown in by the pack straps is very well done in my opinion.

Nice work.

[Mellow Yellow]

Pet it, pat it, make love to it!!!!! :D

(just watch yer fingers and shoulders ;) )

[dingbat]

See what I'm saying about the helmet color?

A note of caution though; To pull of a bold triad like that with such a contrast, set against the velvety black and white neutrals of the slope and background fabric, will require an above average personality in the wearer.

[Corey]

LOL at dingbat! :D

Dan, you're so close... Focus on getting those shoulders flatter, while the knees/hips get pushed more towards the snow. Think pelvic thrust, with your ribs and pelvis getting really pinched together under your lead hand. Do that a bit more and the snow will come up to meet your hand without effort.

[Puddy Tat]

In the context of this conversation, I'd love to hear some critiques of this photo from last spring. Looks like a broken bone / rotator cuff injury waiting to happen, doesn't it. I'm thinking I need more angulation, less inclination, what says the collective?

[ATTACH]35645[/ATTACH]

You appear to have the same problem I have when my hand touches the snow. I was looking at pictures of myself and everytime I put my hand down my shoulders drop out of parallel with the snow, and my angulation is completely destroyed. This reduces edge pressure and inevitably f's up my turn. The effect is at its worst on toeside turns.

Something I started working on last season after Corey's clinic at NES was just carving without touching the snow. By the end of the season my angulation had much improved and I was railing much harder on much more difficult terrain.

Below are some toeside shots from the last two seasons at NES before I began cleaning this up.

NES 2012 trailing arm waving around "rodeo style" and shoulders have dropped out of parallel. Just putting my hand down makes me essentially reach for the snow.

NES 2013 trailing arm fixed, but the same thing is occurring touching the snow essentially destroys all angulation.

NES 2013. Same comments apply

After focusing on not touching the snow for the remainder of the season I was seeming to suck much less on toeside by the end of the season. BTW note in Mellow Yellow's picture that in spite of being near flat his shoulders are completely parallel to the snow. I've done that on heelsides, but I find any loss of angulation on toeside is much more critical for me.

Dave

Edited October 30, 2013 by Puddy Tat

[Bobby Buggs]

Sorry I dont have anything recent but you can sort of see the opening of the arm pit on the inside of the turn