Helmets

[zoltan]

The current basic idea of helmet protection is to make it thick enough to resist puncture of a certain depth and the shell has to stay together. All the discussion of the helmets ability to absorb shock and resist concussion is the issue. In my opinion to design a helmet that for example can protect the shell of an egg but still scrambles the yoke isn't good enough.

Seriously, are you going to start this nonsense again? Your facts are wrong, your "science" is wrong, and your assumptions are wrong, as has already been made clear in this thread. Do not give blatantly false and bad information on a matter of safety.

[philw]

.. Do not give blatantly false and bad information on a matter of safety.

That's bogus: you can't win an argument by claiming the other guys is wrong because it's "blatantly obvious", or that it's "safety related. I think you lose at that point irrespective of everything else. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you lost the argument through being forced to resort to higher authority and a bunch of other fallacious logic I'm too drunk to disassemble for you.

[zoltan]

That's bogus: you can't win an argument by claiming the other guys is wrong because it's "blatantly obvious", or that it's "safety related. I think you lose at that point irrespective of everything else. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you lost the argument through being forced to resort to higher authority and a bunch of other fallacious logic I'm too drunk to disassemble for you.

Think what you want. Lowrider's argument had already been picked apart in this thread, and he's demonstrated he really doesn't understand how helmets work, only to it surface yet again. Normally I don't care if someone's giving bad information, but I will speak up when it's about safety.

[Corey]

Neither side will ever convince the other that wearing/not wearing a helmet is the right thing to do. But I don't like misinformation:

The current basic idea of helmet protection is to make it thick enough to resist puncture of a certain depth and the shell has to stay together.

There is a penetration test, but you're forgetting that there are three anvil tests that all have to be passed as well: flat, hemispherical, and edge. It's not just a penetration test or a piece of thick and rigid plastic would easily pass. Snell S-98 standard: http://www.smf.org/standards/ski/s98std

These standards certainly sound like a very reasonable start to me. The 300G peak acceleration sounds pretty high, but requiring lower peak G's and the same energy absorption would mean big bobblehead helmets that no one would wear. Better to protect most of the people in some of the collisions than very few in most of the collisions. Just like in your car, a full race seat/harness/helmet/HANS-type device would be safer than your standard stock 3-point belt - but some people still don't wear the 3-point belts because of the 'inconvenience'.

Don't forget that hockey and baseball helmets are meant to prevent point loading from a ball/puck travelling at pretty high speeds into a basically stationary head. Ski/bike/race helmets are meant to slow down a quick-moving head as gently as possible once they've struck something stationary. VERY different loading patterns and energy absorption characteristics.

Finally, try to find a motorcycle helmet that isn't foam. Even the $1000+ ones use foam as the energy absorbing material.

[Pat Donnelly]

Taken from POC's site http://www.pocsports.com/poclab/index.asp

The POC Lab is our scientific forum. It brings together experts who provide us with invaluable assistance in ensuring that we develop the most relevant, reliable and advanced protective products on the market today.

The POC Lab enables a close and rewarding collaboration with some of the world’s foremost sports medicine experts, back specialists and brain scientists.

As a complement to the POC Lab, we also seek help from materials technologists – and from people such as you who make avid use of our protective gear in practice, ranging from proficient X-game riders to the elite at the World Cup level.

One of the major issues that concern the members of the POC lab is the rapid evo-lution of skiing. The speeds are increasing, drops and jumps are higher and playing around in parks, with jumps, banks, and grinders are available to most. Downhill racing, Skier X, or moguls are also disciplines where the limits are being tested.

The whole scenario is actually a bit freightening. With this pace, we are likely to experience an increased number of serious accidents in the coming years. Therefore, it is important to underline that protection can’t guarantee your safety. What it can do is reduce the risk of being injured. The most vital ingredient to avoid injuries is you. Skill and good common sense are the assets that need to be prioritized.

Members of the POC Lab are carefully selected for their unique expertise. Each member shares POC’s mission to save lives and reduce the severity of injuries resulting from accidents.

[Emdee406]

Next season when I take to the SBX course, I'll be wearing one of these...

http://m.competitivecyclist.com/product-apparel/2011-poc-cortex-dh-helmet-7301.10.1.html

Sounds like one of the safest out there. I'll be using a standard POC for Alpine riding and my lightweight Smith for low level teaching.

Done.I'm old and forgetful now, don't want to make it any worse.

[lowrider]

Emdee406 Thanks for the link. Shear zone between helmet and shell sounds good. One more piece in the puzzle. :biggthumpto POC

[John Gilmour]

First off, let me first preface this by saying that I've been snowboarding since before there were high back snowboard bindings. And until this year I never wore a helmet. Perhaps somehow unusual, or just lucky, but in the hundreds of wipeouts I've had if not thousands of snowboard wipeouts I have never hit my head, and for that matter in any sport.

Of course, protecting my head.. it's the number one thing I worry about whenever I have a wipeout, so I tend to sacrifice just about anything to protect my head. A head has about the same consistency as a watermelon- just a bit tougher.

That being said, I have a lot more awareness of what's going on on the slope when I'm not wearing a helmet as opposed to wearing one. A good deal of that has to do with the swing weight the helmet. Simply put, a heavy helmet slows down the movement of my head what I want to do quick checks visually.

But when someone who cares about you insist that you wear a helmet–I had to make a few careful considerations. First off, what good is a helmet that is designed to help you survive up to a maximum of a 12 mile an hour impact when you are going 45 miles an hour? It will probably help slightly more than not having any helmet whatsoever, but either way the forces will overwhelm the helmet and your skull.

Let's take a look at a video.

As you can see, Scott is traveling with great speed. Bodie Miller was a competitor who went before him, but he entered one of the early turns with little too much speed, and actually skied the fence–something that happens on occasion. Scott decided to try to do him one better, and ended up with way too much speed over the last jump.

What disturbs me, is not the fact that the helmet broke (it is designed to do that to absorb force) , but the fact that the chinstrap did not encircle the entire interior circumference of the helmet–but merely went from the left ear across the chin, and to the right ear... Instead of from the left ear over the top of the head to the right ear and across the chin to the left ear.

As a result, the helmet completely detached from his head, and if he collided with something else while unconscious it could have killed him. Scott was airlifted out immediately and placed in a medically induced coma to reduce brain swelling. He is racing again. Personally I view the strap design as a major design oversight by POC.

That video convinced me that people skiing at those speeds need protective wear suitable for those speeds. No coma for me thank you very much.

So I began a search for lightweight helmets that that met or exceeded Department of Transportation standards DOT standards. There is also a Snell rating. I am talking motorsports ratings...not snow sports ratings.

One helmet that showed promise was the carbon fiber V3 model by Fox racing. It is a motocross helmet. I recently went to a dealer and weighed one. It weighed in at 3.23 pounds, a little too much for my head.

I ended up buying a Troy Lee D3 helmet… which has 1/4 more EPS and more interior padding than the D2. Troy Lee employees told me that since they design Motocross helmets that meet DOT that this particular Helmet would meet DOT impact standards, but would not be eligible for DOT certification because it has many air vents. The Troy Lee weighed 2.34 lbs. In XL size. I am downsizing to a large at 2.2 lbs.

One other helmet that was of interest was a Ferrari Carbon Fiber helmet.

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/carbon-fiber-ferrari-f430-scuderia-helmet/

but alas …too expensive.

The way I look at it… we are traveling not at speeds of slopestyle snowboarders… but more like Boardercross speeds. Soooooo…. what is Shaun Palmers helmet of choice? The New D3. I just got forwarded the new Palmer graphics.. While I like Palmer… its just a bit tooo identifiable for me..and ski patrol.

http://www.btosports.com/p/TROY-LEE-DESIGNS-2012-D3-PALMER-HELMET

So I went with the D3 in black.

http://www.btosports.com/p/TLD11D3CFPINSTRIPE

It is a big helmet though… and I have to say I have gotten more injured this year wearing a helmet than if I had not been wearing one- the first crash of the year was cused by me not being able to check the snow quickly and resulted in a torn calf , soleus, and both ankle sprains, the second crash near the lift line was also caused by inability to check the snow fast enough and partially separated my shoulder.

What tends to happen… is this… if I get tossed off my line,,,and try to recover,,, the helmet shifts a bit and makes it harder for me to see what I need to see in regards to the snow and things around me.. So a wipe out that could have been avoided.. happens. Or in these two cases.. that is what happened.

What is frustrating is that prior to these injuries I was the fastest person on the hill in Aspen, and with the injuries now …I am not… so I have to be a lot more careful… which requires more head checks.., and of course.. the helmet hinders that.

Prior to wearing a helmet, I snowboarded with $1950 headphones (Ultrasone Edition 9 with A Pure Sound V3 cable upgrade). Certainly I wouldn’t want to hit my head and have those go flying and break…and for the last two years at Aspen- they only fell off my head once. And yes..I listen to them FULL BLAST, but I also make sure I have enough lead on everyone else on the hill that no one can catch up with me even if they tuck and go straight down. If anyone could come close (say I see a straightliner pulling up while I am carving across the slope) ... I stop- let them pass, and wait for another large gap where I can get enough of a head start that I don’t have to worry. I also am considering one other helmet for next year.

http://www.airoh.com/helmets/off_road/aviator/shift#more-1

940 grams! But alas no DOT cert… just motorcycle use in countries other than the USA and Japan..

[lowrider]

Shear zone and full wrap over chin strap to prevent shell from falling off your head ,more protection for possible second impact. One more step on the way to a better helmet. Thanks for the info John G. Your statement on matching level of protection to speed is an important one.

[John Gilmour]

[kieran]

friend of mine has the add-on they made for bicycle helmets. cool tech.

i'd settle for a helmet that didnt destroy my peripheral vision.

[John Gilmour]

Is It Built In? Or One Of The External Fragile Types?

[Neil Gendzwill]

i'd settle for a helmet that didnt destroy my peripheral vision.

How does a helmet affect your peripheral vision? There's no difference to me.

[John Gilmour]

The Troy Lee D3 mouthguard sticks out a bit too far and obstructed the view of my feet. I was in an XL shell but could have gone either way.

The D3 shares the same shell for Xl and XXL

and for

M, Lg

and for XS and S

So hopefully going to a large will reduce my problem. The Fox V3 did not have the same issue of blocking my view of my bindings. To see the snow directly under the board I had to move my head down about 20 degrees more than usual..

This was a PITA in pow.

[kieran]

Is It Built In? Or One Of The External Fragile Types?

the external ones.

[kieran]

How does a helmet affect your peripheral vision? There's no difference to me.

well, i suppose it's really the combination of helmet and goggles.

even with my giro remedy though, if i look sideways (with my eyes), the view is obstructed by a few degrees. goggles exacerbate the issue.

[nurse ben]

POC Bug Receptor, Kevlar layer for penetration protection, muli hit liner, solid construction, vents are staggered to prevent being "poked", not that heavy and the breathability is decent. I have used Smith, Leedom, and Giro, not even in the same game.

Crap visor and goggle strap holder, but you can't have everything.

My entire family rides in POCs.