boarderboy Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I swear by my Rx orthotics for everyday use, as well as all athletics - and most especially for hardbooting. This counter conventional wisdom article is interesting, though. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/health/nutrition/18best.html I suspect hardboot snowboarding lies at the extreme end of the continuum as being an "unnatural" act for lower half of the torso. However, at the very least, the points made about footbed-induced muscle atrophy make me wonder about at least a couple hours a day wearing the "five toes" Vibram thingies. (as previously discussed on BOL) Due to long-term, extensive ligament damage of right foot, my left/right feet & ankles are quite different. Left foot bones and muscles, including calves, are much better developed than right now. So like I said, I can't imagine not using some kind of Rx of off-the-shelf support most of the time - except possibly moldable-bed sandals in summer. Any thoughts? BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 No time to read that article at the moment, but I would not ride without my custom footbeds, which are very firm and structural. Going on 13 years now, no issues that I know of. I don't use them for any other activity though. As for asymmetrical body development from carving, I found with glass boards like Madd and Donek, my front leg would get a much bigger work-out. I'm finding metal boards benefit from a much more balanced technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Any thoughts? Certification is no measure of quality. There must be one heck of a lot of lousy footbeds/orthotics in circulation. The doctor of record may have 'learned' more from text and dogma than from practical experience? ...the points made about footbed-induced muscle atrophy make me wonder about at least a couple hours a day wearing the "five toes" Vibram thingies. The benefit of running barefoot has more to do with materials, tactile sensitivity, shoe geometry, and their effect on stride elasticity than on foot support (or lack thereof). Strengthening of the feet is a happy byproduct. Poor conformation will likely lead to injury regardless of conditioning. Particularly if the duration and intensity of the endeavor are 'upped'. I suspect hardboot snowboarding lies at the extreme end of the continuum as being an "unnatural" act for lower half of the torso. Perhaps, if you subject yourself to extensive loading while in an 'unnatural' posture. Otherwise, probably not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I gave the whole article a quick read, if I say something inconsistent, let me know. The article notes that orthotics DO help with pain and injuries, but it is unclear exactly how they help. The article mentions a few studies where athletes each used different orthotics and basically had the same results with the different orthotics. The end of the article basically told me that I need to evolve or start climbing trees (I have high arches). I think the conclusion is that you might be able to just go without orthotics if you build up the muscle areas that are (I guess??) forcing you to rely on orthotics. How you'd do that it doesn't really say. My takeaway: use orthotics if they help, but maybe don't use them constantly? boarderboy, I think you are right about wearing those funky vibram things just as a change of pace. Maybe the key is to constantly change from no support to support to different support? I wear my skate shoes without any orthotics, I run and carve with orthotics, annnnd hike with crappy orthotics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Worthless article. The problem I have is that shoes that "feel good" often cause me knee pain after a few hours standing. When I'm walking it's not a problem, because muscles keep my joints aligned (I'm a "supinator" in the running-shoe parlance), but when I stand eventually I relax those muscles and the joints go out of alignment (foot pronates). Most of what I've read about orthotics ignores this, and so I'm wary of paying big bucks to have a non-problem treated while the actual problem is not addressed. This article just reaffirms my suspicions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 No time to read that article at the moment, but I would not ride without my custom footbeds, which are very firm and structural. Going on 13 years now, no issues that I know of. I don't use them for any other activity though. I'm with Jack. Got about 16 years in a formed custom footbed. Most of that time in good liners too. I WILL NOT go back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'll third Jack. Back in my skiing days I finally coughed up $80 for my first set of molded foot beds. (Heavenly tickets were under $30) My skiing immediately improved by 50%, my boots quit hurting, and my feet were finally warm. NO boots come with good foot beds. Most fitters will tell you they shouldn't come with any. Whether you need custom ones or not depends on your foot. Some people do fine with the off the shelf models. If you have high arches, or pronate, customs will change your life. It's amazing to watch the pronation thing. I put weight on my foot, my ankle rolls inward. I put weight on my footbed, my ankle doesn't move. Pronation is one of the major causes of boot fitting problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 The article notes that orthotics DO help with pain and injuries, but it is unclear exactly how they help. If the mechanism is unclear, then they are simply looking for answers in the wrong place(s). When I'm walking it's not a problem, because muscles keep my joints aligned (I'm a "supinator" in the running-shoe parlance), but when I stand eventually I relax those muscles and the joints go out of alignment (foot pronates). Given that 'supination' and 'pronation' are somewhat mutually exclusive conditions for a given foot/ankle, how did you arrive at this 'diagnosis'? The problem I have is that shoes that "feel good" often cause me knee pain after a few hours standing. Squishy shoes will initially feel comfortable, but the 'cush' will often lead to fatigue and other issues. The geometry of the sole should be matched to the task you are doing while standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 My shoes wear on the outside. Very little wear under the ball of the foot. People say that means I supinate. But that's when I'm walking or doing something other than standing. When I'm standing relaxed, my feet roll inward, the big toe sticks out almost a cm further, the arch flattens out. That's pronation, if I understand correctly. Not saying I do. If I stand this way for more than a short time my knees start to hurt (even swell). I unconsciously "brace" against this by rolling to the outsides of my feet from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My shoes wear on the outside. Very little wear under the ball of the foot. People say that means I supinate. What that really means, is that you bear an inordinate amount of weight on the outside of your foot/feet. And thus the soles wear. It sounds like the medial side of your foot is overly mobile, and thus the 'blade' of the foot bears load to greater effect. When I'm standing relaxed, my feet roll inward, the big toe sticks out almost a cm further, the arch flattens out. That's pronation... The hindfoot follows the forefoot, so if the bones comprising the ankle joint are sufficiently 'loose', that structure will roll inward under load if the forefoot is mobile. Pronation simply describes the direction of ankle roll as inward rather than outward, but does not necessarily ascribe meaning as to why. No surprise your knees hurt. Quality foot support would be a distinct benefit, and may forestall future knee issues.... Of course, you may have trouble finding an appropriate fabricator. Many walking footbeds/orthotics are overly concerned with heel strike, and from the sound of things, that isn't really your problem. Are you able to stand around in your hardboots without complaint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 molded footbeds yes:biggthump orthotics maybe not so much. footbeds support your foot where it is now. orthotics are often corrective and their purpose is to push your foot into an improved position that may make boarding uncomfortable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 molded footbeds yes:biggthumporthotics maybe not so much. Good to hear from you. Hope your season goes well. Cold in Possum Pouch. We've even had some real snow, and - on occasion - our "packed powder" snow reports have been at least somewhat based in reality. I suspect easy-walking, lightweight, foot-bedded AT boots will remain this old boarder's HB solution for the duration. cheers BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dr D and boarderboy -- If orthotics are corrective and make boarding uncomfortable, you need different orthotics for boarding. Unless "corrective" has the same meaning (and is based on the same philosophy) as discipline/corporal punishment? Not my cup of tea. Some of the differences between orthotics for running and for hardbooting come down to the differences between dynamic (parts of the foot moving independently) and static (foot basically fixed, not really since you can still tense your muscles, but little other movement). What's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other. That's why I can walk miles in shoes with almost no knee issues, while standing in them for even 20 minutes causes severe knee irritation. As far as the orthotics article, it does seem to be true that there are lots of different proposed remedies, many based on very old research. However, I can definitely tell when a footbed/shoe is better or worse, so to say it doesn't make a difference is pretty sloppy reasoning. Most shoes I used to be able to wear would have me buckling at the knees in 20 minutes standing in them now. Beckmann AG -- I'll post a reply separately. Thanks for your detailed analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Beckmann AG -- I think I've finally got useable hard boots. I now have Deeluxe Indy size 28, with Intuition Powerwrap liners (they say size 10 on them), and Superfeet Green insoles, cut originally to fit in my size 13 US shoes. I molded the liners per yyzcanuck's instructions exactly. This combination feels good standing around (better than almost any shoes, except for the two I have settled on to give least knee irritation, Reef Smoothy flip-flops and Garmont Eclipse XCR hiking shoes). I rode Sunday and it was a night and day difference; instead of my feet twisting around in oversize boot shells or having my instep/arch get clamped down (causing me to ride in defensive mode, aka skidding) it felt about as natural as my soft boot setup, and with a lot more precision. The only issue is with the forefoot (big toe and little toe jammed from the sides; proper footbed might solve this). Very minor in comparison to what I've been experiencing. With my Reef Smoothys I can stand comfortably for long periods. With my Garmont Eclipse with "ProKinetics" insoles (6 mm lift under first metatarsal head, but a bit mispositioned, needs to come in a bit) I can stand (with some pacing) for maybe 90 minutes; any longer and my knees start to rebel. This was a serious problem before I got knee surgery (caused a fall skateboarding on the way down in a 9 ft bowl, and frequently required me to use handrails to get up stairs after teaching). So it's not just that it might cause problems, it already has. Knee surgery (microfracture to cause growth of fibrocartilage) has improved things somewhat. I guess it's just speculation on my part that the foot issue caused my knee problem. My orthopedist dismissed it. But then he had very little time for thinking over my situation or explaining it, and initially misdiagnosed it as a small tear in the meniscus (based on a brief look at slices of a lowres MRI). When operating he saw the missing cartilage and I guess made an executive decision! I suspect a lot of riders have this type of foot, but don't notice there's a problem until it's too late to prevent damage. Thanks again for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 my orthotics hurt to ride with. The arches are very supportive and in a shoe thats great. In my boots on a board with all the dynamic up and down pressure, They tend to make my arches sore. A low flexible molded arch support is best for board sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Kleh Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I read this article a few days ago. I thought about cutting it out and showing it to Jacques Thomas of Le Feet Lab, but I knew he'd have a stroke. I'm with Jack M. I love my orthotics and whenever I have tried to ride without them, I feel pressure points on the bottoms of my feet. The article does admit that plantar fasciatus is helped by orthotics. That is the condition I first saw Jacques about. I went from limping to riding in the course of two days. I'm sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Teach, If you are so inclined to try and solve your own problems, you could try 'adjusting' the forefoot posting on your Prokinetics. 6mm under the first metatarsal head is about average, and from your description of your feet and knee conditions, you may want to increase that in small increments. Nashua makes two fairly thick duct tapes, models 357, and 557. 557 is slightly elastic and will have a bit of 'give'. Either way, you can layer this to increase your posting. The tape will eventually slide around, but it should give you an indication of whether or not you would benefit from more support in that area. If it hurts, it's wrong. Once you reach a conclusion for your street shoes, use that same modified footbed to check the forefoot fit of your Indys. This will help resolve the question of whether or not additional foot support or shell modification is needed to relieve the 'squeeze'. I guess it's just speculation on my part that the foot issue caused my knee problem. My orthopedist dismissed it. But then he had very little time for thinking over my situation or explaining it, and initially misdiagnosed it as a small tear in the meniscus (based on a brief look at slices of a lowres MRI). When operating he saw the missing cartilage and I guess made an executive decision! Your speculation is not misguided. So if I read this right, the meniscus (lateral?) was not intact. Was the missing cartilage simply 'worn away' or was it somehow deformed? How would you describe the origin (where is the onset first noticeable) and nature of your knee pain? I suspect a lot of riders have this type of foot, but don't notice there's a problem until it's too late to prevent damage. Of the feet I see, the majority are mobile to the medial side, to varying extent. This has a direct bearing on binding splay angle, 'heel lift', knee tracking, funky edge engagement, and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrutton Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I read this article a few days ago. I thought about cutting it out and showing it to Jacques Thomas of Le Feet Lab, but I knew he'd have a stroke. I'm with Jack M. I love my orthotics and whenever I have tried to ride without them, I feel pressure points on the bottoms of my feet. The article does admit that plantar fasciatus is helped by orthotics. That is the condition I first saw Jacques about. I went from limping to riding in the course of two days. I'm sold. I just went to get my UPZ's worked on by Jacques at Le Feet. He installed his own brand Orthontic insoles, and sold me a set of Zipfit cork liners. He also moved my buckles further back on the cuffs, so I could do my boots up tighter. I went from outside pressure on the wide part of my feet to no pressure and a lot more locked in solid feeling in the store. First day on them is today. The new liners have a good deal more material in them which helped out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 First day on them is today. The new liners have a good deal more material in them which helped out Today, 03/22/12, you're not trying out your comfy-mod boots anywhere close to Possum Pouch (current temp 77 F) are you? cheers BB ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrutton Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Possum Pouch - where's that. Jury's a bit out on my boot mods. I think that it now takes longer for my feet to start hurting at the widest point of the boot. A bit of an improvement perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Possum Pouch - where's that. since Bobdea first used the description, tongue in cheek, in sparring with Mellow Yellow about the highly subjective nature of slope difficulty designations, there's been some question about whether it's actually the "Tarheel State" with its official dog, the Plott Hound, or more a "state of mind" kind of thing. (This is all complicated by the fact that there's an ongoing discussion between "the Old North State" and our "Palmetto State" brothers and sisters to the south about the actual whereabouts of the boundary that has separated us lo these several centuries. It seems that many of the great oaks and other organic references on the original King's Grant survey have either disappeared or morphed unrecognizably.) So far, we've spent $850,000 in an effort to sort all this out, and tempers are flaring as The Line moves around. Taxes and school districts, you know... Personally, I prefer to think of Possum Pouch as simply the East Coast's Southernmost Carve Outpost - weather permitting. I'll leave it at that ... BB Edited March 26, 2012 by boarderboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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